low-end scope

On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:19:00 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid
wrote:

miso_at_sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:19 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

This goes back to the use of cheap ass inverters versus sine wave
output inverters. Those $100 inverters are OK for a soldering iron,
but I don't think I'd power any instruments with one. My hundred
dollar inverter ruined a hundred dollar notebook power supply.


That is highly unsual. Laptop supplies are switchers, they rectify the
mains and should be perfectly happy with modified sine. Or was that a
cheapo laptop supply despite the high price tag ...?

What doesn't run well on a modified sine is motors. When the power goes
I have to turn the potmeter for the wood stove stove fans way up so they
reach the same throughput as with pure sine. Plus they are noisier
because you hear the harmonics.


Regarding the wall wart, my point was they could have gone this route.
But perhaps these Chinese scope vendors started out doing OEMing, and
the US companies wouldn't stand for a wall wart, or more likely soap
on a rope.

CE stickers are cheaper by the reel.


I don't think anyoe would accept a scope with a wall wart, unless it was
super cheap.

Our 4-channel isolated-channel TPS2024 uses a wart supply, and it
wasn't cheap.

We use warts for all our products except where the power requirement
is too high. One recent gadget is a 3U rackmount spectroscopy
controller with an embedded Linux PC, hard drives, digitizers, arbs,
all sorts of stuff. It runs off a wart.

John

On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:24:19 -0800, John Larkin <jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:19:00 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid
wrote:

miso_at_sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:19 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

snip

This goes back to the use of cheap ass inverters versus sine wave
output inverters. Those $100 inverters are OK for a soldering iron,
but I don't think I'd power any instruments with one. My hundred
dollar inverter ruined a hundred dollar notebook power supply.


That is highly unsual. Laptop supplies are switchers, they rectify the
mains and should be perfectly happy with modified sine. Or was that a
cheapo laptop supply despite the high price tag ...?

What doesn't run well on a modified sine is motors. When the power goes
I have to turn the potmeter for the wood stove stove fans way up so they
reach the same throughput as with pure sine. Plus they are noisier
because you hear the harmonics.


Regarding the wall wart, my point was they could have gone this route.
But perhaps these Chinese scope vendors started out doing OEMing, and
the US companies wouldn't stand for a wall wart, or more likely soap
on a rope.

CE stickers are cheaper by the reel.


I don't think anyoe would accept a scope with a wall wart, unless it was
super cheap.

Our 4-channel isolated-channel TPS2024 uses a wart supply, and it
wasn't cheap.

We use warts for all our products except where the power requirement
is too high. One recent gadget is a 3U rackmount spectroscopy
controller with an embedded Linux PC, hard drives, digitizers, arbs,
all sorts of stuff. It runs off a wart.

John

Crikey, how big is that wall wart?

Crikey, how big is that wall wart?

On Sat, 06 Mar 2010 17:31:49 -0800,
"JosephKK"<quiettechblue_at_yahoo.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:24:19 -0800, John Larkin <jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:19:00 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid
wrote:

miso_at_sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:19 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

snip

This goes back to the use of cheap ass inverters versus sine wave
output inverters. Those $100 inverters are OK for a soldering iron,
but I don't think I'd power any instruments with one. My hundred
dollar inverter ruined a hundred dollar notebook power supply.


That is highly unsual. Laptop supplies are switchers, they rectify the
mains and should be perfectly happy with modified sine. Or was that a
cheapo laptop supply despite the high price tag ...?

What doesn't run well on a modified sine is motors. When the power goes
I have to turn the potmeter for the wood stove stove fans way up so they
reach the same throughput as with pure sine. Plus they are noisier
because you hear the harmonics.


Regarding the wall wart, my point was they could have gone this route.
But perhaps these Chinese scope vendors started out doing OEMing, and
the US companies wouldn't stand for a wall wart, or more likely soap
on a rope.

CE stickers are cheaper by the reel.


I don't think anyoe would accept a scope with a wall wart, unless it was
super cheap.

