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Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



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Sylvia Else
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:

Quote:
First off, electrons aren't 'stationary'. They're always moving. And
then you can't 'observe' them because the act of observing them disturbs
them. It's the old Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

The old "disturbance model" of quantum mechanics? That's been know to be
wrong almost since the dawn of the subject.

Sylvia.

Precious Pup
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



"R. Steve Walz" wrote:

Quote:
They have a RIGHT to what they demand, because
it's not even for them when they take it home!!

What fantasy land are you living in?

Quote:
You are a dullard.

Having fun yet, shithead?

Yes.

Quote:
I WAS among the brightest elite of students,...

You may have been a bright kid in the dumb kids school. But that's about it.

Quote:
...but of course NO one asks ME!

Have you ever asked yourself: why?

Quote:
You're fucking deluded with Rightist Nazi crap!

Humorous, considering you're a Hilter-wannabe.

Quote:
Many are simply incompetent to
teach the subjects they're teaching.
--------------------
I don't know one and I dare you to show me one.

So again: What fantasy land are you living in? There are good teachers and hapless teachers.

Quote:
Teaching is VERY different from knowing how to do it yourself.
They are NOT the same thing.

Hey, there's a philosophy to live by: "Let the blind lead the blind and we'll all be better off."

Quote:
You have no idea what "commies" do,...

Rather, you don't.

Quote:
Keith R. Williams wrote:
You're a hopeless nut.

That much is true. All that is left is the fun of it.

Quote:
And the supposed "choice" to teach and suffer shitty conditions as
a graduate of a university is not a fair one,...

Since I don't really take stock in you, I've forgotten what you said "fair" was. Would you please go on
another rambling diatribe defining what "fair" is?

Quote:
To AT LEAST guarantee their position as a professional if you're
going to try to pay them shit wages, so they don't all go to
industry!

Why would anyone offer a guarantee to employment? That's just a free ticket to be a fuck-up.

Quote:
One need NOT be educated more than once, this is not different.

For you, just once would help.

Quote:
In a Communist society the schools will be egalitarian in their
service to all, and private schooling will not be permitted.

Walz's world is otherwise described as the heat death of the universe.

Quote:
Nonsense, your FEELINGS were just hurt by teachers because you were so
fucking stupid, so now you have a grudge against all teachers.
-Steve

Nutty, if anyone should be pissed off at their teachers, it should be you.

ActualGeek
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



In article <3EF8DD50.4E1C_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

Quote:
ActualGeek wrote:

In article <3EF2C45D.464_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

In article <3EED6296.4D89_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

In article <3EE97288.2962_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

Here's a clue-- how can you steal something that is freely
given in
exchange?
----------------------
It's not.
-Steve

Hmmm... both parties to the exchange think so, but you don't.
-------------------
No they don't, someone always loses.

IF you'd bothered to read my first example, I gave a disproof of that.
-----------------------------
No, you merely SAID you could, then DIDN'T. You didn't because you're
a liar and an incompetent who can't make contenful argument.

On the contrary, I gave a disproof, with an example.

You just refused to read it.
------------------
You gave buttshit nuthin', you just SAID you did! Bullshitter!

You're not fooling anybody. and I mean NOBODY is being fooled by you.



Quote:



There are lots of exchanges where all parties are *measurably* better
off after making the trade.
--------------------------------
The only one that comes to mind is trading labor for labor, equally
by the hour between people each specializing in different skills that
the other needs.


Any time you trade something you don't need for something you do, with
someone who's trading something they don't need for something they do,
both parties are winners.
-------------------------------
Not if they were enslaved thereby by unequal exchange, they were
mugged.


This is basic economics. Hell, its basic LOGIC!
--------------------------------
It's your illogic. You never seem capable of questioning what you
state without demonstration.


Basically, this boils down to the fact that people are doing things
Steve doesn't like, and even though they don't affect you, you want
to
control them and make them do what you want.
---------------------
You obviously think that the lamest most ridiculous possible theory
is
your only hope.

