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Milwaukee 12v impact driver fault

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Bob Engelhardt
Guest

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:45 pm   



I have the subject driver & it has excessive leakage current: 20ma more
or less. With an 1800 mah battery, that's less than 4 days of shelf
life. After I discovered this I thought that I could live with it by
not keeping the battery in the driver. That got old REAL quickly - like
twice having to put the battery in & remove it after.

So I opened it up to see what I could see:
https://imgur.com/9ccfxL0
https://imgur.com/VhIN5wY

I cleaned the board real well by scrubbing with denatured alcohol (it
was pretty dirty - it's 10 years old). No effect, so I tried heating
with a hair dryer & cooling with CO2. No effect.

It can be seen in the photos that the trigger is more than just on-off
contacts & that it can be opened. But I'm worried that there are little
springs & such inside and that I'd like to only do that at the last.

Are there any components that are likely suspects & are easily checked?
I do have an analog scope as well as a couple of DMM's. Any suggestions
at all?

Thanks, Bob

Bob Engelhardt
Guest

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:45 am   



Oh yeah ... the trigger and board replacement part costs about as much
as a new driver.

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:45 am   



On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:55:57 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
<BobEngelhardt_at_comcast.net> wrote:

>I have the subject driver

Do you also have the model number of the Milwaukee 12v impact driver?
Perhaps an M12 Fuel? GEN1 or GEN2?
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv7nr0CMAMs>

I'm trying to determine if the battery is LiIon or NiMH.
Extra credit for disclosing the model number of the battery pack and
charger.

Quote:
& it has excessive leakage current: 20ma more
or less.


Did you measure the leakage current?

Quote:
With an 1800 mah battery, that's less than 4 days of shelf
life.


I smell a NiMH battery. Since the driver and probably the battery are
10 years old, I wouldn't be surprised if the NiMH battery were dead.
Excessive self discharge current is one of the symptoms of a nearly
dead NiMH battery.

Note: Assumption is the mother of all screwups.

Quote:
It can be seen in the photos that the trigger is more than just on-off
contacts & that it can be opened.


Motor speed control. I suggest you not take it apart unless you're
certain that your surgical methods will fix the switch/control.

Quote:
But I'm worried that there are little
springs & such inside and that I'd like to only do that at the last.


Yep. That's why I suggested you not take it apart. I've dissected
similar switches and paid the price. Even when I managed to prevent
all the tiny parts from escaping, I found it very difficult to
re-assemble the switch. However, I haven't torn apart the switch in
your unspecified Milwaukee 12v impact driver, so I'm not sure if
that's going to be a problem.

>Are there any components that are likely suspects & are easily checked?

Ummm.... the battery perhaps? Charge it up and measure the voltage.
Do NOT plug it into the driver. Just let it sit for 24 hrs and
measure the voltage again. Maybe measure it again after 36 or 48 hrs.
If the unspecified model battery is an NiMH, and the voltage drops
substantially, you have a genuine dead battery.

Quote:
I do have an analog scope as well as a couple of DMM's. Any suggestions
at all?


Yep. Test the battery. If you can't test it, replace it with a
borrowed new battery. If it's a LiIon battery and tool, I get to
start over with a different set of recommendations.

>Thanks, Bob

Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl_at_cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Ralph Mowery
Guest

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:45 am   



In article <r7dco501brs_at_news2.newsguy.com>, BobEngelhardt_at_comcast.net
says...
Quote:

Oh yeah ... the trigger and board replacement part costs about as much
as a new driver.



That seems to be the problem with many devices. The repair part is very
expensive compaired to just buying a new one. Plus in the case of
battery powered devices you get new batteries.

Bob Engelhardt
Guest

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:45 am   



On 4/17/2020 7:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Quote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:55:57 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
BobEngelhardt_at_comcast.net> wrote:

I have the subject driver

Do you also have the model number of the Milwaukee 12v impact driver?
Perhaps an M12 Fuel? GEN1 or GEN2?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv7nr0CMAMs

I'm trying to determine if the battery is LiIon or NiMH.
Extra credit for disclosing the model number of the battery pack and
charger.

