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Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Sun May 05, 2019 1:45 am   



news18 <news18_at_woa.com.au> wrote:
Quote:
On Fri, 03 May 2019 22:15:56 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

In which case the intended operating voltage of the circuit may be 6V,
and connecting 12V may cause the voltage regulator to heat up much more
than its heatsinking was designed to handle. Hence even if the regulator
itself is rated for, say, 30V, it will be exposed to excessive heat and
fail early (though probably not immediately).

The cost between electrolytic capacitors of different voltage ratings
often isn't very great, so overspecifying them may be worth the small
extra cost for higher priced devices, given that they are a common point
of failure. Deciding to connect a voltage to a circuit just on the basis
that it's a little bit lower than the capacitor rating strikes me as an
approach that's likely to cause as much harm as good.

Sure, it's a bad idea to connect a higher voltage than the capacitor
rating. But as far as determining what voltage you _will_ connect to it,
I don't see how that gets you anywhere.

Ther Op was discussing a hack, not circuitry design.


Yes, and if their approach to hacking were to power any circuit with
16V rated capacitors from 12V, I expect that it will often lead to
failures. The explanation for that obviously requires reference to
the design of the circuit, and why decisions made during that design
may not match expectations.

--
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#_ < |\| |< _#

#BoycottEurovision2019
Guest

Sun May 05, 2019 2:45 am   



RMD wrote:
Quote:
On Sat, 4 May 2019 10:19:10 +1000, "#BoycottEurovision2019"
jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:

RMD wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2019 05:44:52 GMT, rmd_at_invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:

Hello All,

I have a Kogan internet radio which worked fine for years and then
conked out.

It seemed to me the power supply had failed, so I pulled it apart
to have a look-see. It has a 100VAC-240VAC to DC voltage
converter as one unit, and then follwed by a voltage regulator
card which develops and sends various voltages off to different
sections of the radio.

It turns out the initial 100VAC-240VAC to DC voltage converter has
failed. 240AC in and nothing out!

I've proved this by sticking metal pins into the DC output wires
and connecting an external variable DC power supply to these pins.
The radio then plays again. Currently I'm feeding it 12Volts DC,
and the radio stops working if I wind the voltage down to about 8
volts.

I'm not planning to try to repair the faulty module. My intent is
to feed it with an external plug-pack. I have no circuit
description or repair manual for this radio.

Mu question is this:

Does anyone know what the DC voltage output is from this particular
100VAC-250VAC module? Or what they typically are?

I'd like to feed the correct voltage from a plug-pack into the
subsequent multi-voltage regulator.

Ross

Thank you all for your comments.

This radio, like so many consumer goods these days, isn't really
designed for repair. It is hard to get it apart enough to actually
look for component or module identification numbers, leaving aside
old person dodgy close-up vision!

dead right about that, if it breaks - it's all designed to be thrown
away. Its impossible to fix most things even if you wanted to

The surface mount components are too tiny to handle,
without proper equipment you can't solder the little black
speck of a resistor/capacitor/transistor?

Sometimes You can even see them to distinguish what they are.

you can't pick the damn things up with tweezers, you're more than
likely squeeze it too tight where component just flies out of your
grasp & its lost forever!

if you managed to get the component on the board to solder, more
than likely it'll stick to the wet solder & burn up without sticking
to circuit board.

the counter argument of course is that electronic devices haven't
been this plentiful & cheep .

I fix these things because I'm of an age (73 years old) where we fixed
things as a matter of course. But I must confess I've already bought
the replacement internet radio with more features etc.


Same here.
I can't believe the amount of stuff people throw out, & most of it
serviceable/repairable.
Some stuff left on the kerb that I've come across have been in working
condition.

Does anybody know how to replace the fuse in a microwave these days?
Why bother for $99 you can buy a 20L oven brand new .

what about all those bubble jet printers that are used once,
the next time you need to use it,
the heads are clogged, you leave it out on the kerb & head
on down to officeworks for a replacement.

The politicians & others keep saying *we need coal energy* for our
lifestyle,
yet 'our lifestyle' is wasting energy, throwing out working/reparable items.

what happens in my neighborhood, you multiply that all over Australia &
there is insane amount of wasted energy
( energy consumed to make stuff & ship it here )
going straight into land fill.

