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How to organise a solarfeed-in boycott

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Sylvia Else
Guest

Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:12 am   



Given that investment in renewables has managed to destablise the grid
(which may yet suffer a death spiral), I'm considering installing solar
panels and battery, to protect myself from blackouts.

Absent equipment failures, blackouts are caused when there is
insufficient generation capacity to meet demand. At that time, the
wholesale market price reaches its cap of $14 per kWh, which is rather
more than the derisory 12 cents or so one receives for a feed-in.

I'd probably turn my solar panels off, or at least direct my system not
to feed-in (assuming it's capable of that), during such periods because
I'd rather forgo the pittance they pay than supply power at 1% of its
market value.

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar panel
owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further blackouts, the
regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that owners got a fair
priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

Sylvia.

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:57 pm   



Sylvia Else <sylvia_at_not.at.this.address> wrote:
Quote:

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar panel
owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further blackouts, the
regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that owners got a fair
priced at such times.

But how to organise it?


The systems are probably riddled with security vulnerabilities. I say
organise a small group of people to announce that they're turning off
their supply on purpose, then hack a large number of other user's
systems to cause them to do it unwillingly. Then the regulators are
left thinking that your small group is actually much bigger than it
looked. :)

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Sylvia Else
Guest

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:53 am   



On 12/10/2017 8:57 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Quote:
Sylvia Else <sylvia_at_not.at.this.address> wrote:

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar panel
owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further blackouts, the
regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that owners got a fair
priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

The systems are probably riddled with security vulnerabilities. I say
organise a small group of people to announce that they're turning off
their supply on purpose, then hack a large number of other user's
systems to cause them to do it unwillingly. Then the regulators are
left thinking that your small group is actually much bigger than it
looked. Smile


Interesting idea, but how many systems are internet connected? Certainly
mine won't be.

Sylvia.

Trevor Wilson
Guest

Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:16 am   



On 11/10/2017 1:12 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
Given that investment in renewables has managed to destablise the grid
(which may yet suffer a death spiral), I'm considering installing solar
panels and battery, to protect myself from blackouts.

Absent equipment failures, blackouts are caused when there is
insufficient generation capacity to meet demand. At that time, the
wholesale market price reaches its cap of $14 per kWh, which is rather
more than the derisory 12 cents or so one receives for a feed-in.

I'd probably turn my solar panels off, or at least direct my system not
to feed-in (assuming it's capable of that), during such periods because
I'd rather forgo the pittance they pay than supply power at 1% of its
market value.

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar panel
owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further blackouts, the
regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that owners got a fair
priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

Sylvia.


**Well, before you commit to such an action, you need to ask yourself
the following:

* What is the average power consumption of your household per day?
* What is the maximum rated power capacity of your PV array?
* What size battery can you afford to fit?
* How long will your battery supply your household?
* How many days can you go without power?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

keithr0
Guest

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:13 pm   



On 10/12/2017 10:53 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
On 12/10/2017 8:57 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Sylvia Else <sylvia_at_not.at.this.address> wrote:

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar panel
owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further blackouts, the
regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that owners got a fair
priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

The systems are probably riddled with security vulnerabilities. I say
organise a small group of people to announce that they're turning off
their supply on purpose, then hack a large number of other user's
systems to cause them to do it unwillingly. Then the regulators are
left thinking that your small group is actually much bigger than it
looked. :)


Interesting idea, but how many systems are internet connected? Certainly
mine won't be.

Sylvia.


They recently installed a "Smart" meter here. It has a cellular
connection and sends data home every half hour. I don't know what
control capabilities there are if any through it.

Chris Jones
Guest

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:57 pm   



On 11/10/2017 13:12, Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
Given that investment in renewables has managed to destablise the grid
(which may yet suffer a death spiral), I'm considering installing solar
panels and battery, to protect myself from blackouts.

Absent equipment failures, blackouts are caused when there is
insufficient generation capacity to meet demand. At that time, the
wholesale market price reaches its cap of $14 per kWh, which is rather
more than the derisory 12 cents or so one receives for a feed-in.

I'd probably turn my solar panels off, or at least direct my system not
to feed-in (assuming it's capable of that), during such periods because
I'd rather forgo the pittance they pay than supply power at 1% of its
market value.

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar panel
owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further blackouts, the
regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that owners got a fair
priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

Sylvia.


I had thought of a similar arrangement:
When I read that one of the utilities was charging customers with PV a
higher service charge because of "the greater strain they place on the
network" or some such rubbish, I thought a good way to help the utility
with this problem: Monitor the wholesale price (I understand it can be
viewed on the internet) and help out the utility on those hot summer
days when the grid is under most strain, and the wholesale price goes
above say $2/kWh, and shut down the inverter automatically at just those
times, because the poor electricity retailer's network would really be
suffering, with the strain of the householder's PV inverter feeding in
power at 6c/kWh at those times, when it really should be coming from a
gas fired power station at full wholesale price.