& it has excessive leakage current: 20ma more
or less.

Did you measure the leakage current?

With an 1800 mah battery, that's less than 4 days of shelf
life.

I smell a NiMH battery. Since the driver and probably the battery are
10 years old, I wouldn't be surprised if the NiMH battery were dead.
Excessive self discharge current is one of the symptoms of a nearly
dead NiMH battery.

Note: Assumption is the mother of all screwups.

It can be seen in the photos that the trigger is more than just on-off
contacts & that it can be opened.

Motor speed control. I suggest you not take it apart unless you're
certain that your surgical methods will fix the switch/control.

But I'm worried that there are little
springs & such inside and that I'd like to only do that at the last.

Yep. That's why I suggested you not take it apart. I've dissected
similar switches and paid the price. Even when I managed to prevent
all the tiny parts from escaping, I found it very difficult to
re-assemble the switch. However, I haven't torn apart the switch in
your unspecified Milwaukee 12v impact driver, so I'm not sure if
that's going to be a problem.

Are there any components that are likely suspects & are easily checked?

Ummm.... the battery perhaps? Charge it up and measure the voltage.
Do NOT plug it into the driver. Just let it sit for 24 hrs and
measure the voltage again. Maybe measure it again after 36 or 48 hrs.
If the unspecified model battery is an NiMH, and the voltage drops
substantially, you have a genuine dead battery.

I do have an analog scope as well as a couple of DMM's. Any suggestions
at all?

Yep. Test the battery. If you can't test it, replace it with a
borrowed new battery. If it's a LiIon battery and tool, I get to
start over with a different set of recommendations.

Thanks, Bob

Good luck.


Jeff - thanks for the reply. The driver is a GEN 0, model 2450 ...
LiIon battery. The battery is new (the original ones lasted 10 years -
no complaints there), model 48-11-2420.

The 20ma leakage was measured (DMM). A 12v 10-year-old drill was also
measured, for reference, & its leakage was less than a ma.

John-Del
Guest

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:45 am   



On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 5:56:56 PM UTC-4, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Quote:
I have the subject driver & it has excessive leakage current: 20ma more
or less. With an 1800 mah battery, that's less than 4 days of shelf
life. After I discovered this I thought that I could live with it by
not keeping the battery in the driver. That got old REAL quickly - like
twice having to put the battery in & remove it after.

So I opened it up to see what I could see:
https://imgur.com/9ccfxL0
https://imgur.com/VhIN5wY

I cleaned the board real well by scrubbing with denatured alcohol (it
was pretty dirty - it's 10 years old). No effect, so I tried heating
with a hair dryer & cooling with CO2. No effect.

It can be seen in the photos that the trigger is more than just on-off
contacts & that it can be opened. But I'm worried that there are little
springs & such inside and that I'd like to only do that at the last.

Are there any components that are likely suspects & are easily checked?
I do have an analog scope as well as a couple of DMM's. Any suggestions
at all?

Thanks, Bob


I have an old Craftsman drill/screwdriver that I use daily, and it does the same. But, if I pull on the trigger, that last mm or two of play stops it. I've gotten used to using the forward/neutral/reverse switch. In neutral, it draws zip.

Bored, I took it apart a couple of months ago and found a cracked post inside the switch/speed control assy. Part not available, so I'll use as is until it croaks.

Bob Engelhardt
Guest

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:45 pm   



On 4/18/2020 6:03 AM, John-Del wrote:
> I have an old Craftsman drill/screwdriver that I use daily, and it does the same. But, if I pull on the trigger, that last mm or two of play stops it. I've gotten used to using the forward/neutral/reverse switch. In neutral, it draws zip.

Thanks for the tip. I tried pulling and putting it in neutral - no
effect, but worth a try.

> Bored, I took it apart a couple of months ago and found a cracked post inside the switch/speed control assy. Part not available, so I'll use as is until it croaks.

I fear that it's something like that with mine. But I'm not going to
live with pulling the battery when not in use, so I'll probably get a
new one. Which wouldn't be so bad, after all.

