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Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



message unavailable

chad
Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



And <fourthrounds_at_toontoon.com> wrote in news:cbiahr$303c$678
@news.nextra.cz:

Quote:
As our treat, want to stroke Maggie Simpson's pussy?

I'm sure RedDog would love to!

Quote:

Though I think he really has a thing for Apu.

Todd H.
Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



NOSPAM_at_invalid.com (Michael) writes:

Quote:
Hi all!

What's the difference in "gates density" between a typical
CPU L1 cache and on chip static RAM?

All depends on the layout and the technology. L1 cache is made up
of SRAM cells after all..plus supporting logic for the tag and
matching logic, so you can expect the overall transistor density to be
lower on a cache than plain SRAM "field" that doesn't have the metal
interconnect that the logic gates would.

Quote:
I mean.. how many logic gates are necessary for e.g. 4 KB
of 80486-style L1 cache, and how many for embedded SRAM?

I was a standalone full-custom SRAM chip designer7, so I'm afraid I
don't know what sort of SRAM cell the 486 used for its L1 cache. I'd
be shocked if the sram cells were made of logic gates, though, I can
say that.

Quote:
I guess that for the latter it's no less than 65536 gates
(please feel free to provide an exact value!), but for the
L1 cache of equivalent size, how many gates are necessary?
(with gates I mean basic NAND gates).

Basic SRAM cells can be made of 4 transitors with 2 resistive pull up
devices, or using 6 (4 n, 2 p) transistors in CMOS, or using 4 n
transistors and 2 thin film transistors for the the pull-up load. Or
I suppose you could easily do one with gates, but if you need a lot of
them, the geometric economy goes to crap because you end up with some
big assed cells.

I believe most CPU's and MCU's use an SRAM cache "macro" in their
layout...which means the SRAM portion for the caches is custom
designed (probably still at the transistor level, I'd have to think)
and laid out in a modular way so that they can be plopped into the
layout of a CPU. Memory design specialists design the macro and CPU
architects and layout designers drop the macro onto the chip layout
and hook it up from there.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Mike Seningen
Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



Cache needs some sort of tag to know what line in memory it is
referencing. SRAM is the memory location itself.

Other than that -- the two can be identical.

m.


Michael wrote:
Quote:
Hi all!

What's the difference in "gates density" between a typical
CPU L1 cache and on chip static RAM?

I mean.. how many logic gates are necessary for e.g. 4 KB
of 80486-style L1 cache, and how many for embedded SRAM?

I guess that for the latter it's no less than 65536 gates
(please feel free to provide an exact value!), but for the
L1 cache of equivalent size, how many gates are necessary?
(with gates I mean basic NAND gates).

Thank you!
Mike


Todd H.
Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



NOSPAM_at_invalid.com (Michael) writes:
Quote:
Hi all!

What's the difference in "gates density" between a typical CPU L1
cache and on chip static RAM?

I mean.. how many logic gates are necessary for e.g. 4 KB of
80486-style L1 cache, and how many for embedded SRAM?

I guess that for the latter it's no less than 65536 gates (please
feel free to provide an exact value!), but for the L1 cache of
equivalent size, how many gates are necessary? (with gates I mean
basic NAND gates).

I highly doubt that you'll find the SRAM macros tha go into modern
CPU's being build from gates. I believe they're designed full custom
at the transistor level because density is way too important.

You need at least 4 transistors to make an SRAM cell, plus 2 more
thingees--be they resistive pull-ups or thin film transistors for the
pull-up load.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

John K.
Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



Hi Alex Gibson (alxx_at_ihug.com.au), you wrote:

Quote:
in project navigator
->new source ->schematic type in the name of the file for it to create
click okay
ecs (xilinx schematic editor) will start up and you
can start drawing up your schematic.

Maybe it's because I'm using the v5.2.03i of the free WebPack, but
I can't find any schematic option in the New Source window. :(

I can see only:

User Document
BMM File
MEM File
Implementation Constraints File


Quote:
with webpack the major hassle is simulating a schematic design.
You have to convert your design to vhdl or verilog so
modelsim can load your design.

Altera's software is much better for simulating schematics than
xilinx's.