Our 4-channel isolated-channel TPS2024 uses a wart supply, and it
wasn't cheap.

We use warts for all our products except where the power requirement
is too high. One recent gadget is a 3U rackmount spectroscopy
controller with an embedded Linux PC, hard drives, digitizers, arbs,
all sorts of stuff. It runs off a wart.

John

Crikey, how big is that wall wart?

It's the size of a healthy laptop PC supply. Actually, I think it is
one.

We're using this little yellow thing, plugged into the power connector
on an mini-itx motherboard.

http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/sc.8/category.13/.f

John

On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:19:00 -0800, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:



m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:19 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 3, 1:04 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 2, 5:22 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Paul Keinanen wrote:
On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 12:32:34 -0800, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
[...]
I'd rather not have a scope that runs Windows and that needs two
boxes, drivers, a USB cable, and a mouse to do anything. A real scope
will most likely still be working 20 years from now. I like real
scopes with lots of real knobs.
Me, too
A USB scope would make sense in some data-centric application where
the waveform needs to be shipped into Matlab or some such in real
time.
John
For me, built in battery power would be a critical requirement so that
you could use it as easily as a multimeter.  
Most DSOs such as mine come with a battery option. I didn't order that
but AFAIK it runs several hours on a charge.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
That's one mighty expensive battery option:
http://www.tesales.com/commerce/ccpc1009-2859-instek-gds-2000-battery-
option-for-gds--2000-seri-gds-2000-battery-gds-2000-battery.htm
Yeah, but you wouldn't want to know what mainstream manufacturers charge
for this stuff. It's a boutique accessory, very few people need it,
meaning low sales volume and somehow the NRE has to be amortized. Part
of life
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
In the day, the Asian manufacturers would use wall warts since that
was the item that got the UL and other approvals. Also the
manufacturer of the wall wart was on the hook. I don't have any Taiwan
test gear, but I'm surprised they take the AC into the box. If they
designed with a DC input, making the box run off of batteries would be
a snap.
But not scopes. I have never seen any serious scopes with wall warts.

Regarding market, there are field service situations where you can't
get line power. It does sound funny since you are testing electronics,
and that has to be powered. But there are solar based installations.
There is a break even point between the cost of getting power to a
site versus solar. The advantage to solar is the environmental studies
are only at the site. If you run power lines, there is always the
chance a study will be required to see if any critters will be
disturbed by your power pole installation.
Yes, or some weird group claims the lines are creating "electrical smog" :-)

However, for under $100 you can get a little inverter suitcase that
provides over 100Wh worth of mains power, or more if you drag in a deep
cycle battery.

I haven't seen any solar cell sites yet, but solar repeater sites are
common enough. Also solar powered remote sensing facilities are
common. They use COTS satellite internet like Wild Blue.
Still, the only situation I can see where you truly need batteries in a
scope is when climbing a pole. And that's rather rare with a scope,
although one Rhode&Schwarz spectrum analyzer came with a serious backpack.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

This goes back to the use of cheap ass inverters versus sine wave
output inverters. Those $100 inverters are OK for a soldering iron,
but I don't think I'd power any instruments with one. My hundred
dollar inverter ruined a hundred dollar notebook power supply.

That is highly unsual. Laptop supplies are switchers, they rectify the
mains and should be perfectly happy with modified sine. Or was that a
cheapo laptop supply despite the high price tag ...?

What doesn't run well on a modified sine is motors. When the power goes
I have to turn the potmeter for the wood stove stove fans way up so they
reach the same throughput as with pure sine. Plus they are noisier
because you hear the harmonics.

Regarding the wall wart, my point was they could have gone this route.
But perhaps these Chinese scope vendors started out doing OEMing, and
the US companies wouldn't stand for a wall wart, or more likely soap
on a rope.

CE stickers are cheaper by the reel.



I don't think anyoe would accept a scope with a wall wart, unless it was
super cheap.

Our 4-channel isolated-channel TPS2024 uses a wart supply, and it
wasn't cheap.

