Let's design a fake Perpetual Motion machine

Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:09 pm   

I was thinking about all the fringe-science "Magnet Motors" and found
myself reasoning thus: suppose there's a way to power a flywheel by
slowly demagnetizing some permanent magnets. Wipe out the magnets'
stored energy, and inject it as KE into the flywheel. If possible,
this would explain a large number of bizarre PM claims, since every so
often a basement inventor would stumble across the phenomenon. But
as far as I know, nobody has tried to do this intentionally.

OK, what if?

First of all, a pair of repelling magnets placed upon a rotor/stator,
if gradually increasing in magnetization, will experience net
acceleration, and will only stop when the magnets get fully
saturated. During each approach, they decelerate a bit less than they
accelerate during retreat, so the flywheel receives a small kick. But
obviously the magnetization requires an external power supply.

But the other way is interesting: *attracting* magnet-pairs, if slowly
DE-magnetized, will be similarly accelerated. They accelerate while
approaching each other, then decelerate less when retreating, for a
net kick of KE. The net mechanical gain could possibly compensate the
thermal losses of a simple demagnetizer section. I'll assume there's
a few microwatts left over to keep a flywheel slowly turning against
air friction. Very cool if true!!!

It's not hard to demagnetize a small patch on the surface of ceramic
magnet by using a tiny supermagnet. Or, slightly demagnetize an
entire magnet by using a coil to apply a brief pulse. Two
supermagnets, if forced together with alike-poles repelling, will
demagnetize each other. A simple flywheel couldn't do this, since
attracting magnets tend to magnetize each other via "keeper" effect,
which would lead to net braking. The mechanism needs more
complexity. So perhaps combine a flywheel with a pendulum, or a
flywheel with small parts rotating independently. Or perhaps just
place a very tiny supermagnet at the right spot between ceramic
magnets on the rotor & stator? Better yet, let one of the ceramic
magnets spin, that way it will present a random spot of fresh ceramic
for demagnetization.

I think it should be trivial to accomplish this for a few cycles (a
couple seconds acceleration before the effect poops out, like
unwinding a spring.) The real trick would be to juggle things so the
demagnetization is repetitive but very very small, enough where it
could keep a flywheel spinning anomalously for long minutes before the
magnets weakened too much.

If these are feasible, I would suspect that similar fake PM machines
already exist and would have been central to known PM scams. (The
"Searl Device" suspiciously resembles one possible setup, where the
patterns on the large central magnet would be slowly wiped out by the
orbiting ones.) Such an effect could have been repeatedly accidentally
discovered. Imagine owning a spring-powered wheel, but one where the
spring is invisible and takes hours/days to unwind. Pranking
possibilities! Perhaps even risk assassination by oil companies and
the Illuminati! In any case, one could go online and start soaking
investors immediately.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:53 am   

"Bill Beaty" <billb_at_eskimo.com> wrote in message
news:13a12f95-f4d4-4b2c-ac60-98b72f553a8e_at_b36g2000pri.googlegroups.com...

I've wanted to build a Dulac pile. They have been used for PM
devices.
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/emotor/duluc.html

Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:33 am   

Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental
property of it.
Of course, limited by its life span.
See: Newton's first.
"Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that
state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. "
Things move forever as long as they're not disturbed.

I guess that means perpetual motion is quite boring.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:15 am   

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:09:00 -0800 (PST), Bill Beaty <billb_at_eskimo.com>
wrote:



Too late. The farting assholes in this group beat you to it... except
that their 'motion' is comprised of being perpetually stupid in Usenet.

Damned shame too.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:53 pm   

"Bill Beaty" <billb_at_eskimo.com> wrote in message
news:40d5706f-ce2d-4248-9020-c1e5d7391b63_at_n7g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

Ah, but that's only if you use Cu(2+) electrolyte, otherwise there's no
copper to reduce and it's an inert electrode.

Aluminum in NaOH makes about 0.8V against hydrogen. If you burn the H2
(maybe with MnO2 as in a dry cell, or with O2 in a fuel cell, making this an
aluminum-air cell) you should get closer to 2V.

Interesting trivia: aluminum is not corroded by copper sulfate. But, add a
grain of NaCl and watch out! Chloride catalyzes the displacement reaction.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:07 pm   

On Mar 11, 4:53 pm, "amdx" <a...@knology.net> wrote:

Those give out nanowatts for centuries, enough for a Franklin Bell.
Perhaps a "Duluc Damp-Pile" would produce the milliwatts needed to
keep an electrostatic motor slowly turning for a few months.

For the metal foil, I notice that Al plus Cu electrochem series gives
2.0V output. But I don't know if the Al oxide layer would be too
much of a problem. If you had a hand-crank embossing roller device,
you could make your own zinc or magnesium foil. Then use silver-leaf
from an art supplier.



(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb a eskimocom http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:13 pm   

On Mar 12, 12:15 am, BarnCat
<Barn...@keepingthevermindownatthebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

The net mechanical gain could possibly compensate the thermal losses
of a simple demagnetizer section. I'll assume there's a few
microwatts left over to keep a flywheel slowly turning against air
friction. Very cool if true!!! Aaaaaaaand, if that works, then
perhaps we can build a version resembling a 'parametric
oscillator.' Add a battery! This would resemble a battery-powered
ferrite coil (although a constant-current source would be more
appropriate.) As the whirling supermagnets passed by, the
demagnetization would produce tiny alternating pulses of back-EMF.
Then the battery would re-magnetize the ferrite after a small delay.

That one I'm not so sure about (except as existence-proof from
steorn!) But my earlier one is pretty simple, so probably the only
challenge would be to make it run for hours rather than seconds.

(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb a eskimocom http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:22 am   

a7yvm109gf5d1_at_netzero.com wrote:


That's why Nymnuts will never leave. He's always 'disturbed'.


--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'

Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:35 am   

On Mar 11, 5:52 pm, a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote:

] Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental

You're talking about 'perpetual drifting.'

The english word "Perpetual Motion" is actually defined more like
"perpetual work," or "perpetual motion against friction," or
"perpetual acceleration." A solar system or a frictionless flywheel
is *not* an example of a PM device, if we're using the usual meaning
of "PM."

When you build a successful PM machine, everyone knows about it. They
notice the large new crater in your neighborhood where your garage
once stood.


(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb a eskimocom http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:02 am   

On 3/11/10 7:52 PM, a7yvm109gf5d1_at_netzero.com wrote:

The term perpetual motion, taken literally, refers to movement that goes
on forever. However, the term more commonly refers to any device or
system that perpetually (indefinitely) produces more energy than it
consumes, resulting in a net output of energy for indefinite time.

The total momentum-energy of the universe is fixed and constant.

Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:52 am   

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:02:50 -0600, Sam Wormley <swormley1_at_gmail.com>
wrote:



Yes... fixed at the value of ALL... and NOTHING.

If our "Universe" is a mere "bubble" inside a larger Superverse, then
your claim needs re-evaluation.

Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:11 am   

On 14/03/2010 04:52, The Great Attractor wrote:

Only if shown to be untrue by experiment.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:15 pm   

On 3/13/10 10:52 PM, The Great Attractor wrote:

Maybe not.

Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:56 pm   

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:15:07 -0500, Sam Wormley <swormley1_at_gmail.com>
wrote:



In the grand, quantum scheme of things, I guess perhaps not.

Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:36 pm   

On Mar 11, 5:09 pm, Bill Beaty <bi...@eskimo.com> wrote:
[...]
Hardly worth the design time. Simply sprinkle some saw dust
and syrup on a real machine 'till it stops working. Then
you will have a fake machine.

Sue...