You would want to be careful about causing any actual blackouts though,
as renewables get blamed even when they have nothing to do with the
cause of a blackout, so imagine the witch hunts and hostility if you
(and a million other householders that you'd probably need) succeeded in
making it true. Rather than prompting the regulator to make you get paid
fairly, they would more likely embolden various politicians to ban or
tax-to-death grid-connected solar power. So to not cause a real
blackout, you'd probably want your co-conspirators to start feeding in
again when the grid frequency actually starts dropping badly - but that
is not allowed by the mandatory anti-islanding features of the inverters
- they are legally required to shut down when the grid is collapsing.

There is a company called Reposit, that (in some areas) allows you to
work with a retailer who will compensate you more fairly for helping to
generate power when the wholesale price is high. Perhaps that is a less
antisocial option.
https://repositpower.com/

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:06 am   



Sylvia Else <sylvia_at_not.at.this.address> wrote:
Quote:
On 12/10/2017 8:57 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Sylvia Else <sylvia_at_not.at.this.address> wrote:

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar panel
owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further blackouts, the
regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that owners got a fair
priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

The systems are probably riddled with security vulnerabilities. I say
organise a small group of people to announce that they're turning off
their supply on purpose, then hack a large number of other user's
systems to cause them to do it unwillingly. Then the regulators are
left thinking that your small group is actually much bigger than it
looked. :)


Interesting idea, but how many systems are internet connected? Certainly
mine won't be.


I don't really know about these feed-in systems. I assumed they'd all
be internet connected so that the power companies know how much power
you've contributed, but I guess they use the smart meters for that?

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

~misfit~
Guest

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:28 am   



Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
Given that investment in renewables has managed to destablise the grid
(which may yet suffer a death spiral), I'm considering installing
solar panels and battery, to protect myself from blackouts.

Absent equipment failures, blackouts are caused when there is
insufficient generation capacity to meet demand. At that time, the
wholesale market price reaches its cap of $14 per kWh, which is rather
more than the derisory 12 cents or so one receives for a feed-in.

I'd probably turn my solar panels off, or at least direct my system
not to feed-in (assuming it's capable of that), during such periods
because I'd rather forgo the pittance they pay than supply power at
1% of its market value.

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar
panel owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further
blackouts, the regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that
owners got a fair priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

Sylvia.


First get your solar panels. Then go on facebook. This is politics again,
not electronics.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

Sylvia Else
Guest

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:01 am   



On 13/10/2017 9:28 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Quote:
Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
Given that investment in renewables has managed to destablise the grid
(which may yet suffer a death spiral), I'm considering installing
solar panels and battery, to protect myself from blackouts.

Absent equipment failures, blackouts are caused when there is
insufficient generation capacity to meet demand. At that time, the
wholesale market price reaches its cap of $14 per kWh, which is rather
more than the derisory 12 cents or so one receives for a feed-in.

I'd probably turn my solar panels off, or at least direct my system
not to feed-in (assuming it's capable of that), during such periods
because I'd rather forgo the pittance they pay than supply power at
1% of its market value.

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar
panel owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further
blackouts, the regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that
owners got a fair priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

Sylvia.

First get your solar panels. Then go on facebook. This is politics again,
not electronics.


Did the subject line mislead you?

Sylvia


Guest

Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:51 pm   



Ask PM Turnbull to join in - he has 14 kW worth of panels on his house.

Sylvia Else
Guest

Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:08 pm   



On 14/10/2017 9:51 PM, bruce56_at_topmail.co.nz wrote:
Quote:

Ask PM Turnbull to join in - he has 14 kW worth of panels on his house.


Yes.

BTW, I've been doing a bit of research, and it appears to me that he
should have obtained planning permission (over 10kW requires it), but
that he didn't get it - no relevant DA for his property.

Sylvia.

~misfit~
Guest

Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:34 am   



Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
On 13/10/2017 9:28 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
Given that investment in renewables has managed to destablise the
grid (which may yet suffer a death spiral), I'm considering
installing solar panels and battery, to protect myself from
blackouts. Absent equipment failures, blackouts are caused when there is
insufficient generation capacity to meet demand. At that time, the
wholesale market price reaches its cap of $14 per kWh, which is
rather more than the derisory 12 cents or so one receives for a
feed-in. I'd probably turn my solar panels off, or at least direct my
system
not to feed-in (assuming it's capable of that), during such periods
because I'd rather forgo the pittance they pay than supply power at
1% of its market value.