No theory is necessary-- reality has proven every position I've taken
in
this thread.
----------------------------------
Nonsense, you don't even know what a syllogism is, do you?
-Steve


ActualGeek
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



In article <3EF8DDED.7E92_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

Quote:
ActualGeek wrote:

In article <3EF2C7FA.F29_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

In article <3EED64AB.41F3_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

In article <7c584d27.0306130239.67d54492_at_posting.google.com>,
bill.sloman_at_ieee.org (Bill Sloman) wrote:

ActualGeek <ActualGeek_at_no.real.address> wrote in message
news:<ActualGeek-AE2C82.00473711062003_at_corp.supernews.com>...

We've got much better planning tools and much faster, smarter and
more
comprehensive communications these days. A commune-ised system
with
distributed control could well work better than our
modified-free-market economy, in the sense of having a greater
proportion of the populationin productive work. I'd want to see
experimental communities in action for some years before I'd
endorse
any particular implementation of of Democratic Commune-ism, but
in
theory we could do better.

Not even in theory can you do better. This is an information flow
problem. Even with instantaneous communications, a centralized
system
would never have all the information it neede to make all the
decisions,
unless all everyone did was tell it their needs.

With free market, the system works.
----------------------------
Your much vaunted magically communicating "free market" has nearly
destroyed our natural resources, crapped up the countryside, and has
millions of tons of plastic garbage in warehouses with all your rich
losers wondering why it didn't sell, even though they spent the
requisite 50% of their development costs on advertisement and slick
commercials, and most of it is recycled at enormous cost. You think
there is some magical communication exists in the "free market" that
simply doesn't exist, all you're doing is describing a chaotic system
that accidentally hits the mark SOMETIMES, and the rest of the time
enriches a few while torturing and enslaving the rest.

So, was there a downside you were going to tell us about?

By the way, you are free to go live a life of subsistance somewhere,
----------------------
Which is unrelated to anything I recommend, and which you repeatedly
pretend and ignore. You wish to characterize economic equality as
poverty and democratic fairness that precludes wealth as "subsistence".
You're merely disingenuous!

Actually, I'm not ignoring it-- I'm pointing out that by eliminating the
medium of exchange, you elimiante the division of labor, forcing people
to live a life uf subsistance.
--------------------------
Nonsense. Labor is the only medium of exchange, we keep track of our
social contribution of authorized labor hours by publically accessible
computers using simple secure servers software.


And when I refuse to participate, I assume you'll hunt me down and kill
me?

Except that many of the people subject to your system will be gladly
trading their un-AUTHORIZED labor with me for the commodities your
tyranny fails to provide them. And they will defend me and keep me
hidden-- they know a good thing when they see it.

This has been tried, and BETTER! You knwo what they say-- those who are
ignorant of history are doomed to repeate stupid ideas on the internet.

The real question is, why do you want to enslave everyone?






Quote:


Course, its much easier for you to claim that I didn't read what you
wrote (When its obvious that I did) than for you to rectify the internal
conflicts in what you say.
----------------------------
See above, fool.


This is the second time you've blamed me for your own incoherence!
----------------------------
Oh please...
Steve


you advocate for all of us. Why do you need us to come along? You're
free to starve any time you want... we won't stop you.
--------------------------
You can leave OUR planet any time you choose, *I'M* betting that
we'll even HELP you!!


IF you understood information theory, you'd understand why
communism
is doomed to fail.
-------------------------
But, of course, you can't tell us why, because YOU DON'T REALLY
*KNOW*
ANY fucking 'info theory", and that was JUST SOMETHING YOU HEARD AT A
John Birch Society meeting!

John who?

