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Keyless home doorlock

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Gordon Levi
Guest

Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:35 pm   



I have a new "keyless" car and I'm a total convert. I would like to
add keyless entry to my front door and even after eliminating those
that need a keypad for entry there are several choices. Unfortunately
they all seem to require another device on my key ring. What I would
like is an electronic lock that can be programmed to accept the signal
from an existing car key.

Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.

Don McKenzie
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:31 am   



On 2/09/2016 12:35 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
Quote:
I have a new "keyless" car and I'm a total convert. I would like to
add keyless entry to my front door and even after eliminating those
that need a keypad for entry there are several choices. Unfortunately
they all seem to require another device on my key ring. What I would
like is an electronic lock that can be programmed to accept the signal
from an existing car key.

Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.


After getting this up and running, how would you feel about home security, if your card keys were lost or stolen?

Cheers Don...



--
Don McKenzie

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Now located at: https://www.shop-dontronics.com

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Many other items discounted up to 95% off.
Also discounts on Sparkfun, CCS, SimmStick, etc.

D Walford
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:33 am   



On 2/09/2016 12:35 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
> I have a new "keyless" car and I'm a total convert.

Don't like it, can't see the point.

I would like to
Quote:
add keyless entry to my front door and even after eliminating those
that need a keypad for entry there are several choices. Unfortunately
they all seem to require another device on my key ring. What I would
like is an electronic lock that can be programmed to accept the signal
from an existing car key.

Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.

It would be possible but expect it to cost a lot of money.
Other options would be a finger print reader or optical scanner.

--
Daryl

Adrian Jansen
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:44 am   



On 2/09/2016 12:35 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
Quote:
I have a new "keyless" car and I'm a total convert. I would like to
add keyless entry to my front door and even after eliminating those
that need a keypad for entry there are several choices. Unfortunately
they all seem to require another device on my key ring. What I would
like is an electronic lock that can be programmed to accept the signal
from an existing car key.

Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.

I doubt you can find enough info to add a second 'channel' to an
existing key.

I did consider though that one could have a bluetooth device at the
door, set up so that when it recognised an already paired smartphone, or
some other easily carried device, it would trigger the unlock switch on
a typical electric strike ( the bit of the lock that holds the tongue ).

Pretty simple to do, if you know a bit about how to set up bluetooth
devices.

There are of course also plenty of keyless systems using RFID tags
already, but yes, it does mean carrying another tag. Just like carrying
a front door key as well as your car keys.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DL320-Digital-Keyless-Electronic-Code-Door-Lock-RFID-Card-Entry-Keypad-Handle-/262041238919?var=&hash=item3d02dffd87:m:mLc7F6xJek4BXNJRt3rZF3w
--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen

Chris Jones
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:25 am   



On 02/09/2016 08:31, Don McKenzie wrote:
Quote:
On 2/09/2016 12:35 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
I have a new "keyless" car and I'm a total convert. I would like to
add keyless entry to my front door and even after eliminating those
that need a keypad for entry there are several choices. Unfortunately
they all seem to require another device on my key ring. What I would
like is an electronic lock that can be programmed to accept the signal
from an existing car key.

Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.

After getting this up and running, how would you feel about home
security, if your card keys were lost or stolen?


Thieves don't even need the keys:
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/oh-good-new-hack-can-unlock-100-million-volkswagens/

I know from personal experience (in Europe) that modern cars get stolen
very easily. (I don't know whether this is also happening in Australia
yet.) I have a theory that car makers deliberately don't try too hard to
make the immobiliser and locking secure - Just about every time
someone's recent-model car gets stolen, they buy a new one, usually the
same brand. The worse the immobiliser works, the more new cars they
sell, so they make sure the immobiliser doesn't work too well.

