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Guest

Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:46 pm   



Den lørdag den 3. september 2016 kl. 03.45.13 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
Quote:
On 9/2/2016 8:08 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den lørdag den 3. september 2016 kl. 01.37.56 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/2/2016 4:01 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den fredag den 2. september 2016 kl. 08.39.20 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/1/2016 7:22 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den fredag den 2. september 2016 kl. 00.40.28 UTC+2 skrev
rickman:
On 9/1/2016 4:24 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2016 13:19:09 -0700, lasselangwadtchristensen
wrote:

Den torsdag den 1. september 2016 kl. 21.53.33 UTC+2 skrev
Tim Wescott:
There's a method that I know, but can't remember the
name. And now I want to tell someone to Google for it.

It basically starts with the notion of multiplying by
shift-and-add, but uses the fact that if you shift and
then either add or subtract, you can minimize "addition"
operations.

I.e., 255 = 256 - 1, 244 = 256 - 16 + 4, etc.


Booth?

-Lasse

That's it. Thanks.

That is very familiar from college, but I don't recall the
utility. It would be useful for multiplying by constants, but
otherwise how would this be used to advantage? It would save
add/subtract operations, but I can't think of another situation
where this would be useful.

If the algorithm is doing an add and shift, the add does not
increase the time or the hardware. If building the full
multiplier, an adder is included for each stage, it is either
used or not used. When done in software, the same applies. It
is easier to do the add than to skip over it.

you only need half the stages so it is half the size* and the
critical path through your adders are only half as long

I think you need to look at the algorithm again. The degenerate
case is a multiplier with alternating ones and zeros. An add or
subtract is needed at each 1->0 or 0->1 transition. Since every
bit is a transition you still need an adder/subtractor for every
bit.

Of course you could add logic to detect these cases and do fewer
adder ops, but then that is not Booth's algorithm anymore and is
much more complex. Booth's algorithm looks at pairs of bits in the
multiplier, this would require looking at more bits.


you are right, I was thinking of "modified Booth" it looks at 3 bits
at a time,

http://www.ellab.physics.upatras.gr/~bakalis/Eudoxus/mbm8.gif


If you are thinking in terms of constant multiplication then again,
this is a modified method that combines Booth's with straight
adds.


* you need a few multiplexors to choose between x1 and x2,
subtract is invert and carry in

Multiplexers are not low cost in any sense in many technologies,
but it doesn't matter. Booth's algorithm doesn't use
multiplexers.

may not be low cost, but compared to a full adder?

In an FPGA the unit of size is the Logic Cell (LC), a LUT and a FF.
Because there is extra carry logic in the LC one bit of an adder is the
same logic as one bit of a multiplexer. The only disadvantage of an
adder is the carry propagation time, but they don't cascade, properly
designed you end up with one ripple cascade through one adder and then
the other logic delays as the adders all cascade in parallel.

sure most fpgas have fast carry chains or build in multipliers so hand
coding "fancy" multiplier structures might not come out ahead



and since the inputs come from the multiplicand and the multiplier
not from other intermediate results it shouldn't be in the critical
path

???

I don't see how you use multiplexers instead of adders. If the
multiplier changes from one calculation to the next you need adders in
every position. If the multiplier is fixed the combinations of sums is
fixed and no multiplexers are needed.

with a regular multiplier you have to go through N layers of adders
with a modified Booth you only have to go through N/2 adders

and N/2 multiplexers which have the same delay... PLUS the selectable
inverter which may or may not be combined with the adder. What's the
point?


the multiplexers get their input from the multiplicant not the output
of the previous adder

Quote:
A simple adder has N stages of delay in an FPGA, same as the
much more complicated modified Booth's adder. In an ASIC there may be
some advantage. In software, I expect the much more complicated control
will make the modified Booth's algorithm the slowest of the three.


agreed

> People so often forget that multiplexers are not trivial logic.

I think the main purpose of modified booth is speed not size

-Lasse


Guest

Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:44 am   



Den søndag den 4. september 2016 kl. 00.10.56 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
Quote:
On 9/3/2016 8:46 AM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den lørdag den 3. september 2016 kl. 03.45.13 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/2/2016 8:08 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den lørdag den 3. september 2016 kl. 01.37.56 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/2/2016 4:01 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den fredag den 2. september 2016 kl. 08.39.20 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/1/2016 7:22 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den fredag den 2. september 2016 kl. 00.40.28 UTC+2 skrev
rickman:
On 9/1/2016 4:24 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2016 13:19:09 -0700, lasselangwadtchristensen
wrote:

Den torsdag den 1. september 2016 kl. 21.53.33 UTC+2 skrev
Tim Wescott:
There's a method that I know, but can't remember the
name. And now I want to tell someone to Google for it.