In order for your plan to work, the government would have to be
omniscient... look at every centrally planned economy in history--
-----------------
You mean all NONE of them??


they
have all failed because they could not allocate resources efficiently.
---------------------
Nonsense, the only examples you repeatedly cite despite being
inapplicanble were theft rings that stole from the majority to
enrich an elite, EXACTLY as does THIS Capitalism!! Are you actually
claiming that THIS system delivers very "evenly"? Seen a ghetto
recently?????????? Are you claiming that this chaos of greed actually
delivers ANYTHING where it SHOULD go, other than being stolen by
the elite? Shit, if all you want is that we might as well go back
to feudalism!


And of course, history bears it out...
-----------------------------
And history bears out that Capitalism is the most unfair brutal
form of oppression of people ever invented!

If that's the case, why don't you live in North Korea? Or maybe rural
china is more your style?
------------------------------------
Neither of which represents anything under discussion. Neither is
actually anything even APPROACHING "communist".


Communism is endorsed only by people who want to be fed and not
have to work.
-------------------------
No, you just described the RICH, and they HATE Communism!!

And since contradictions can't exist.... either the rich actually love
communism, or the rich don't want something for nothing.
-------------------------------
Assbackward, bud! The rich want something for nothing, and hate
communism because it would PROHIBIT that!
-Steve


ActualGeek
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



In article <3EF8E0EE.56CA_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

Quote:
ActualGeek wrote:

In article <3EF2CD5A.7822_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

In article <7c584d27.0306160029.31ee3fba_at_posting.google.com>,
bill.sloman_at_ieee.org (Bill Sloman) wrote:

The appropriate insult at this point is "functional illiteracy". The
point I was making was that while Russian centralised command-economy
Communism was a failure, it is at least theoretically possible,
granting modern information gathering tools, that a co-operative
commune-based system might be devised that was more efficient than our
current modified-free-market economy.

If its cooperative, people will leave when they want to eat.
-----------------------------
No, that's a lie, one you got from your brainwashing.

You're right. What was I thinking? If its a cooperative, just like all
the cooperatives, those who try to leave because they are starving will
be shot!
-----------------------
Nope, those who are starving will finally be convinced to accept work
and generate products for the economy so they can eat, or they will
surely die of that starvation. Ever tried to flee when you were
starving? You don't get far.

Yes, you will starve them so its easier for you to shoot them.

You really are a psychopath.




Quote:
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew_at_armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public



But if you're being honest, there's nothing to stop you from forming
such a commune on some land somewhere and having a go at it.
----------------------------------
Irrelevant to what I promote, communes are unrelated to what I say.


The fact that you don't-- that you'd rather FORCE EVERYONE ELSE to live
like you want them to, shows it not to be cooperative at all.
------------------------------------
Nope, we simply demand the world be shared equally, and that isn't
forcing anyone else in any way, other than forcing them not to STEAL!


Its obvious you're advocating totalitarianism, and you shouldn't be so
frustrated that putting the word "cooperative" in there isn't fooling
anybody.
-----------------------------------
Nope, totalitarianism is a buzz-word, there is not even a good
definition of it. You're using it like some people yell "Nazi"
or "Racist", without examination. Is this system "totalitarian"?
If not why not? Does having a system of laws make a society
"totalitarian"?? Some think so!! They are called criminals!!!


You really should read Atlas Shrugged. It would do you a world of good.
------------------------------
No, it's merely over-hyped capitalist trash. We've all read it,
it's garbage. IT doesn't correctly follow a logical development
of an argument either, it just proclaims and pretends it knows
nothing of how to elaborate.


ActualGeek's claim that this could not work, because it couldn't
collect enough information, where the free market does work (which
collects less) is an obvious nonsense,

If that's the cas,e you should be able to show it, rather than just
asserting it as "obvious".

Obviously, you're an idiot.
--------------------
Non-evidenciary, non-responsive.


The free market collects more information than your system ever would--
for a simple reason--
-----------------
Now what *IS* that reason? How DOES it do that? You see, you don't
even KNOW, you merely heard something similar alleged, and you have
ignored COMPLETELY that nothing PREDICTS OR SHOWS that to be true!!!


in a command economy, people will lie, or withold
because they know if they don't they won't survive the next famine!

blinkers on, and your rational brain turned off, so all you can see is

Hey, start being rational! You don't get to run around and make all
these assertions, call people names, and fail to make a logical arugment
and then say other people are being irrational.
--------------------
What I have explained to you is entirely rational, you just don't
LIKE it because it doesn't permit you to retain your pet theories.