Trevor Wilson
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:07 am   



On 2/09/2016 9:25 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
Quote:
On 02/09/2016 08:31, Don McKenzie wrote:
On 2/09/2016 12:35 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
I have a new "keyless" car and I'm a total convert. I would like to
add keyless entry to my front door and even after eliminating those
that need a keypad for entry there are several choices. Unfortunately
they all seem to require another device on my key ring. What I would
like is an electronic lock that can be programmed to accept the signal
from an existing car key.

Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.

After getting this up and running, how would you feel about home
security, if your card keys were lost or stolen?

Thieves don't even need the keys:
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/oh-good-new-hack-can-unlock-100-million-volkswagens/


I know from personal experience (in Europe) that modern cars get stolen
very easily. (I don't know whether this is also happening in Australia
yet.) I have a theory that car makers deliberately don't try too hard to
make the immobiliser and locking secure - Just about every time
someone's recent-model car gets stolen, they buy a new one, usually the
same brand. The worse the immobiliser works, the more new cars they
sell, so they make sure the immobiliser doesn't work too well.


**I don't understand what they're thinking. My last car was a 1992
Commodore. When I bought it, my mechanic remarked that it was the least
stolen Commodore. Looking at the security system, it is easy to
understand why. It had the usual remote controlled immobiliser/alarm
system. The kicker was that the keyswitch to disable the alarm was
inside the passenger side door. To access it, the door had to be opened.
On exiting the car, I placed the key in the lock and turned it 90
degrees. This enabled the 'deadlocking' function. It was then impossible
to open the doors (including the tailgate) with the alarm button/central
locking. The key was essential. Even if a thief smashed a window, it was
impossible to open the doors. A very difficult car to steal. And that
was back in 1992!

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Chris Jones
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:46 am   



On 02/09/2016 10:07, Trevor Wilson wrote:
Quote:
On 2/09/2016 9:25 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 02/09/2016 08:31, Don McKenzie wrote:
On 2/09/2016 12:35 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
I have a new "keyless" car and I'm a total convert. I would like to
add keyless entry to my front door and even after eliminating those
that need a keypad for entry there are several choices. Unfortunately
they all seem to require another device on my key ring. What I would
like is an electronic lock that can be programmed to accept the signal
from an existing car key.

Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.

After getting this up and running, how would you feel about home
security, if your card keys were lost or stolen?

Thieves don't even need the keys:
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/oh-good-new-hack-can-unlock-100-million-volkswagens/



I know from personal experience (in Europe) that modern cars get stolen
very easily. (I don't know whether this is also happening in Australia
yet.) I have a theory that car makers deliberately don't try too hard to
make the immobiliser and locking secure - Just about every time
someone's recent-model car gets stolen, they buy a new one, usually the
same brand. The worse the immobiliser works, the more new cars they
sell, so they make sure the immobiliser doesn't work too well.


**I don't understand what they're thinking. My last car was a 1992
Commodore. When I bought it, my mechanic remarked that it was the least
stolen Commodore. Looking at the security system, it is easy to
understand why. It had the usual remote controlled immobiliser/alarm
system. The kicker was that the keyswitch to disable the alarm was
inside the passenger side door. To access it, the door had to be opened.
On exiting the car, I placed the key in the lock and turned it 90
degrees. This enabled the 'deadlocking' function. It was then impossible
to open the doors (including the tailgate) with the alarm button/central
locking. The key was essential. Even if a thief smashed a window, it was
impossible to open the doors. A very difficult car to steal. And that
was back in 1992!


Maybe they realised with models like that, that the rate of repeat
purchases by the same customer within a couple of years had dropped off,
and they decided that secure cars were a mistake from a sales perspective.

Perhaps it is not quite as deliberate as that, but if they were
considering how to invest a few million dollars, they would choose not
to invest it in an ultra-secure central locking system that has a
negative return on investment because people get to keep their cars and
not replace them because they don't get stolen.