It basically starts with the notion of multiplying by
shift-and-add, but uses the fact that if you shift and
then either add or subtract, you can minimize "addition"
operations.

I.e., 255 = 256 - 1, 244 = 256 - 16 + 4, etc.


Booth?

-Lasse

That's it. Thanks.

That is very familiar from college, but I don't recall the
utility. It would be useful for multiplying by constants, but
otherwise how would this be used to advantage? It would save
add/subtract operations, but I can't think of another situation
where this would be useful.

If the algorithm is doing an add and shift, the add does not
increase the time or the hardware. If building the full
multiplier, an adder is included for each stage, it is either
used or not used. When done in software, the same applies. It
is easier to do the add than to skip over it.

you only need half the stages so it is half the size* and the
critical path through your adders are only half as long

I think you need to look at the algorithm again. The degenerate
case is a multiplier with alternating ones and zeros. An add or
subtract is needed at each 1->0 or 0->1 transition. Since every
bit is a transition you still need an adder/subtractor for every
bit.

Of course you could add logic to detect these cases and do fewer
adder ops, but then that is not Booth's algorithm anymore and is
much more complex. Booth's algorithm looks at pairs of bits in the
multiplier, this would require looking at more bits.


you are right, I was thinking of "modified Booth" it looks at 3 bits
at a time,

http://www.ellab.physics.upatras.gr/~bakalis/Eudoxus/mbm8.gif


If you are thinking in terms of constant multiplication then again,
this is a modified method that combines Booth's with straight
adds.


* you need a few multiplexors to choose between x1 and x2,
subtract is invert and carry in

Multiplexers are not low cost in any sense in many technologies,
but it doesn't matter. Booth's algorithm doesn't use
multiplexers.

may not be low cost, but compared to a full adder?

In an FPGA the unit of size is the Logic Cell (LC), a LUT and a FF.
Because there is extra carry logic in the LC one bit of an adder is the
same logic as one bit of a multiplexer. The only disadvantage of an
adder is the carry propagation time, but they don't cascade, properly
designed you end up with one ripple cascade through one adder and then
the other logic delays as the adders all cascade in parallel.

sure most fpgas have fast carry chains or build in multipliers so hand
coding "fancy" multiplier structures might not come out ahead



and since the inputs come from the multiplicand and the multiplier
not from other intermediate results it shouldn't be in the critical
path

???

I don't see how you use multiplexers instead of adders. If the
multiplier changes from one calculation to the next you need adders in
every position. If the multiplier is fixed the combinations of sums is
fixed and no multiplexers are needed.

with a regular multiplier you have to go through N layers of adders
with a modified Booth you only have to go through N/2 adders

and N/2 multiplexers which have the same delay... PLUS the selectable
inverter which may or may not be combined with the adder. What's the
point?

the multiplexers get their input from the multiplicant not the output
of the previous adder

Look at your diagram again. The multiplexer is muxing the output of the
previous stage or the output of the stage prior to that if the previous
stage is skipped. The multiplicand is the other input to the adder and
the control signal is derived from the multiplier which means there is
an added level of delay into the first stage with then has to ripple
through the entire structure. The multiplexers *must* be in the path of
the additions.


the multiplexers can be moved to multiplicand, adding zero is the same as skipping

http://www.ellab.physics.upatras.gr/~bakalis/Eudoxus/mbm8.gif

Quote:

A simple adder has N stages of delay in an FPGA, same as the
much more complicated modified Booth's adder. In an ASIC there may be
some advantage. In software, I expect the much more complicated control
will make the modified Booth's algorithm the slowest of the three.

agreed

People so often forget that multiplexers are not trivial logic.

I think the main purpose of modified booth is speed not size

I'm not sure how much faster a multiplexer is compared to the adder.
Even if you bypass a bunch of adders, you pass through an equivalent
number of muxes.


I'm still talking modified Booth, it halfs the number of layers

-Lasse

rickman
Guest

Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:10 am   



On 9/3/2016 8:46 AM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
Den lørdag den 3. september 2016 kl. 03.45.13 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/2/2016 8:08 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den lørdag den 3. september 2016 kl. 01.37.56 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/2/2016 4:01 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den fredag den 2. september 2016 kl. 08.39.20 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/1/2016 7:22 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den fredag den 2. september 2016 kl. 00.40.28 UTC+2 skrev
rickman:
On 9/1/2016 4:24 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2016 13:19:09 -0700, lasselangwadtchristensen
wrote:

Den torsdag den 1. september 2016 kl. 21.53.33 UTC+2 skrev
Tim Wescott:
There's a method that I know, but can't remember the
name. And now I want to tell someone to Google for it.