Yet all that CO2 created in manufacture still in the atmosphere , and the
bubble jet printer in land fill somewhere.

Quote:

It amuses me to try to fix these things, but minus any service
information, just to make it more interesting technically. (Some
things I've tinkered with on and off for months before finally fixing
it.) Btw some of the stuff is glued together, so no easy dis-assembly
is really possible any more with these items.


just as rewarding as solving a puzzle or finishing a crossword .
Quote:

I don't deal with any surface mount stuff. But many faults are still
not complicated things. Dry joints etc still happen. Smile


I've repaired an early iphone 3 which had swollen battery that
deformed/curved the circuit board, yet managed to power on once I got an
equivalent sized battery for it.

Irony is even though 'hardware works', I'd be lucky to find an app. from the
app. store that'll work on it.

in my experience most of the manufactured surface mount computer boards etc.
are bullet proof , if they're not physically damaged can be made to work.

however repairing Iphones damages Apples business model,
i.e. trying to get you to buy new phone every 18months,
they're trying to make it *illegal to repair your own phone*!.

"Apple Is Telling Lawmakers People Will Hurt Themselves if They Try to Fix
iPhones"
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/wjvdb4/apple-is-telling-lawmakers-people-will-hurt-themselves-if-they-try-to-fix-iphones

Quote:

Btw I wound the voltage to this radio up to 15 Volts or so without
anything obviously awful happening.

Interestingly it draws more current if I lower the voltage to 9 Volts,
and less current at a higher voltages. The regulator card following is
a switching regulator type producing the various voltages the radio
requires. Anyway, it means it doesn't look like a resistor as it puts
out the same power output over a range of input voltages.



You can afford to buy replacement (E.g TV's, phones, computers etc.)
with probably more features and at a cheaper price.


The AC module is essentially covered with a metal shield and is
basically un-identified. It possibly needs to be dis-assembled to
see any identification numbers. Also, actually seeing where to check
voltages elswhere etc is not that obvious or easy to do.

I've soak tested the radio at 12V for 24 hours with no obvious signs
of distress occuring. The radio draws 300-400mA while playing and
about 70mA on standby.

Anyway, I then looked through all my e-waste plug-packs. (Things
die, but not usually the plug-pack!) Many of these plugpacks are
unregulated, so allegedly 12V plugpacks put out about 19V un;oaded.
I thought that particular 12V plugpack is not desirable for my
planned application!

I found a 7.5V/500mA plugpack, once used to power a defunct 6-way
LAN switch. This plug-pack put out 11.5V unloaded.

So I tried it temporarily hooked up to the radio. It falls to 10.5V
when the radio is on and is at 11.2V when the radio is on standby.

So, seems good to me! :)

Anyway, I'll leave it soaking for a week or so with this temporary
hook-up to see if it keeps working without letting the smoke out.

Ross


Jasen Betts
Guest

Sun May 05, 2019 3:45 am   



On 2019-05-05, #BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
RMD wrote:

on down to officeworks for a replacement.

The politicians & others keep saying *we need coal energy* for our
lifestyle,
yet 'our lifestyle' is wasting energy, throwing out working/reparable items.


What they mean is that their lifestyle is financially supported by the coal
mining industry.

Those throw-away items were probably not produced using Australian Coal power

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

news18
Guest

Sun May 05, 2019 5:45 am   



On Sun, 05 May 2019 00:27:04 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Quote:
news18 <news18_at_woa.com.au> wrote:
On Fri, 03 May 2019 22:15:56 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

In which case the intended operating voltage of the circuit may be 6V,
and connecting 12V may cause the voltage regulator to heat up much
more than its heatsinking was designed to handle. Hence even if the
regulator itself is rated for, say, 30V, it will be exposed to
excessive heat and fail early (though probably not immediately).

The cost between electrolytic capacitors of different voltage ratings
often isn't very great, so overspecifying them may be worth the small
extra cost for higher priced devices, given that they are a common
point of failure. Deciding to connect a voltage to a circuit just on
the basis that it's a little bit lower than the capacitor rating
strikes me as an approach that's likely to cause as much harm as good.

Sure, it's a bad idea to connect a higher voltage than the capacitor
rating. But as far as determining what voltage you _will_ connect to
it,
I don't see how that gets you anywhere.

Ther Op was discussing a hack, not circuitry design.