As long as all other brands of of cars are easy to steal, there is no
marketing disadvantage in being easy to steal like every other brand.
Even if there was one car that was hard to steal, many consumers
wouldn't care enough to change their purchasing decision, especially as
(to some extent) the cost of theft gets averaged across everyone who
buys insurance.

For some reason the insurance companies don't seem to really care
either. Of course they pretend to care, with things like the half-arsed
Thatcham testing, but maybe they know that if the general public
discovered one day that new cars didn't (and couldn't) ever get stolen,
then nobody would want to buy theft insurance, and they would have
destroyed that business and the revenue stream that comes from it.
Therefore it is not in their interest to require that cars become *too*
secure.

Noddy
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:30 am   



On 02/09/16 8:33 AM, D Walford wrote:

Quote:
Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.

It would be possible but expect it to cost a lot of money.
Other options would be a finger print reader or optical scanner.


Finger print readers have been around for a while, and their accuracy
seems to be flakey. I recently motorised my workshop door and was
considering one as a secondary means of operating the door aside from
using one of the remote controls, but I couldn't find one that was
reliable enough to be completely comfortable with.

So I opted for a keypad with a proximity reader.

A lot of industrial complexes use them on security gates, and they're
fairly basic. Access is either by numbered code entry or by holding one
of the proximity tags up against the keypad for a moment. It's proven to
be very reliable, and the proximity tags themselves are in the form of
either a credit card or a keyring tag the size of a ten cent piece.

I prefer the keyring tag myself, and to open the door I simply walk up
and present my car keys to the keypad very briefly and it pops the locks
and starts the motor.

Simple.







--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

F Murtz
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:30 am   



Adrian Jansen wrote:
Quote:
On 2/09/2016 12:35 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
I have a new "keyless" car and I'm a total convert. I would like to
add keyless entry to my front door and even after eliminating those
that need a keypad for entry there are several choices. Unfortunately
they all seem to require another device on my key ring. What I would
like is an electronic lock that can be programmed to accept the signal
from an existing car key.

Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.

I doubt you can find enough info to add a second 'channel' to an
existing key.

I did consider though that one could have a bluetooth device at the
door, set up so that when it recognised an already paired smartphone, or
some other easily carried device, it would trigger the unlock switch on
a typical electric strike ( the bit of the lock that holds the tongue ).

Pretty simple to do, if you know a bit about how to set up bluetooth
devices.

There are of course also plenty of keyless systems using RFID tags
already, but yes, it does mean carrying another tag. Just like carrying
a front door key as well as your car keys.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DL320-Digital-Keyless-Electronic-Code-Door-Lock-RFID-Card-Entry-Keypad-Handle-/262041238919?var=&hash=item3d02dffd87:m:mLc7F6xJek4BXNJRt3rZF3w


You could always do what some are already doing,with implantable rfids
http://tinyurl.com/zaeblt4

Clifford Heath
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:30 am   



On 02/09/16 13:12, Noddy wrote:
Quote:
On 02/09/16 8:33 AM, D Walford wrote:
Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.
It would be possible but expect it to cost a lot of money.
Other options would be a finger print reader or optical scanner.
Finger print readers have been around for a while, and their accuracy
seems to be flakey.


Some banks still use them on each computer keyboard to unlock access.

The trouble is, some smart buggers demonstrated how to convert a
picture of a fingerprint into a 3D-printed finger that actually
works. It gives you pause...