John-Del
Guest

Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:45 pm   



On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 1:29:21 PM UTC-4, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Quote:
On 4/18/2020 6:03 AM, John-Del wrote:
I have an old Craftsman drill/screwdriver that I use daily, and it does the same. But, if I pull on the trigger, that last mm or two of play stops it. I've gotten used to using the forward/neutral/reverse switch. In neutral, it draws zip.

Thanks for the tip. I tried pulling and putting it in neutral - no
effect, but worth a try.

Bored, I took it apart a couple of months ago and found a cracked post inside the switch/speed control assy. Part not available, so I'll use as is until it croaks.

I fear that it's something like that with mine. But I'm not going to
live with pulling the battery when not in use, so I'll probably get a
new one. Which wouldn't be so bad, after all.


Probably the best bet, particularly when the cost of repair comes close to buying the same tool over again. And as Ralph pointed out, you get a new battery as well. If it's the same exact tool, you'll also have some parts.

Fred McKenzie
Guest

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:45 pm   



In article <3ea479c4-7864-4e6e-abc6-f01ad2637987_at_googlegroups.com>,
John-Del <ohger1s_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
I have an old Craftsman drill/screwdriver that I use daily, and it does the
same. But, if I pull on the trigger, that last mm or two of play stops it.
I've gotten used to using the forward/neutral/reverse switch. In neutral, it
draws zip.

Bored, I took it apart a couple of months ago and found a cracked post inside
the switch/speed control assy. Part not available, so I'll use as is until
it croaks.


Sorry to change the subject, but it may be possible to obtain a Sears
part if you know the actual manufacturer.

A sears part number usually contains a 3 or 4 digit manufacture's source
number, a decimal, and a multi-digit part number.

Here is a list of Sears Source Numbers:

001 Stevens
002 Lemont Industries
071 Agri-Fab Corp
093 Ametek
002 Lemont Industries
101 Atlas Press Co.
102 Walker Turner
103 Sarlo Power Mower Inc.
106 Whirlpool
108 Covel Mfg. Co.
109 AA Engineering
110 Whirlpool
111 Watson Mfg Co.
112 Parks Tool Co. (Woodworking equipment)
113 Emerson Electric Co.
114 Pioneer Gen-E-Motor
115 Rixon
116 Matsushita
119 Frigidaire
121 Dille & McGuire
122 Blair Mfg.
123 Yard-Man
128 E.T. Rugg
129 Mono Mfg. Co
131 Rally/Roper Lawn (American Yard Prod.)
133 American Yard Products
135 Skil/Bosch
136 Toro Mfg. Co
137 Rexon
139 Chamberlain
143 Tecumseh (Lauson Power Prod. Co.)
144 Trane
145 Country Manufacturing
147 Village Blacksmith (Div. of McGraw Edison)
149 Amt
150 White Consolidated
153 State Industries
155 preway
160 Wisconsin Magneto
161 Nakajima
171 Vermont American
174 Caloric
175 Bissell
176 Murata
180 Lambert Corp.
187 White Consolidated
190 Pioneer
198 Whirlpool
202 Gannon Mfg. Co.
204 Iona
214 Bissell
216 Phonemate
217 Eska Outboards
219 MTD
222 Panasonic Video/Audio
225 Outboard by Chrysler/Force
233 Broan
234 Beard-Poulon & Lazy Boy
235 Ingersoll Rand
241 Fimco
247 MTD-Modern Tool and Die (not MID)
250 J.I. Case
253 Gibson (now Frigidare)
256 Emerson Electric
257 Allegretti & Co. & Paramount
264 Emerson Electric
268 Brother International
271 Kioritz Corp. - Echo
274 RCA
278 GE
281 Electro-Aire
283 Thomas Industries
289 Sharp
291 American Lawn Mower
292 Lennox
294 Tunturi
302 IBM
304 Funai
306 Belsaw
312 GTE
315 Ryan
316 Ryobi
317 Makita
319 Hand Tools International
329 Inventa
330 Apple
328 McLane
329 Ametek
334 Commodore
335 Amana
336 Electrolux
340 Necchi
342 York
351 Colovos Co.
253 White Consolidated
355 Roper Outdoor
358 Beaird - Poulan, Inc.
359 Bolens Products Div.
362 General Electric
363 General Electric
365 US Lawn
366 Koss Eletronics
367 AT&T
372 Zeus Generator Co.
374 Diversified Products
378 Omark (Oregon)
380 Moto-Mower, Inc./Subsidiary of Dura Corp.
385 Jamac
387 White Rodgers
390 King-O-Lawn
401 Bissell
410 John Bean Food Mach. & Chem.
415 Char Broil
417 Stover Engine Works
426 Parker Sweeper
445 Melmer
452 AT&T
457 Code-A-Phone
459 Technics
464 GE
471 Bionaire
472 Dremel
473 Quincy Compressor
474 Sony
476 Coleman
480 Bose
484 Airtemp
486 Agri-Fab
490 Indiana Steel
498 Didier Mfg. Co.
500 Briggs & Stratton Corp.
502 Murray Ohio
509 Payne
517 Homelite/Jacobsen
521 E Z Rake Co.
523 MGM Technology
534 Clausing Lathe (Former Atlas Press Co.)
536 Western Tool & Stamping (Before AMF Lawn & Garden Div.)
538 AMF and or Murray
549 Midwest Ind
552 Cobra
562 Toshiba
564 Sanyo
565 Sanyo
566 Packard Bell
568 Panasonic
572 Dremel
575 Sharp
576 D & M (now Frigidaire)
580 Generac Corporation
582 Clinton Engine Co.
583 Remington/Desa
586 Panasonic Office Equip.
587 White Consolidated
596 Amana
604 Digital Equipment Co.
610 Ohio Steel Fabrication
613 Consolidated Technologies
619 Arps Corp.
809 AMF
860 Eureka Company
864 Zenith
867 C1imette
871 Smith Corona
879 Rheem/Rudd
900 Black and Decker
911 General Electric
917 Roper Corp. (American Yard Prod.
919 DeVilbiss
922 Original Tractor Cab Co.
923 Hewlett Packard
934 Century Mfg Co.
937 Sunbeam (now Air Cap Ind.)
950 Laser (V-TECH)
960 Caloric
973 Ryobi
987 Troy Bilt/Garden Way
988 Kubota
989 McCullogh
990 Ford
991 Lawnboy
2018 Furnas Electric (Reversing Switch)
7075 Prestolite Battery
7287 Emerson Electric
7296 Emerson Electric

Mike S
Guest

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:45 am   



On 4/18/2020 11:49 AM, John-Del wrote:
Quote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 1:29:21 PM UTC-4, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 4/18/2020 6:03 AM, John-Del wrote:
I have an old Craftsman drill/screwdriver that I use daily, and it does the same. But, if I pull on the trigger, that last mm or two of play stops it. I've gotten used to using the forward/neutral/reverse switch. In neutral, it draws zip.

Thanks for the tip. I tried pulling and putting it in neutral - no
effect, but worth a try.

Bored, I took it apart a couple of months ago and found a cracked post inside the switch/speed control assy. Part not available, so I'll use as is until it croaks.

I fear that it's something like that with mine. But I'm not going to
live with pulling the battery when not in use, so I'll probably get a
new one. Which wouldn't be so bad, after all.

Probably the best bet, particularly when the cost of repair comes close to buying the same tool over again. And as Ralph pointed out, you get a new battery as well. If it's the same exact tool, you'll also have some parts.

What about installing an on/off switch to isolate the battery from the
pcb when not in use?

Bob Engelhardt
Guest

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:45 pm   



On 4/19/2020 2:29 AM, Mike S wrote:
Quote:
What about installing an on/off switch to isolate the battery from the
pcb when not in use?


That's a good idea - thanks. Wouldn't be the 1st time that I've done a
bodge like that Cool I'll look into it.