I've made a variety of logical, rational arguments, and you guys just
ignore them.
--------------------
No, you repeat pop notions that are destroyed in a couple words.
And you seem unable to defend your own notions except to state
them and pretend you have "proven" them. You don't know what an
Aristotelean syllogism is.


the Russian-style communism that you were trained to hate and fear in
your civics classes in primary school, so we get a primary school
response.

Gee, could it be that you haven't proposed anything different?
-------------------
Since Russia was NOT "Communist", then of course I have, no elite
rich class would be allowed to exist as they did in Russia!
They're who stole most everything from the People!


You wnat logic-- there's nothing to stop you from trying your
cooperative approach now. But that's not good enogh for you-- you want
to force everyone else, thus you aren't really advocating a cooperative.
-------------------
We want to force everyone to share the earth equally, yes.
Anything else is theft.


You're advocating totalitarianism.
-------------------
You're saying that forcing bullies to share the world equally with
all the rest of us is somehow "totalitarian".

Rightist Bullshit. When the rich can live altogether WITHOUT the
poor they then deserve the right to go it alone someplace and see
if the rich alone can remain rich from their own efforts! OBVIOUSLY
they CANNOT!
-Steve


ActualGeek
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



In article <3EF8E1FB.544E_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

Quote:
ActualGeek wrote:

In article <3EF2CE78.53AB_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

In article <3EEFE443.188D_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

They were criminals, they cared as little for their victims as would
any other criminal!!

Just like you.
-----------------
NOW you're just trying to pretend that stealing back what was stolen
from you is criminal. It's NOT!

Actually, I agree. If I steal back what you stole from me, I am not
being a criminal.
---------------------
No, you ARE, because you stole it first, you stupid buttwipe!

And we come full circle: Who did I steal it from?

The question you fresue to answer!

Who did I steal my computer from? Now, remember, in order for something
to be stolen, it can't have been freely traded.

Quote:
However, your assertion that I stole my computer (you have yet to back
that up, by the way) is unfounded, and you refuse to defend it....
-----------------------
I'm not concerned with your computer, but if you gained anything through
unfair pay, then you enslaved someone else and stole their labor.


Which means that you're full of hot air, since there is no unfair pay--
they were happy to get paid, they agreed to it, therefore its fair.





Quote:


So you cannot continue to assert that it is stolen without providing
even reason, let alone proof, without everyone seeing you for an > idiot.
------------------------
If the person who does the original labor which produces something,
doesn't wind up labor credit for all of that something, then he is
obviously the first and ONLY victim of theft.

You're really a tin pot dictator, aren't you?



Quote:
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew_at_armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public


If you haven't noticed, everyone pretty much does.
-------------------------
Appeal for crowd support is a logical fallacy.
Anyway, you don't KNOW who's reading this, or what they think,
you just know a few players here who are antagonists.


The only reason your into this idea is you tink you're going to be the
criminal on top.
----------------
I know that you think such things because you're desperately greedy
and so you're unable to see people as being anything but other
versions of yourself. But if you could read my mind you'd not only know
BETTER, but be SHOCKED at HOW REVOLTED I was toward any such thing.


You know you won't be, but you fantasize, and so you
can't handle it when we piss on your fantasy by educating you on
history.
------------------------------
You apparently know NO history, merely myth.


Pretense that what they had was something that was intended to "WORK"
AT ALL, except to funnel money to their offshore accounts, is
hilarious,
if it wasn't so lame!