Yup, I'm thinking to dump Xilinx and go with Altera instead. But
it's very confusing for me to find the right target device. What
would be a rough equivalent of the Spartan 2E 300? Altera has so
many families that it's very confusing (at least for me).

Moreover, what about programmers and development boards? My former
choice for Xilinx was motivated by the large (till 10 millions of
equivalent (fake, I know) gates!) rich choice of sizes, the low
cost development boards (like the ones from Digilent and Burched)
with integrated programmer. I need cheap, for the moment.

One thing, though, that puzzled me is why similar designs to the
one I have in mind, i.e. the C-One and XGameStation, both use
Altera devices. No, I won't ask if they're superior than Xilinx
(or inferior, for the matter Smile ) to avoid to cause a possible
very boring flamewar here. Wink
What I really ask is instead if Altera devices are suitable for
low budget development (just to get confident with the FPGA world)
using schematic entry and simulation, and if then they will offer
the power to do serious stuff, without having to dump it all and
change brand/family of chips. Moreover, why not Actel or Lattice/
Vantis, or why not Lucent or QuickLogic (just to name those that
I heard the existance of and visited thousands times the website
of, without much results anyway)?
Moreover, if I go with Altera, which are the families roughly
equivalent in specs to the Spartan 2E and Virtex of Xilinx?

Thanks a lot for all your big patience and help!

Greets,
John

John K.
Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



Hi David Brown (david_at_no.westcontrol.spam.com), you wrote:
Quote:

"John K." <INVALIDANTISPAM_at_aol.com> wrote in message
news:bj9sb1$gc4bj$1_at_ID-50260.news.uni-berlin.de...

Hello people,

I am strictly a schematic user, please don't turn this thread
into a "but HDLs are really better!!".

I know you don't want to hear this, but I'll try to give a reasoned
arguement rather than a blanket statement.

I always liked reasoned arguements.. go ahead. :)


Quote:
As fpgas get bigger and bigger, there is no doubt that most designers are
using hdls rather than schematics (or sometimes a mixture). For big
systems, there are few that are made using pure schematics.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand what makes inherently
more difficult to use schematic than HDL as projects get larger.

I think in a "object oriented" way.. for example, I make Flip-Flops from
NAND gates. So I get a Flip-Flop object. I make registers/latches from
Flip-Flops, so I get a Latch object. I mean, complexity can naturally
get encapsulated and encapsulated, till you have a whole ALU, or a whole
processor, etc.. and your schematic always looks simple (circuits and
subcircuits encapsulated into virtual devices).
I don't have much experience with current schematic software (I used
mostly my own.. nothing fancy anyway, but worked well for encapsulating
at least), but I see no reason why schematic based (using macros) should
be any slower or more confusing than HDLs?

I can only think about one problem: simulation gets slower and slower.
But neither this must be true: if simulating a whole Latch via NAND
gates may be slow, after I know it works well and I have its timing
characteristics known, I can encapsulate also them into the "black
box" and simulation of a Latch will be very quick.. having just to
simulate the function (and delays) from input to output.

HDL's IMHO are very confusing, hardware wise. A schematic is much more
natural and intuitive. IMHO of course.

On the other hand the non-intuitive, too abstract HDLs will make you
design things that then in silicon are very inefficient.. will not
give you a good "big, real picture" of what you're doing, etc..


Quote:
This means that
tool designers will put far more effort into the HDL support for their tools
than schematic support.

Yep, and that just makes me think that the problem is not in the
schematic idea per se, but in the current software.

This is a typical situation for the usual "no programs satisfied my needs,
so I wrote my own". :D

Too bad I don't have that much free time.. so I'd prefer to stick with
something already available. I have my own schematic based simulator but
its editor is nothing mature at all, and it's missing many features.


Quote:
I haven't tried doing schematic design for an fpga,
so I can't comment directly, but I have heard complaints on this newsgroup
about the quality of the schematic tools for some fpgas. It also means that
if you are learning about fpgas, there is a lot to be said for looking at
using HDLs - you are going to get better tool support, better online
tutorials and introductions, and end up with a more useful skill.

Right, I feel much "out of the world" by not following the HDL route.. but
I can't help.. it's a hobbyst project and I have to enjoy it. This definitely
means "no HDLs". ;)


Quote:
If you really want to use schematics, it may be that the best route is to do
the design using your current schematic design software and then use edif
netlists to import it into the fpga toolkit - I'm sure there are others in
this group who could give you ideas there.