Bob Engelhardt
Guest

Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:45 pm   



On 4/17/2020 5:55 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Quote:
I have the subject driver & it has excessive leakage current: 20ma more
or less.  ...
So I opened it up to see what I could see:
https://imgur.com/9ccfxL0
...


With nothing to lose, I started isolating elements by disconnecting the
trigger wires. There was no change in the leakage current - it wasn't
the switch that was bad. In addition to the heavy motor-current wires
going to the PCB, there was a much lighter (24ga maybe) wire.
Unsoldering that stopped the leakage. IOW, the leakage was internal to
the board.

It was 10 years old & much used, so I got my money's worth. It was also
a favorite tool, so another one is going to be ordered; a
latest-and-greatest one.

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:45 pm   



On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 12:35:01 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
<BobEngelhardt_at_comcast.net> wrote:

Quote:
On 4/17/2020 5:55 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
I have the subject driver & it has excessive leakage current: 20ma more
or less. ...
So I opened it up to see what I could see:
https://imgur.com/9ccfxL0
...

With nothing to lose, I started isolating elements by disconnecting the
trigger wires. There was no change in the leakage current - it wasn't
the switch that was bad. In addition to the heavy motor-current wires
going to the PCB, there was a much lighter (24ga maybe) wire.
Unsoldering that stopped the leakage. IOW, the leakage was internal to
the board.

It was 10 years old & much used, so I got my money's worth. It was also
a favorite tool, so another one is going to be ordered; a
latest-and-greatest one.


This tool?
<https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Drivers/2450-20>
The 2450-20 is the original M12 model. The 2450-22 is the laster Gen
2 model.

The switch and PCB assembly is available:
<https://www.mmtoolparts.com/store/media/diagram/files/2450-20_b59a.pdf>
<https://www.mmtoolparts.com/store/media/diagram/files/2450-20_b59b.pdf>
<https://www.mmtoolparts.com/store/media/diagram/files/2450-20_b59c.pdf>
Note that there are 3 models.
2450-20 B59A
2450-20 B59B
2450-20 B59C
I'm not sure I have the correct diagram to match your trunacted model
number.
The PCB (item #5) costs as much as a replacement driver:
<https://www.mmtoolparts.com/store/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=14-46-1705>

Maybe you should consider buying a parts driver and swap PCB's?
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/Milwaukee-12v-1-4-Cordless-Hex-Impact-Driver-2450-20-M12-for-Parts-or-Repair/153907966118>
$24 is too much. Off the seller some lesser amount and shipping. He
says it "doesn't work" which can mean anything. Ask for details.

More of the same:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/MILWAUKEE-2462-20-M12-Li-Ion-1-4-Cordless-Hex-Impact-Driver-Tool/223983067307>
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/Milwaukee-2450-20-M12-12v-Impact-Driver-Bare-Tool/274303290853>
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=milwaukee+m12+2450-20>
(dig through the listings).

Good luck.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl_at_cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Bob Engelhardt
Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:45 pm   



On 4/26/2020 1:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Quote:
This tool?
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Drivers/2450-20
The 2450-20 is the original M12 model. The 2450-22 is the laster Gen
2 model. ....


2450 is the base model number. The -20 or -22 means bare tool or kit.
The 2450 is not longer available - the 2462 is its direct descendant.
The 2553 is the latest and greatest.

The 2450 PCB part - $60
A 2462-20 (Amazon) - $50 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E6JRJUO/
A 2553-20 (Amazon) - $99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077ZYMK1W/

My nature is reactionary: the old has been good, why do I need the new?
But I fight that & in this case I'm going for the 2553.

Quote:
Maybe you should consider buying a parts driver and swap PCB's?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Milwaukee-12v-1-4-Cordless-Hex-Impact-Driver-2450-20-M12-for-Parts-or-Repair/153907966118
... He says it "doesn't work" which can mean anything. Ask for details. ...


I volunteer at Habitat and Milwaukee has a deal with them whereby
Habitat gets tools from the Milwaukee return/refurb facility for next to
nothing. I get to repair some of those tools and the majority have bad
switch-PCB assemblies. So I would not ever take a chance with a
doesn't-work eBay tool.

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