Which is exactly why you're hilarious and so lame!
------------------------------
You make no sense here.
-Steve


ActualGeek
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



In article <3EF8E351.1857_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

Quote:
ActualGeek wrote:

In article <7c584d27.0306200241.1683cc63_at_posting.google.com>,
bill.sloman_at_ieee.org (Bill Sloman) wrote:

ActualGeek <ActualGeek_at_no.real.address> wrote in message
news:<ActualGeek-852430.21475019062003_at_corp.supernews.com>...
In article <7c584d27.0306181320.101511a5_at_posting.google.com>,
bill.sloman_at_ieee.org (Bill Sloman) wrote:

Precious Pup <barking_at_wrongtree.org> wrote in message
news:<3EEDF997.CB07529F_at_wrongtree.org>...
Bill Sloman wrote:

ActualGeek <ActualGeek_at_no.real.address> wrote in message
news:<ActualGeek-AE2C82.00473711062003_at_corp.supernews.com>...

Jesus, but read a book sometime.

Name one. If it is Samuelson's text oneconomics, don't forget to
specify the edition.

Jesus H. Christ. We'd be happy if you read _any_ academic econ
textbook.

So I can share your ideas about the perfection of the free market -
which by only collecting data about aggregate cash flows

You have to really try to avoid knowing anything about companies in this
country to maintain such an illusion.

Plus, you can't have worked at one either.

IF you think Coca-Cola doesn't know how many cans of soda they sell in
every zip code in the country, every week of the year, going back
decades-- so that they can predict exactly how many will sell next week
using that data-- you're not thinking very well.

European companies document their sales with equal precision - the
data already exists, as I was well aware in making my original
arguement.

It is not available outside the companies, and doesn't have any direct
effect on the "free market" interactions which regulate the economy.

My argument was that a (distributed) system of economic regulation
that had access to this more comprehensive information could - at
least in theory - run the economy more efficiently.

Unfortunately, you have not made an argument. you have made assertions.
-------------------
No, you just CALL them that for your convenience in not having to
deal with them.


But this is typical for americas education system-- they don't teach the
difference... in fact, I think not knowing the difference is their
educational goal.
------------------
You're a shit and a liar.
-Steve

You and I both know that I am the one who has been honest here... which
is why I'm calm, while you are tearing your hair out.

It doesn't have to be this way.

Bill Sloman
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



ActualGeek <ActualGeek_at_no.real.address> wrote in message news:<ActualGeek-D67C63.23481325062003_at_corp.supernews.com>...
Quote:
In article <3EF8E351.1857_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

<snip>

Quote:
But this is typical for americas education system-- they don't teach the
difference... in fact, I think not knowing the difference is their
educational goal.
------------------
You're a shit and a liar.
-Steve

You and I both know that I am the one who has been honest here

Your claim to "honesty" just means that you have either a poor, or a
very selective memory.

Quote:
... which
is why I'm calm, while you are tearing your hair out.

Got any evidence for this claim? It is a lot to read into a seven word
declarative sentence.

Quote:
It doesn't have to be this way.

You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting. Go away and
try to learn what honest arguement involves.

-------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

R. Steve Walz
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



ActualGeek wrote:
Quote:

In article <3EF8DDED.7E92_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

Actually, I'm not ignoring it-- I'm pointing out that by eliminating the
medium of exchange, you elimiante the division of labor, forcing people
to live a life uf subsistance.
--------------------------
Nonsense. Labor is the only medium of exchange, we keep track of our
social contribution of authorized labor hours by publically accessible
computers using simple secure servers software.

And when I refuse to participate, I assume you'll hunt me down and kill
me?
-------------------

We won't have to, you'll starve because you can't buy food without doing
your job.


Quote:
Except that many of the people subject to your system will be gladly
trading their un-AUTHORIZED labor with me for the commodities your
tyranny fails to provide them.
----------------------

Nope, they will be killed immediately by public torture and their
relatives forbidden to ever mention their name.


Quote:
And they will defend me and keep me
hidden-- they know a good thing when they see it.
-----------------------

We don't need a warrant to will do spot checks of absolutely everywhere.
You can live in a hole and eat bugs.