We use warts for all our products except where the power requirement
is too high. One recent gadget is a 3U rackmount spectroscopy
controller with an embedded Linux PC, hard drives, digitizers, arbs,
all sorts of stuff. It runs off a wart.

John

On Sat, 06 Mar 2010 17:31:49 -0800,



"JosephKK"<quiettechb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:24:19 -0800, John Larkin <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:19:00 -0800, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:

m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:19 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

snip

This goes back to the use of cheap ass inverters versus sine wave
output inverters. Those $100 inverters are OK for a soldering iron,
but I don't think I'd power any instruments with one. My hundred
dollar inverter ruined a hundred dollar notebook power supply.

That is highly unsual. Laptop supplies are switchers, they rectify the
mains and should be perfectly happy with modified sine. Or was that a
cheapo laptop supply despite the high price tag ...?

What doesn't run well on a modified sine is motors. When the power goes
I have to turn the potmeter for the wood stove stove fans way up so they
reach the same throughput as with pure sine. Plus they are noisier
because you hear the harmonics.

Regarding the wall wart, my point was they could have gone this route.
But perhaps these Chinese scope vendors started out doing OEMing, and
the US companies wouldn't stand for a wall wart, or more likely soap
on a rope.

CE stickers are cheaper by the reel.

I don't think anyoe would accept a scope with a wall wart, unless it was
super cheap.

Our 4-channel isolated-channel TPS2024 uses a wart supply, and it
wasn't cheap.

We use warts for all our products except where the power requirement
is too high. One recent gadget is a 3U rackmount spectroscopy
controller with an embedded Linux PC, hard drives, digitizers, arbs,
all sorts of stuff. It runs off a wart.

John

Crikey, how big is that wall wart?

It's the size of a healthy laptop PC supply. Actually, I think it is
one.

We're using this little yellow thing, plugged into the power connector
on an mini-itx motherboard.

http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/sc.8/category.13/.f

John

On Mar 6, 7:16 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Mar 2010 17:31:49 -0800,



"JosephKK"<quiettechb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:24:19 -0800, John Larkin <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:19:00 -0800, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:

m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:19 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

snip

This goes back to the use of cheap ass inverters versus sine wave
output inverters. Those $100 inverters are OK for a soldering iron,
but I don't think I'd power any instruments with one. My hundred
dollar inverter ruined a hundred dollar notebook power supply.

That is highly unsual. Laptop supplies are switchers, they rectify the
mains and should be perfectly happy with modified sine. Or was that a
cheapo laptop supply despite the high price tag ...?

What doesn't run well on a modified sine is motors. When the power goes
I have to turn the potmeter for the wood stove stove fans way up so they
reach the same throughput as with pure sine. Plus they are noisier
because you hear the harmonics.

Regarding the wall wart, my point was they could have gone this route.
But perhaps these Chinese scope vendors started out doing OEMing, and
the US companies wouldn't stand for a wall wart, or more likely soap
on a rope.

CE stickers are cheaper by the reel.

I don't think anyoe would accept a scope with a wall wart, unless it was
super cheap.

Our 4-channel isolated-channel TPS2024 uses a wart supply, and it
wasn't cheap.

We use warts for all our products except where the power requirement
is too high. One recent gadget is a 3U rackmount spectroscopy
controller with an embedded Linux PC, hard drives, digitizers, arbs,
all sorts of stuff. It runs off a wart.

John

Crikey, how big is that wall wart?

It's the size of a healthy laptop PC supply. Actually, I think it is
one.

We're using this little yellow thing, plugged into the power connector
on an mini-itx motherboard.

http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/sc.8/category.13/.f

John

I was looking at that company for their mobile supply. Any problems
with the supply you bought?