It basically starts with the notion of multiplying by
shift-and-add, but uses the fact that if you shift and
then either add or subtract, you can minimize "addition"
operations.

I.e., 255 = 256 - 1, 244 = 256 - 16 + 4, etc.


Booth?

-Lasse

That's it. Thanks.

That is very familiar from college, but I don't recall the
utility. It would be useful for multiplying by constants, but
otherwise how would this be used to advantage? It would save
add/subtract operations, but I can't think of another situation
where this would be useful.

If the algorithm is doing an add and shift, the add does not
increase the time or the hardware. If building the full
multiplier, an adder is included for each stage, it is either
used or not used. When done in software, the same applies. It
is easier to do the add than to skip over it.

you only need half the stages so it is half the size* and the
critical path through your adders are only half as long

I think you need to look at the algorithm again. The degenerate
case is a multiplier with alternating ones and zeros. An add or
subtract is needed at each 1->0 or 0->1 transition. Since every
bit is a transition you still need an adder/subtractor for every
bit.

Of course you could add logic to detect these cases and do fewer
adder ops, but then that is not Booth's algorithm anymore and is
much more complex. Booth's algorithm looks at pairs of bits in the
multiplier, this would require looking at more bits.


you are right, I was thinking of "modified Booth" it looks at 3 bits
at a time,

http://www.ellab.physics.upatras.gr/~bakalis/Eudoxus/mbm8.gif


If you are thinking in terms of constant multiplication then again,
this is a modified method that combines Booth's with straight
adds.


* you need a few multiplexors to choose between x1 and x2,
subtract is invert and carry in

Multiplexers are not low cost in any sense in many technologies,
but it doesn't matter. Booth's algorithm doesn't use
multiplexers.

may not be low cost, but compared to a full adder?

In an FPGA the unit of size is the Logic Cell (LC), a LUT and a FF.
Because there is extra carry logic in the LC one bit of an adder is the
same logic as one bit of a multiplexer. The only disadvantage of an
adder is the carry propagation time, but they don't cascade, properly
designed you end up with one ripple cascade through one adder and then
the other logic delays as the adders all cascade in parallel.

sure most fpgas have fast carry chains or build in multipliers so hand
coding "fancy" multiplier structures might not come out ahead



and since the inputs come from the multiplicand and the multiplier
not from other intermediate results it shouldn't be in the critical
path

???

I don't see how you use multiplexers instead of adders. If the
multiplier changes from one calculation to the next you need adders in
every position. If the multiplier is fixed the combinations of sums is
fixed and no multiplexers are needed.

with a regular multiplier you have to go through N layers of adders
with a modified Booth you only have to go through N/2 adders

and N/2 multiplexers which have the same delay... PLUS the selectable
inverter which may or may not be combined with the adder. What's the
point?

the multiplexers get their input from the multiplicant not the output
of the previous adder


Look at your diagram again. The multiplexer is muxing the output of the
previous stage or the output of the stage prior to that if the previous
stage is skipped. The multiplicand is the other input to the adder and
the control signal is derived from the multiplier which means there is
an added level of delay into the first stage with then has to ripple
through the entire structure. The multiplexers *must* be in the path of
the additions.



Multiplicand Multiplier
| |
+--------------------+ |
| | |
| +-------+ |
| | | Control |
+----------+ | +/-/0 |-------------------+
| | | | |
| | +-------+ |
| | | |
| | +------+ |
| | | | |
| +-------+ +-------+ | +--------+ |
| \ V / | | | |
| \ +/- /----)---| Decode |---+
| \ ADD / | | | |
| \_________/ | +--------+ |
| | | |
| | +-+ |
| | | |
| +---------------+ +--------+ |
| \ / | | |
+----------+ \ MUX /----| Decode |---+
| | \ / | | |
| | +-------+ +--------+ |
| | | |
| | +------+ |
| | | | |
| +-------+ +-------+ | +--------+ |
| \ V / | | | |
| \ +/- /----)---| Decode |---+
| \ ADD / | | | |
| \_________/ | +--------+ |
| | | |
| | +-+ |
| | | |
| +---------------+ +--------+ |
| \ / | | |
+----------+ \ MUX /----| Decode |---+
| | \ / | | |
| | +-------+ +--------+ |
| | | |



Quote:
A simple adder has N stages of delay in an FPGA, same as the
much more complicated modified Booth's adder. In an ASIC there may be
some advantage. In software, I expect the much more complicated control
will make the modified Booth's algorithm the slowest of the three.

agreed

People so often forget that multiplexers are not trivial logic.