Quote:
This has been tried, and BETTER! You knwo what they say-- those who are
ignorant of history are doomed to repeate stupid ideas on the internet.
--------------------------

Nope, hasn't. The methods are universal, that's what confuses you.
This will be a system nobody even WANTS to frustrate, you'll have
far too much to lose and so much to gain by cooperating. No rent,
no eviction, universal health, power, education, DSL and cable,
educational TV that isn't crap, no worries, simply work a part time
job in a pleasant surrounding and sign up for more work if you want
to buy a consumer item. You own your home property and can modify it
the way you want without ANY restrictions except public health danger.
No landlords, no debt, no opression.


Quote:
The real question is, why do you want to enslave everyone?
---------------------------

Only the rich would see it as "enslavement", and only because THEY
would be forbidden to enslave others!! The rich see enslaving others
as some kind of a weird "freedom". That's a LIE!
Steve


Quote:
Communism is endorsed only by people who want to be fed and not
have to work.
-------------------------
No, you just described the RICH, and they HATE Communism!!

And since contradictions can't exist.... either the rich actually love
communism, or the rich don't want something for nothing.
-------------------------------
Assbackward, bud! The rich want something for nothing, and hate
communism because it would PROHIBIT that!
-Steve
---------------


-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew_at_armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

R. Steve Walz
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



ActualGeek wrote:
Quote:

In article <3EF8DE94.5BAF_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

Only to someone who's never studied the great depression.

Ever heard of the Broken Window fallacy?
----------------------------------
Nobody broke any windows.

You mean this is ALL you're going to say?
Jesus shit on a stick, you're stupid!

High school freshmen (in decent schools anyway) learn about the Broken
Window fallacy,
--------------

Obviously not very well. Nobody broke any windows.


Quote:
But its not too late, you can still learn-- go read "Economics in one
lesson" by Henry Hazlit.
---------------

He's a hack with a brainwashed high-school-level education.
Steve


Quote:
You've offered nothing different form what was proposed and done, in
Russia.
---------------
No, that is what Capitalism has offered.
-Steve

--
-Steve Walz rstevew_at_armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

R. Steve Walz
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



ActualGeek wrote:
Quote:

In article <3EF8E0EE.56CA_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

Nope, those who are starving will finally be convinced to accept work
and generate products for the economy so they can eat, or they will
surely die of that starvation. Ever tried to flee when you were
starving? You don't get far.

Yes, you will starve them so its easier for you to shoot them.
----------------------

Criminals, sure.

But for anyone harmless who simply works their simple part time
job will have a home of their own and the chance to buy whatever they
wish if they sign up for the additional work, and they can go back to
minimum when they wish.


Quote:
You really are a psychopath.
------------------------

No, you're just a liar, you have to LIE in service to your pet theory
because you can't actually THINK!
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew_at_armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public


Quote:
But if you're being honest, there's nothing to stop you from forming
such a commune on some land somewhere and having a go at it.
----------------------------------
Irrelevant to what I promote, communes are unrelated to what I say.


The fact that you don't-- that you'd rather FORCE EVERYONE ELSE to live
like you want them to, shows it not to be cooperative at all.
------------------------------------
Nope, we simply demand the world be shared equally, and that isn't
forcing anyone else in any way, other than forcing them not to STEAL!


Its obvious you're advocating totalitarianism, and you shouldn't be so
frustrated that putting the word "cooperative" in there isn't fooling
anybody.
-----------------------------------
Nope, totalitarianism is a buzz-word, there is not even a good
definition of it. You're using it like some people yell "Nazi"
or "Racist", without examination. Is this system "totalitarian"?
If not why not? Does having a system of laws make a society
"totalitarian"?? Some think so!! They are called criminals!!!


You really should read Atlas Shrugged. It would do you a world of good.
------------------------------
No, it's merely over-hyped capitalist trash. We've all read it,
it's garbage. IT doesn't correctly follow a logical development
of an argument either, it just proclaims and pretends it knows
nothing of how to elaborate.