That's very interesting. Please, can you elaborate more on this?

You mean that I could do schematic entry and schematic simulation on any
software that is able to save in EDIF format? What would be the best software
(simulation-wise) capable of it, can you name a few?

And then I could load the EDIF file into Webpack (?) and from there what
should I do? Is further simulation (more FPGA-device targetted) possible?

How could I express things like block-ram in the former schematic program,
if it's quite totally separed from the back-end tools?

Thanks for your time!
John

cfk
Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



Dear John:

One way to accomplish this task is to use a schematic editor that
outputs a netlist in a format consistent with a toolflow that eventually
gets you to an FPGA.

Many of the tools, including WebPack do this. You can design a schematic
and output as its netlist format, verilog, vhdl, edif or others.

But, I suspect your question is really deeper then this.

I was at a similar point a while back. I have studied several tool sets
over the last year including WebPack, ISE, Synopsys, LEDIT, Icarus,
Modeltech, XCircuit, Magic, LASI, ICFB and others. It may very well be that
the real question you are asking is how do the various tools flow together
in order to allow me to express my ideas in a way that can be realized in an
FPGA or ASIC.

There are many answers to that question. Personally, I find the answer
seems to be one of jumping into the tools with a vigor and figuring out what
they do. If I dont do this, then I spend virtually *all of my time* arguing
whether:WebPAck vs ISE, ISE vs Synopsys, Orcad as schematic editor, Icarus
vs Synplicity, Cadence vs Mentor, (Linux vs windows)

All of which is a waste of time.

So, just pick a path an go. It doesnt really matter which path you pick. But
when you pick a path, let us know and we can help guide you a bit.

Charles


"John K." <INVALIDANTISPAM_at_aol.com> wrote in message
news:bj9sb2$gc4bj$3_at_ID-50260.news.uni-berlin.de...
Quote:

Hello people,

I am strictly a schematic user, please don't turn this thread
into a "but HDLs are really better!!".
I'd like to get a new hobby, i.e. to design some (simple for
now, but then also complex) devices on a SpartanII 300E board.
The kind of devices I'd like to design range from TTL style at
the begin, till, someday, complete CPUs and simple multimedia
devices (e.g. graphic chips as seen in the '80s home computers).

I downloaded and installed Webpack, but I've been very
disappointed. It looks totally HDL oriented to me.. maybe
I'm wrong, but I couldn't see there what I'm looking for.

What I'm looking for (pardon the redundancy) is a simple
but yet powerful editor that will let me enter a schematic
(NAND gates, Flip-Flops, etc..); will also let me make new
devices from schematics (i.e. macros!); then *possibly*
simulate all of that; and then finally burn it into my
SpartanIIE chip, letting me also setup various features
of the FPGA (e.g. how to load the initial contents of
block RAM, etc..).

I have some money to invest, eventually, if the software
is not free.. but I'd like to know all the options before.

Please.. can anybody shed some light? I'm very confused
and lost..

Greets,
John


Hua
Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



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download-ein-trojaner-virus-und-es-gibt_at_meine-wahrheit-deine-wahrheit.de (http://tinyurl.com/6r9ez) wrote:
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Guest

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm   



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Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:43 am   



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Midvd
Guest

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:35 pm   



In article <51f8562a.0411110343.2520f66b_at_posting.google.com>
download-ein-trojaner-virus-und-es-gibt_at_meine-wahrheit-deine-wahrheit.de (http://tinyurl.com/6r9ez) wrote:
Quote:

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Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:29 am   



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> > > > > > > > parker alias evon lindt herzog_at_yahoo.com matt parker alias best day isnow_at_yahoo.com mat

Amos
Guest

Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:52 pm   



In article <51f8562a.0411120329.2a154387_at_posting.google.com>
download-ein-trojaner-virus-und-es-gibt_at_meine-wahrheit-deine-wahrheit.de (http://tinyurl.com/6r9ez) wrote:
Quote:

matt parker alias erikvon lint_at_yahoo.com matt parker alias


Yawn.

Ariane
Guest

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:30 am   



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My nude Pics!!!
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