Yes, and if their approach to hacking were to power any circuit with 16V
rated capacitors from 12V, I expect that it will often lead to failures.
The explanation for that obviously requires reference to the design of
the circuit, and why decisions made during that design may not match
expectations.


Cost of 12V hack, Negligible. cost os x volt hack immessurable and a
whole pile of angst. it either breathes magic smoke => trash, or it works
and you contine to enjoy it.

In your world, the Titanic would have been another Bermud Triangle ship
disappearence.

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Mon May 06, 2019 12:45 am   



news18 <news18_at_woa.com.au> wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 05 May 2019 00:27:04 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
news18 <news18_at_woa.com.au> wrote:

Ther Op was discussing a hack, not circuitry design.

Yes, and if their approach to hacking were to power any circuit with 16V
rated capacitors from 12V, I expect that it will often lead to failures.
The explanation for that obviously requires reference to the design of
the circuit, and why decisions made during that design may not match
expectations.

Cost of 12V hack, Negligible. cost os x volt hack immessurable and a
whole pile of angst. it either breathes magic smoke => trash, or it works
and you contine to enjoy it.


You have quite a different approach to these things then. If I set
out to repair something and then break it further, I consider that
a personal failing.

Looking into the circuit design in order to carry out a proper repair
can be educational too, though that's limited with cheap modern
devices due to lack of available schematics and undocumented chips.
Personally I'd likely choose not to repair something if there was
so little information that I had to guess supply voltages, I'd
probably put it aside in case one day I want to dig deeper into
reverse engineering it.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Mon May 06, 2019 12:45 am   



#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
Quote:

in my experience most of the manufactured surface mount computer boards etc.
are bullet proof , if they're not physically damaged can be made to work.


I wish you could tell that to some laptop motherboards that I have.
It always annoys me that if it gets to the point where the
motherboard's the problem, that's the end of any attempt at repair
(short of a new motherboard, which doesn't count in my book).

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

news18
Guest

Mon May 06, 2019 5:45 am   



On Sun, 05 May 2019 23:10:38 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Quote:
news18 <news18_at_woa.com.au> wrote:
On Sun, 05 May 2019 00:27:04 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
news18 <news18_at_woa.com.au> wrote:

Ther Op was discussing a hack, not circuitry design.

Yes, and if their approach to hacking were to power any circuit with
16V rated capacitors from 12V, I expect that it will often lead to
failures.
The explanation for that obviously requires reference to the design of
the circuit, and why decisions made during that design may not match
expectations.

Cost of 12V hack, Negligible. cost os x volt hack immessurable and a
whole pile of angst. it either breathes magic smoke => trash, or it
works and you contine to enjoy it.

You have quite a different approach to these things then. If I set out
to repair something and then break it further, I consider that a
personal failing


As opposed to making the sucker work again and getting on with my life.
Quote:

Looking into the circuit design in order to carry out a proper repair
can be educational too, though that's limited with cheap modern devices
due to lack of available schematics and undocumented chips. Personally
I'd likely choose not to repair something if there was so little
information that I had to guess supply voltages, I'd probably put it
aside in case one day I want to dig deeper into reverse engineering it.


I hope you have lost of free storage.

#BoycottEurovision2019
Guest

Tue May 07, 2019 1:45 am   



Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Quote:
#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:

in my experience most of the manufactured surface mount computer
boards etc. are bullet proof , if they're not physically damaged can
be made to work.

I wish you could tell that to some laptop motherboards that I have.
It always annoys me that if it gets to the point where the
motherboard's the problem, that's the end of any attempt at repair
(short of a new motherboard, which doesn't count in my book).


I'm going by my experiences with mobile phones, they seem to be made well .
I guess they have to take abuse like being bent, & dropped etc. weak point
being the screen.
IMO Laptops vary in quality in manufacture, I've seen some that have had the
soldered add-ons like SD card /USB slot, tear away from the board over use.

There are other issues like the ribbon cable foil separating off plastic
ribbon, or the latch
that secures it breaks off, because it's cheap & flimsy.

Some manufactures cut corners, others do thorough job
but you pay more for it.

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Wed May 08, 2019 12:45 am   



#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

I wish you could tell that to some laptop motherboards that I have.
It always annoys me that if it gets to the point where the
motherboard's the problem, that's the end of any attempt at repair
(short of a new motherboard, which doesn't count in my book).