ActualGeek's claim that this could not work, because it couldn't
collect enough information, where the free market does work (which
collects less) is an obvious nonsense,

If that's the cas,e you should be able to show it, rather than just
asserting it as "obvious".

Obviously, you're an idiot.
--------------------
Non-evidenciary, non-responsive.


The free market collects more information than your system ever would--
for a simple reason--
-----------------
Now what *IS* that reason? How DOES it do that? You see, you don't
even KNOW, you merely heard something similar alleged, and you have
ignored COMPLETELY that nothing PREDICTS OR SHOWS that to be true!!!


in a command economy, people will lie, or withold
because they know if they don't they won't survive the next famine!

blinkers on, and your rational brain turned off, so all you can see is

Hey, start being rational! You don't get to run around and make all
these assertions, call people names, and fail to make a logical arugment
and then say other people are being irrational.
--------------------
What I have explained to you is entirely rational, you just don't
LIKE it because it doesn't permit you to retain your pet theories.


I've made a variety of logical, rational arguments, and you guys just
ignore them.
--------------------
No, you repeat pop notions that are destroyed in a couple words.
And you seem unable to defend your own notions except to state
them and pretend you have "proven" them. You don't know what an
Aristotelean syllogism is.


the Russian-style communism that you were trained to hate and fear in
your civics classes in primary school, so we get a primary school
response.

Gee, could it be that you haven't proposed anything different?
-------------------
Since Russia was NOT "Communist", then of course I have, no elite
rich class would be allowed to exist as they did in Russia!
They're who stole most everything from the People!


You wnat logic-- there's nothing to stop you from trying your
cooperative approach now. But that's not good enogh for you-- you want
to force everyone else, thus you aren't really advocating a cooperative.
-------------------
We want to force everyone to share the earth equally, yes.
Anything else is theft.


You're advocating totalitarianism.
-------------------
You're saying that forcing bullies to share the world equally with
all the rest of us is somehow "totalitarian".

Rightist Bullshit. When the rich can live altogether WITHOUT the
poor they then deserve the right to go it alone someplace and see
if the rich alone can remain rich from their own efforts! OBVIOUSLY
they CANNOT!
-Steve


R. Steve Walz
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



ActualGeek wrote:
Quote:

In article <3EF8E1FB.544E_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

NOW you're just trying to pretend that stealing back what was stolen
from you is criminal. It's NOT!

Actually, I agree. If I steal back what you stole from me, I am not
being a criminal.
---------------------
No, you ARE, because you stole it first, you stupid buttwipe!

And we come full circle: Who did I steal it from?
------------------------

Stealing begins and ends WHENEVER YOU cause a man to work more hours
for YOU than YOU do for HIM and try to call that a fair bargain!!!


Quote:
The question you fresue to answer!
-------------------------------------

No, that's just your lie, but it's a novel spelling.


Quote:
Who did I steal my computer from? Now, remember, in order for something
to be stolen, it can't have been freely traded.
-----------------------------------

Nope, that's a thieve's criteria.

A starving man is an illegal target of your trade because he has
had all REAL choice removed by circumstances.

A man facing eviction for example has no ability to bargain for living
quarters. These all become situations in which YOU drive the inequity
intentionally, or else you merely opportune upon it, and both are
criminal and must be banned and punished.


Quote:
However, your assertion that I stole my computer (you have yet to back
that up, by the way) is unfounded, and you refuse to defend it....
-----------------------
I'm not concerned with your computer, but if you gained anything through
unfair pay, then you enslaved someone else and stole their labor.

Which means that you're full of hot air, since there is no unfair pay--
they were happy to get paid, they agreed to it, therefore its fair.
----------------------------

That's like pretending that it's all on the up-and-up when you stop
hitting someone and they like it!! They are happy if they are starving
to get back only a little of what you stole, but that doesn't mean
that you were right to steal the REST of it!!