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar
panel owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further
blackouts, the regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that
owners got a fair priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

Sylvia.

First get your solar panels. Then go on facebook. This is politics
again, not electronics.


Did the subject line mislead you?

Sylvia


Did the newsgroup name mislead you?
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

FMurtz
Guest

Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:23 pm   



~misfit~ wrote:
Quote:
Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
On 13/10/2017 9:28 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
Given that investment in renewables has managed to destablise the
grid (which may yet suffer a death spiral), I'm considering
installing solar panels and battery, to protect myself from
blackouts. Absent equipment failures, blackouts are caused when there is
insufficient generation capacity to meet demand. At that time, the
wholesale market price reaches its cap of $14 per kWh, which is
rather more than the derisory 12 cents or so one receives for a
feed-in. I'd probably turn my solar panels off, or at least direct my
system
not to feed-in (assuming it's capable of that), during such periods
because I'd rather forgo the pittance they pay than supply power at
1% of its market value.

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar
panel owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further
blackouts, the regulator would be forced to the table to ensure that
owners got a fair priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

Sylvia.

First get your solar panels. Then go on facebook. This is politics
again, not electronics.


Did the subject line mislead you?

Sylvia

Did the newsgroup name mislead you?

As there is no general electrical NG a lot of us now put electrical
discussions here as most electronic people know a bit about electricity.
And the politics of electrical distribution fits

~misfit~
Guest

Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:42 am   



Once upon a time on usenet FMurtz wrote:
Quote:
~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
On 13/10/2017 9:28 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
Given that investment in renewables has managed to destablise the
grid (which may yet suffer a death spiral), I'm considering
installing solar panels and battery, to protect myself from
blackouts. Absent equipment failures, blackouts are caused when
there is insufficient generation capacity to meet demand. At that
time, the wholesale market price reaches its cap of $14 per kWh,
which is rather more than the derisory 12 cents or so one receives for
a
feed-in. I'd probably turn my solar panels off, or at least
direct my system
not to feed-in (assuming it's capable of that), during such
periods because I'd rather forgo the pittance they pay than
supply power at 1% of its market value.

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar
panel owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further
blackouts, the regulator would be forced to the table to ensure
that owners got a fair priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

Sylvia.

First get your solar panels. Then go on facebook. This is politics
again, not electronics.


Did the subject line mislead you?

Sylvia

Did the newsgroup name mislead you?

As there is no general electrical NG a lot of us now put electrical
discussions here as most electronic people know a bit about
electricity. And the politics of electrical distribution fits


Odd that there's no aus.general etc. The NZ newsgroup heirarchy has
nz.general *and* nz.politics as well as regional groups.

Also as I'm sure you know theres a big difference between 'electrical' and
'electronic'. Even bigger between electronic and political / industrial
boycotts related to electricity.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

FMurtz
Guest

Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:35 am   



~misfit~ wrote:
Quote:
Once upon a time on usenet FMurtz wrote:
~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
On 13/10/2017 9:28 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Sylvia Else wrote:
Given that investment in renewables has managed to destablise the
grid (which may yet suffer a death spiral), I'm considering
installing solar panels and battery, to protect myself from
blackouts. Absent equipment failures, blackouts are caused when
there is insufficient generation capacity to meet demand. At that
time, the wholesale market price reaches its cap of $14 per kWh,
which is rather more than the derisory 12 cents or so one receives for
a
feed-in. I'd probably turn my solar panels off, or at least
direct my system
not to feed-in (assuming it's capable of that), during such
periods because I'd rather forgo the pittance they pay than
supply power at 1% of its market value.

Better would be to organise a boycott - get large numbers of solar
panel owners to do the same. Since this would lead to further
blackouts, the regulator would be forced to the table to ensure
that owners got a fair priced at such times.

But how to organise it?

Sylvia.

First get your solar panels. Then go on facebook. This is politics
again, not electronics.


Did the subject line mislead you?

Sylvia

Did the newsgroup name mislead you?

As there is no general electrical NG a lot of us now put electrical
discussions here as most electronic people know a bit about
electricity. And the politics of electrical distribution fits

Odd that there's no aus.general etc. The NZ newsgroup heirarchy has
nz.general *and* nz.politics as well as regional groups.

Also as I'm sure you know theres a big difference between 'electrical' and
'electronic'. Even bigger between electronic and political / industrial
boycotts related to electricity.

Cheers,

So you want to keep your electronics pure? Don't let any discussion of
electrics taint your group? There would not be one without the other and
as there is no general electrical group people do the sensible thing and
share.
Most electrical people share an interest with electronics They would not
be snobs excluding others.

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