I think the main purpose of modified booth is speed not size


I'm not sure how much faster a multiplexer is compared to the adder.
Even if you bypass a bunch of adders, you pass through an equivalent
number of muxes. In an FPGA this is equivalent in speed. In an ASIC
you may see some speed advantage.

--

Rick C

Walter Banks
Guest

Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:28 am   



On 2016-09-01 4:24 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2016 13:19:09 -0700, lasselangwadtchristensen wrote:

Den torsdag den 1. september 2016 kl. 21.53.33 UTC+2 skrev Tim
Wescott:
There's a method that I know, but can't remember the name. And
now I want to tell someone to Google for it.

It basically starts with the notion of multiplying by
shift-and-add, but uses the fact that if you shift and then
either add or subtract, you can minimize "addition" operations.

I.e., 255 = 256 - 1, 244 = 256 - 16 + 4, etc.


Booth?

-Lasse

That's it. Thanks.



Bit late but it sounds like Horner decomposition. Yep that guy..

I couldn't find a quick reference on line. The notes in our compilers
for inline constant multiplies is implemented with Horners polynomial
decomposition. This requires no temporary space and only uses shifts and
adds.

I remember writing the code on a weekend on a trip where I was getting
caught up on a bunch of potentially interesting papers and it was
pouring rain. I decided this would be just as much fun anyway.

Old enough the paper is in a banker box close enough to the center that
it hasn't become nesting material for the field mice.

w..

rickman
Guest

Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:24 am   



On 9/3/2016 7:44 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
Den søndag den 4. september 2016 kl. 00.10.56 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/3/2016 8:46 AM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den lørdag den 3. september 2016 kl. 03.45.13 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/2/2016 8:08 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den lørdag den 3. september 2016 kl. 01.37.56 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/2/2016 4:01 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den fredag den 2. september 2016 kl. 08.39.20 UTC+2 skrev rickman:
On 9/1/2016 7:22 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen_at_gmail.com wrote:
Den fredag den 2. september 2016 kl. 00.40.28 UTC+2 skrev
rickman:
On 9/1/2016 4:24 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2016 13:19:09 -0700, lasselangwadtchristensen
wrote:

Den torsdag den 1. september 2016 kl. 21.53.33 UTC+2 skrev
Tim Wescott:
There's a method that I know, but can't remember the
name. And now I want to tell someone to Google for it.

It basically starts with the notion of multiplying by
shift-and-add, but uses the fact that if you shift and
then either add or subtract, you can minimize "addition"
operations.

I.e., 255 = 256 - 1, 244 = 256 - 16 + 4, etc.


Booth?

-Lasse

That's it. Thanks.

That is very familiar from college, but I don't recall the
utility. It would be useful for multiplying by constants, but
otherwise how would this be used to advantage? It would save
add/subtract operations, but I can't think of another situation
where this would be useful.

If the algorithm is doing an add and shift, the add does not
increase the time or the hardware. If building the full
multiplier, an adder is included for each stage, it is either
used or not used. When done in software, the same applies. It
is easier to do the add than to skip over it.

you only need half the stages so it is half the size* and the
critical path through your adders are only half as long

I think you need to look at the algorithm again. The degenerate
case is a multiplier with alternating ones and zeros. An add or
subtract is needed at each 1->0 or 0->1 transition. Since every
bit is a transition you still need an adder/subtractor for every
bit.

Of course you could add logic to detect these cases and do fewer
adder ops, but then that is not Booth's algorithm anymore and is
much more complex. Booth's algorithm looks at pairs of bits in the
multiplier, this would require looking at more bits.


you are right, I was thinking of "modified Booth" it looks at 3 bits
at a time,

http://www.ellab.physics.upatras.gr/~bakalis/Eudoxus/mbm8.gif


If you are thinking in terms of constant multiplication then again,
this is a modified method that combines Booth's with straight
adds.


* you need a few multiplexors to choose between x1 and x2,
subtract is invert and carry in

Multiplexers are not low cost in any sense in many technologies,
but it doesn't matter. Booth's algorithm doesn't use
multiplexers.

may not be low cost, but compared to a full adder?