On Mar 5, 12:24 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:19:00 -0800, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:



m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:19 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 3, 1:04 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 2, 5:22 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Paul Keinanen wrote:
On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 12:32:34 -0800, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
[...]
I'd rather not have a scope that runs Windows and that needs two
boxes, drivers, a USB cable, and a mouse to do anything. A real scope
will most likely still be working 20 years from now. I like real
scopes with lots of real knobs.
Me, too
A USB scope would make sense in some data-centric application where
the waveform needs to be shipped into Matlab or some such in real
time.
John
For me, built in battery power would be a critical requirement so that
you could use it as easily as a multimeter.  
Most DSOs such as mine come with a battery option. I didn't order that
but AFAIK it runs several hours on a charge.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
That's one mighty expensive battery option:
http://www.tesales.com/commerce/ccpc1009-2859-instek-gds-2000-battery-
option-for-gds--2000-seri-gds-2000-battery-gds-2000-battery.htm
Yeah, but you wouldn't want to know what mainstream manufacturers charge
for this stuff. It's a boutique accessory, very few people need it,
meaning low sales volume and somehow the NRE has to be amortized. Part
of life
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
In the day, the Asian manufacturers would use wall warts since that
was the item that got the UL and other approvals. Also the
manufacturer of the wall wart was on the hook. I don't have any Taiwan
test gear, but I'm surprised they take the AC into the box. If they
designed with a DC input, making the box run off of batteries would be
a snap.
But not scopes. I have never seen any serious scopes with wall warts.

Regarding market, there are field service situations where you can't
get line power. It does sound funny since you are testing electronics,
and that has to be powered. But there are solar based installations.
There is a break even point between the cost of getting power to a
site versus solar. The advantage to solar is the environmental studies
are only at the site. If you run power lines, there is always the
chance a study will be required to see if any critters will be
disturbed by your power pole installation.
Yes, or some weird group claims the lines are creating "electrical smog" :-)

However, for under $100 you can get a little inverter suitcase that
provides over 100Wh worth of mains power, or more if you drag in a deep
cycle battery.

I haven't seen any solar cell sites yet, but solar repeater sites are
common enough. Also solar powered remote sensing facilities are
common. They use COTS satellite internet like Wild Blue.
Still, the only situation I can see where you truly need batteries in a
scope is when climbing a pole. And that's rather rare with a scope,
although one Rhode&Schwarz spectrum analyzer came with a serious backpack.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

This goes back to the use of cheap ass inverters versus sine wave
output inverters. Those $100 inverters are OK for a soldering iron,
but I don't think I'd power any instruments with one. My hundred
dollar inverter ruined a hundred dollar notebook power supply.

That is highly unsual. Laptop supplies are switchers, they rectify the
mains and should be perfectly happy with modified sine. Or was that a
cheapo laptop supply despite the high price tag ...?

What doesn't run well on a modified sine is motors. When the power goes
I have to turn the potmeter for the wood stove stove fans way up so they
reach the same throughput as with pure sine. Plus they are noisier
because you hear the harmonics.

Regarding the wall wart, my point was they could have gone this route.
But perhaps these Chinese scope vendors started out doing OEMing, and
the US companies wouldn't stand for a wall wart, or more likely soap
on a rope.

CE stickers are cheaper by the reel.



I don't think anyoe would accept a scope with a wall wart, unless it was
super cheap.

Our 4-channel isolated-channel TPS2024 uses a wart supply, and it
wasn't cheap.

We use warts for all our products except where the power requirement
is too high. One recent gadget is a 3U rackmount spectroscopy
controller with an embedded Linux PC, hard drives, digitizers, arbs,
all sorts of stuff. It runs off a wart.

John

Hot swap batteries in that scope. Kewl!

There is a lot to be said for soap on a rope or wall warts. You keep
the heat outside the box. If you are familiar with radios, Icom made
the R-7100 with internal supply. For stability, people quickly
realized that an outside power supply help. When the R-8500 came out,
they built it to use an external power supply and skip the internal
supply.

The external supply keeps high voltage out of the box. It's really not
a bad idea.