Adrian Jansen
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:30 am   



On 2/09/2016 8:44 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:

Quote:

There are of course also plenty of keyless systems using RFID tags
already, but yes, it does mean carrying another tag. Just like carrying
a front door key as well as your car keys.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DL320-Digital-Keyless-Electronic-Code-Door-Lock-RFID-Card-Entry-Keypad-Handle-/262041238919?var=&hash=item3d02dffd87:m:mLc7F6xJek4BXNJRt3rZF3w

Stay away from the el-cheapo chinese RFID/keypad devices advertised for
around $15.00 or so, including 10 RFID tags or whatever.
A quick check shows that they mount outside your house, and inside the
plastic box is the guts, with the wiring to the electric strike fully
accessible. So prise the lid off, apply 12v ( also available from
inside the box ), to the lock wires, and that opens the door. Thats
called security, chinese style :-(

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen

Gordon Levi
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:30 am   



Don McKenzie <5V_at_2.5A> wrote:

Quote:
On 2/09/2016 12:35 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
I have a new "keyless" car and I'm a total convert. I would like to
add keyless entry to my front door and even after eliminating those
that need a keypad for entry there are several choices. Unfortunately
they all seem to require another device on my key ring. What I would
like is an electronic lock that can be programmed to accept the signal
from an existing car key.

Do they exist or could I implement one? My electronics skills are
limited to simple soldering but I'm happy to spend some time if it
might be possible with additional software.

After getting this up and running, how would you feel about home security, if your card keys were lost or stolen?


Calm! The most likely entry is by breaking one of the plentiful glass
doors or windows. Anyway, the car key is no more likely to be lost or
stolen than the current house key.

Noddy
Guest

Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:42 pm   



On 02/09/16 2:47 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:

Quote:
Finger print readers have been around for a while, and their accuracy
seems to be flakey.

Some banks still use them on each computer keyboard to unlock access.

The trouble is, some smart buggers demonstrated how to convert a
picture of a fingerprint into a 3D-printed finger that actually
works. It gives you pause...


I certainly wouldn't use one to protect anything I valued, that's for sure.


--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:05 am   



In aus.electronics Chris Jones <lugnut808_at_spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
On 02/09/2016 08:31, Don McKenzie wrote:

After getting this up and running, how would you feel about home
security, if your card keys were lost or stolen?

Thieves don't even need the keys:
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/oh-good-new-hack-can-unlock-100-million-volkswagens/


Here are some more links in post I made in aus.electronics last
year:


I just had a quick look into this, here are some links that I've
partially read, apparently these are called "Relay Attacks":

Some Swiss researchers managed to make a fool of some systems in
2010, and were kind enough to describe all you ever needed to know
about Passive Keyless Entry/Ignition systems in the process:
http://eprint.iacr.org/2010/332.pdf

Yet Wikipedia has a nice little unreferenced section saying that it's
all impossible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_key#Security_requirements

Some nifty detection methods up there by the way, though I'm not sure
I'd trust all of them.


Finally, it seems that the UK's less honest Land Rover enthusiests
have been giving people such a hard time that insurers are running
away:
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/oct/27/thieves-range-rover-keyless-locking

Though at the end, Jaguar/Land Rover suggest that the theives are
just cloning the keys. All seems a bit old-fashioned really.

"In a statement, Jaguar Land Rover said vehicle theft through the
re-programming of remote-entry keys was an on-going problem which
affected the whole industry."

But it's all right because you can just install a second system
that checks if you have a second key. A key for a key then, that's
progress...

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#


Guest

Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:34 am   



On Fri, 2 Sep 2016 10:07:28 +1000, Trevor Wilson
<trevor_at_SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

Quote:
**I don't understand what they're thinking. My last car was a 1992
Commodore. When I bought it, my mechanic remarked that it was the least
stolen Commodore. Looking at the security system, it is easy to
understand why. It had the usual remote controlled immobiliser/alarm
system. The kicker was that the keyswitch to disable the alarm was
inside the passenger side door. To access it, the door had to be opened.
On exiting the car, I placed the key in the lock and turned it 90
degrees. This enabled the 'deadlocking' function. It was then impossible
to open the doors (including the tailgate) with the alarm button/central
locking. The key was essential. Even if a thief smashed a window, it was
impossible to open the doors. A very difficult car to steal. And that
was back in 1992!


Sounds good for it's intended purpose, but also potentially dangerous
if something goes wrong and a person is trapped in the car.

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