In an FPGA the unit of size is the Logic Cell (LC), a LUT and a FF.
Because there is extra carry logic in the LC one bit of an adder is the
same logic as one bit of a multiplexer. The only disadvantage of an
adder is the carry propagation time, but they don't cascade, properly
designed you end up with one ripple cascade through one adder and then
the other logic delays as the adders all cascade in parallel.

sure most fpgas have fast carry chains or build in multipliers so hand
coding "fancy" multiplier structures might not come out ahead



and since the inputs come from the multiplicand and the multiplier
not from other intermediate results it shouldn't be in the critical
path

???

I don't see how you use multiplexers instead of adders. If the
multiplier changes from one calculation to the next you need adders in
every position. If the multiplier is fixed the combinations of sums is
fixed and no multiplexers are needed.

with a regular multiplier you have to go through N layers of adders
with a modified Booth you only have to go through N/2 adders

and N/2 multiplexers which have the same delay... PLUS the selectable
inverter which may or may not be combined with the adder. What's the
point?

the multiplexers get their input from the multiplicant not the output
of the previous adder

Look at your diagram again. The multiplexer is muxing the output of the
previous stage or the output of the stage prior to that if the previous
stage is skipped. The multiplicand is the other input to the adder and
the control signal is derived from the multiplier which means there is
an added level of delay into the first stage with then has to ripple
through the entire structure. The multiplexers *must* be in the path of
the additions.

the multiplexers can be moved to multiplicand, adding zero is the same as skipping

http://www.ellab.physics.upatras.gr/~bakalis/Eudoxus/mbm8.gif


This diagram is not totally clear, but it does not appear to be
implementable in an FPGA using the carry chain. Without carry chain the
adds get much slower and/or use twice as much space. The decoders and
multiplexers do result in a larger design in most FPGAs.

It might be possible to use the carry chain across the adds. This would
be difficult to code in a way that is implemented with carry chains.
Without the carry chains, the full adder bits require running through an
extra LUT both for the input and the output in the devices I have looked
at.

If this multiplier were to be pipelined, it would be exceedingly large
using 2N FFs for every stage. In that case the multiplier would also
have to be pipelined resulting in 3N FFs per stage.


Quote:
A simple adder has N stages of delay in an FPGA, same as the
much more complicated modified Booth's adder. In an ASIC there may be
some advantage. In software, I expect the much more complicated control
will make the modified Booth's algorithm the slowest of the three.

agreed

People so often forget that multiplexers are not trivial logic.

I think the main purpose of modified booth is speed not size

I'm not sure how much faster a multiplexer is compared to the adder.
Even if you bypass a bunch of adders, you pass through an equivalent
number of muxes.

I'm still talking modified Booth, it halfs the number of layers


Regardless, this is a fairly pointless exercise for FPGAs since most of
them offer hard multipliers which run much faster than multipliers in
the fabric typically. I think this would only be useful in an ASIC.

--

Rick C

Hul Tytus
Guest

Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:23 am   



If you mean 4 through 7 in a literal sense, that is scaling by those four
numbers, 4 requires 2 shifts, 5 2 shifts and an add, 6 2 shifts and an add
and seven needs 3 shifts and a subtract.

Hul

Tim Wescott <seemywebsite_at_myfooter.really> wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2016 18:40:25 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/1/2016 4:24 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2016 13:19:09 -0700, lasselangwadtchristensen wrote:

Den torsdag den 1. september 2016 kl. 21.53.33 UTC+2 skrev Tim
Wescott:
There's a method that I know, but can't remember the name. And now I
want to tell someone to Google for it.

It basically starts with the notion of multiplying by shift-and-add,
but uses the fact that if you shift and then either add or subtract,
you can minimize "addition" operations.

I.e., 255 = 256 - 1, 244 = 256 - 16 + 4, etc.


Booth?

-Lasse

That's it. Thanks.

That is very familiar from college, but I don't recall the utility. It
would be useful for multiplying by constants, but otherwise how would
this be used to advantage? It would save add/subtract operations, but I
can't think of another situation where this would be useful.

If the algorithm is doing an add and shift, the add does not increase
the time or the hardware. If building the full multiplier, an adder is
included for each stage, it is either used or not used. When done in
software, the same applies. It is easier to do the add than to skip
over it.

I asked here and on comp.arch.embedded. It's for a guy who's doing
assembly-language programming on a PIC12xxx -- for that guy, and for a
small range of constants (4 through 7), it can save time over a full-
blown multiplication algorithm.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!


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