Quote:
So you cannot continue to assert that it is stolen without providing
even reason, let alone proof, without everyone seeing you for an > idiot.
------------------------
If the person who does the original labor which produces something,
doesn't wind up labor credit for all of that something, then he is
obviously the first and ONLY victim of theft.

You're really a tin pot dictator, aren't you?
------------------------------

Irrelevant, lying, and disingenuous. You want to steal and not be
punished, you're merely a criminal!

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew_at_armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

R. Steve Walz
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



ActualGeek wrote:
Quote:

In article <3EF8E31B.5CB6_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

In article <3EF2CEFD.10EB_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

IF you think Coca-Cola doesn't know how many cans of soda they sell in
every zip code in the country, every week of the year, going back
decades-- so that they can predict exactly how many will sell next week
using that data-- you're not thinking very well.
-----------------
That's NOT some Capitalist "magic", you know, all it takes is delivery
records, those are independent of the economic system.
-Steve

Gee, yet you think even delivery records don't exist in capitalism!

How sad!
---------------------
No, moron, I said that capitalism has no claim of magical "unseen hand"
free-market joo-joo based on purchase and delivery records,
since EVERY system has that, even Communism!

-Steve

You can't even be honest about what you said, let along about what
others have said.
--------------------

You fucking liar, you try to twist out of every decent point of
discussion, you're no more than disingenuous dishonest scum.
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew_at_armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

R. Steve Walz
Guest

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:44 am   



ActualGeek wrote:
Quote:

In article <3EF8E351.1857_at_armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew_at_armory.com> wrote:

ActualGeek wrote:

In article <7c584d27.0306200241.1683cc63_at_posting.google.com>,
bill.sloman_at_ieee.org (Bill Sloman) wrote:

ActualGeek <ActualGeek_at_no.real.address> wrote in message
news:<ActualGeek-852430.21475019062003_at_corp.supernews.com>...
In article <7c584d27.0306181320.101511a5_at_posting.google.com>,
bill.sloman_at_ieee.org (Bill Sloman) wrote:

Precious Pup <barking_at_wrongtree.org> wrote in message
news:<3EEDF997.CB07529F_at_wrongtree.org>...
Bill Sloman wrote:

ActualGeek <ActualGeek_at_no.real.address> wrote in message
news:<ActualGeek-AE2C82.00473711062003_at_corp.supernews.com>...

Jesus, but read a book sometime.

Name one. If it is Samuelson's text oneconomics, don't forget to
specify the edition.

Jesus H. Christ. We'd be happy if you read _any_ academic econ
textbook.

So I can share your ideas about the perfection of the free market -
which by only collecting data about aggregate cash flows

You have to really try to avoid knowing anything about companies in this
country to maintain such an illusion.

Plus, you can't have worked at one either.

IF you think Coca-Cola doesn't know how many cans of soda they sell in
every zip code in the country, every week of the year, going back
decades-- so that they can predict exactly how many will sell next week
using that data-- you're not thinking very well.

European companies document their sales with equal precision - the
data already exists, as I was well aware in making my original
arguement.

It is not available outside the companies, and doesn't have any direct
effect on the "free market" interactions which regulate the economy.

My argument was that a (distributed) system of economic regulation
that had access to this more comprehensive information could - at
least in theory - run the economy more efficiently.

Unfortunately, you have not made an argument. you have made assertions.
-------------------
No, you just CALL them that for your convenience in not having to
deal with them.


But this is typical for americas education system-- they don't teach the
difference... in fact, I think not knowing the difference is their
educational goal.
------------------
You're a shit and a liar.
-Steve

You and I both know that I am the one who has been honest here...
--------------

You're a shit-fucking liar.


Quote:
which
is why I'm calm, while you are tearing your hair out.
-------------------

You're REALLY a liar now.


Quote:
It doesn't have to be this way.
------------------------

You clearly do, you're a shit and a liar.
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew_at_armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

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