I'm going by my experiences with mobile phones, they seem to be made well .
I guess they have to take abuse like being bent, & dropped etc. weak point
being the screen.
IMO Laptops vary in quality in manufacture, I've seen some that have had the
soldered add-ons like SD card /USB slot, tear away from the board over use.

There are other issues like the ribbon cable foil separating off plastic
ribbon, or the latch that secures it breaks off, because it's cheap &
flimsy.


Yeah, that's what I pull them apart looking for, and it seems to
often turn out to be the motherboard that's the problem in the
end. However by the time I've concluded that, the laptop is
completely disassembled (probably except for the screen) and I've
done countless tests on the individual parts. So the failures are
probably a lot more memorable than "swap the HDD... ah, it works
fine", "change the RAM... ah, it works fine", "new BIOS battery...
ah, it works fine" etc. successes.

In fact I recently bought a "broken" laptop very cheaply from Ebay,
which turned out to boot normally simply after I'd mounted the
Windows partition in Linux after booting to a Live CD. The Linux
ntfs-3g driver fixed the file system problem without me even
telling it to do so, and the hardware passed all the tests that I
threw at it.

Quote:
Some manufactures cut corners, others do thorough job
but you pay more for it.


Perhaps, though I think there's a fair bit of luck involved these
days. Especially with laptops and phones where everything is being
crammed in to as tight a space as possible. It would be nice if
someone still made thick, heavy, but reliable laptops like the old
IBM (pre-Lenovo) Thinkpads, for example.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

#BoycottEurovision2019
Guest

Wed May 08, 2019 8:45 am   



Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Quote:
#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

I wish you could tell that to some laptop motherboards that I have.
It always annoys me that if it gets to the point where the
motherboard's the problem, that's the end of any attempt at repair
(short of a new motherboard, which doesn't count in my book).

I'm going by my experiences with mobile phones, they seem to be made
well . I guess they have to take abuse like being bent, & dropped
etc. weak point being the screen.
IMO Laptops vary in quality in manufacture, I've seen some that have
had the soldered add-ons like SD card /USB slot, tear away from the
board over use.

There are other issues like the ribbon cable foil separating off
plastic ribbon, or the latch that secures it breaks off, because
it's cheap & flimsy.


Yeah, that's what I pull them apart looking for, and it seems to
often turn out to be the motherboard that's the problem in the
end. However by the time I've concluded that, the laptop is
completely disassembled (probably except for the screen) and I've
done countless tests on the individual parts. So the failures are
probably a lot more memorable than "swap the HDD... ah, it works
fine", "change the RAM... ah, it works fine", "new BIOS battery...
ah, it works fine" etc. successes.


I don't think you can do more than look for the obvious faults, if the
problem is at chip level , just toss it out.

Quote:

In fact I recently bought a "broken" laptop very cheaply from Ebay,
which turned out to boot normally simply after I'd mounted the
Windows partition in Linux after booting to a Live CD. The Linux
ntfs-3g driver fixed the file system problem without me even
telling it to do so, and the hardware passed all the tests that I
threw at it.


Had something similar happen, I had a laptop that I thought the camera
didn't
work in windows (after trying different drivers ) , when I booted it up in
linux live CD , the camera was detected & working!

I presume the general 'vanilla' drivers in linux are better written or less
'buggy' than window drivers .

Quote:

Some manufactures cut corners, others do thorough job
but you pay more for it.

Perhaps, though I think there's a fair bit of luck involved these
days. Especially with laptops and phones where everything is being
crammed in to as tight a space as possible. It would be nice if
someone still made thick, heavy, but reliable laptops like the old
IBM (pre-Lenovo) Thinkpads, for example.


I get the feeling electronics devices will have most of the 'superfluous
components' removed and have them integrated into a handful of chips,
& that's it!

Totally impossible to repair.

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Thu May 09, 2019 12:45 am   



#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
Quote:

I get the feeling electronics devices will have most of the 'superfluous
components' removed and have them integrated into a handful of chips,
& that's it!

Totally impossible to repair.