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 23:23:17 -0800 (PST), "m...@sushi.com"



m...@sushi.com> wrote:
On Mar 5, 12:24 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:19:00 -0800, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:

m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:19 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 3, 1:04 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
m...@sushi.com wrote:
On Mar 2, 5:22 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Paul Keinanen wrote:
On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 12:32:34 -0800, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
[...]
I'd rather not have a scope that runs Windows and that needs two
boxes, drivers, a USB cable, and a mouse to do anything. A real scope
will most likely still be working 20 years from now. I like real
scopes with lots of real knobs.
Me, too
A USB scope would make sense in some data-centric application where
the waveform needs to be shipped into Matlab or some such in real
time.
John
For me, built in battery power would be a critical requirement so that
you could use it as easily as a multimeter.  
Most DSOs such as mine come with a battery option. I didn't order that
but AFAIK it runs several hours on a charge.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
That's one mighty expensive battery option:
http://www.tesales.com/commerce/ccpc1009-2859-instek-gds-2000-battery-
option-for-gds--2000-seri-gds-2000-battery-gds-2000-battery.htm
Yeah, but you wouldn't want to know what mainstream manufacturers charge
for this stuff. It's a boutique accessory, very few people need it,
meaning low sales volume and somehow the NRE has to be amortized.. Part
of life
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
In the day, the Asian manufacturers would use wall warts since that
was the item that got the UL and other approvals. Also the
manufacturer of the wall wart was on the hook. I don't have any Taiwan
test gear, but I'm surprised they take the AC into the box. If they
designed with a DC input, making the box run off of batteries would be
a snap.
But not scopes. I have never seen any serious scopes with wall warts.

Regarding market, there are field service situations where you can't
get line power. It does sound funny since you are testing electronics,
and that has to be powered. But there are solar based installations.
There is a break even point between the cost of getting power to a
site versus solar. The advantage to solar is the environmental studies
are only at the site. If you run power lines, there is always the
chance a study will be required to see if any critters will be
disturbed by your power pole installation.
Yes, or some weird group claims the lines are creating "electrical smog" :-)

However, for under $100 you can get a little inverter suitcase that
provides over 100Wh worth of mains power, or more if you drag in a deep
cycle battery.

I haven't seen any solar cell sites yet, but solar repeater sites are
common enough. Also solar powered remote sensing facilities are
common. They use COTS satellite internet like Wild Blue.
Still, the only situation I can see where you truly need batteries in a
scope is when climbing a pole. And that's rather rare with a scope,
although one Rhode&Schwarz spectrum analyzer came with a serious backpack.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

This goes back to the use of cheap ass inverters versus sine wave
output inverters. Those $100 inverters are OK for a soldering iron,
but I don't think I'd power any instruments with one. My hundred
dollar inverter ruined a hundred dollar notebook power supply.

That is highly unsual. Laptop supplies are switchers, they rectify the
mains and should be perfectly happy with modified sine. Or was that a
cheapo laptop supply despite the high price tag ...?

What doesn't run well on a modified sine is motors. When the power goes
I have to turn the potmeter for the wood stove stove fans way up so they
reach the same throughput as with pure sine. Plus they are noisier
because you hear the harmonics.

Regarding the wall wart, my point was they could have gone this route.
But perhaps these Chinese scope vendors started out doing OEMing, and
the US companies wouldn't stand for a wall wart, or more likely soap
on a rope.

CE stickers are cheaper by the reel.

I don't think anyoe would accept a scope with a wall wart, unless it was
super cheap.

Our 4-channel isolated-channel TPS2024 uses a wart supply, and it
wasn't cheap.

We use warts for all our products except where the power requirement
is too high. One recent gadget is a 3U rackmount spectroscopy
controller with an embedded Linux PC, hard drives, digitizers, arbs,
all sorts of stuff. It runs off a wart.

John

Hot swap batteries in that scope. Kewl!

There is a lot to be said for soap on a rope or wall warts. You keep
the heat outside the box. If you are familiar with radios, Icom made
the R-7100 with internal supply. For stability, people quickly
realized that an outside power supply help. When the R-8500 came out,
they built it to use an external power supply and skip the internal
supply.

The external supply keeps high voltage out of the box. It's really not
a bad idea.

It makes getting UL/CE certs a lot easier.

John