That's been happening for half a century at least, and while in the
past it was still possible to buy most of the chips replacing
individual parts, now custom chips and BGA chip packages have become
so common that most consumer goods are either impractical or
impossible to repair if one of their main chips dies.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

RMD
Guest

Fri May 10, 2019 12:45 am   



On Wed, 01 May 2019 05:44:52 GMT, rmd_at_invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:
Hi All,

Quote:

I've proved this by sticking metal pins into the DC output wires and
connecting an external variable DC power supply to these pins. The
radio then plays again. Currently I'm feeding it 12Volts DC, and the
radio stops working if I wind the voltage down to about 8 volts.


I've soak-tested theis radio with an unregulated 7.5V plugpack, which
puts out 11.2V on standby and 10.5V when the radio is on. The radio is
still working fine after 10 days, mostly operating on standby.

I've done further experiments on powering this radio. It will actually
work if powered by a regulated 7.5V plug-pack. Testing it with a
regulated variable supply it "stutters" at 7V.

I've ordered on-line a regulated plug-pack with selectable voltages
including 7,5V and 9V. I'll probably operate it on 7.5V unless I need
to boost it to 9V for reliable operation.

I can only find one accessible power supply capacitor, which, looking
with a mirror is 1000uF, but my old eyes are quite unable to see what
the voltage rating is. However, on what voltages I've subjected the
radio to already this electrolytic has handled up to 15V without
failing.

I'm just pleased I've rescued this radio from the e-waste bin. Looking
at the radio more closely, if it was other than the power supply
failure that actually happened, it would be likely impossible to fix

Btw Frontier Radio's former website, where you could register internet
radios and set up personalised station lists, has gone belly-up from
May 7th. The new Frontier Radio site has no facilities for radio
registration or personalised station lists.

Ross

Clifford Heath
Guest

Fri May 10, 2019 1:45 am   



On 8/5/19 5:19 pm, #BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:
Quote:
I get the feeling electronics devices will have most of the 'superfluous
components' removed and have them integrated into a handful of chips,
& that's it!

Totally impossible to repair.


The trade-off is that by removing most of the components, they've also
removed almost all of the board-level failure modes. I view this change
as almost entirely positive.

The far more common failure modes reflect external hardware, which is
just as vulnerable (but also just as repairable) as it always was. The
reduction in cost from board-level integration has changed the economics
of repair (replacement is cheaper) so the external hardware also tends
to be down-graded - no sense fitting high quality stuff if it's going to
get chucked and replaced anyhow. This is not such a positive change for
the environment.

Clifford Heath.

RMD
Guest

Sat May 11, 2019 10:45 pm   



On Thu, 09 May 2019 23:01:35 GMT, rmd_at_invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:

Quote:
I can only find one accessible power supply capacitor, which, looking
with a mirror is 1000uF, but my old eyes are quite unable to see what
the voltage rating is. However, on what voltages I've subjected the
radio to already this electrolytic has handled up to 15V without
failing.


I used a small dental mirror and was finally able to work out this
1000uF power supply smoothing capacitor is 16V rated.

Also, feeling around the various other components, which are all in
sealed tinned enclosures, I can't detect any warmth which might
indicate anything is overheating either on standby or while operating.

Ross

#BoycottEurovision2019
Guest

Sat May 11, 2019 11:45 pm   



Clifford Heath wrote:
Quote:
On 8/5/19 5:19 pm, #BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:
I get the feeling electronics devices will have most of the
'superfluous components' removed and have them integrated into a
handful of chips, & that's it!

Totally impossible to repair.

The trade-off is that by removing most of the components, they've also
removed almost all of the board-level failure modes. I view this
change as almost entirely positive.

The far more common failure modes reflect external hardware, which is
just as vulnerable (but also just as repairable) as it always was. The
reduction in cost from board-level integration has changed the
economics of repair (replacement is cheaper) so the external hardware
also tends to be down-graded - no sense fitting high quality stuff if
it's going to get chucked and replaced anyhow. This is not such a
positive change for the environment.

Clifford Heath


Once the boards are rid of 'superfluous stuff', they'd probable have easier
time extracting valuable metals, when all they're processing is integrated
circuits

"A tonne of mobile phones (about 6,000 handsets), for example, contains
about 130kg of copper, 3.5kg of silver, 340 grams of gold and 140 grams of
palladium, worth tens of thousands of dollars.
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/unsw-microfactories-turn-unwanted-e-waste-valuable-metals

they just have to perfect the method of recycling & upscale for large scale
processing.

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