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Tom Joad
Guest

Thu Jan 01, 2004 4:36 am   



Kai Harrekilde-Petersen <khp_at_harrekilde.dk> wrote in message news:<uwu8jsbv6.fsf_at_harrekilde.dk>...
Quote:
Y'know guys, sitting here as I am, on a different continent than
America, reading about 'Valley people crying out about "outsourcing to
aboard", is kind of odd.

dk, is that Denmark? You are also in a high-cost labor country (at
least as reckoned by the globa free traders) which means your jobs
could be exported as well.

Quote:

Netnews is a global media, and there are quite a few non-US people
contributing to the vlsi related groups. So please, consider that your
audience is not just the Valley, nor just California, and not just US
of A. It's the whole d**n world.

It's a global conversation. I'm sure this sort of thing is happening
in Europe as well as the US.


Tom Joad

Kai Harrekilde-Petersen
Guest

Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:08 am   



tomjoad_is_at_yahoo.com (Tom Joad) writes:

Quote:
Kai Harrekilde-Petersen <khp_at_harrekilde.dk> wrote in message news:<uwu8jsbv6.fsf_at_harrekilde.dk>...
Y'know guys, sitting here as I am, on a different continent than
America, reading about 'Valley people crying out about "outsourcing to
aboard", is kind of odd.

dk, is that Denmark? You are also in a high-cost labor country (at
least as reckoned by the globa free traders) which means your jobs
could be exported as well.

dk is Denmark, correct. We've definitely seen the export of of
low-tech labour from Denmark for the last 30 years or so, and the
export of high-tech is starting to happen.

Quote:
Netnews is a global media, and there are quite a few non-US people
contributing to the vlsi related groups. So please, consider that your
audience is not just the Valley, nor just California, and not just US
of A. It's the whole d**n world.

It's a global conversation. I'm sure this sort of thing is happening
in Europe as well as the US.

Indeed - that was part my point. Jobs will go where it is deemed most
economically viable to have them.


Happy new year to everyone,


Kai

tbx135
Guest

Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:44 pm   



Exporting tech jobs to India?
Alan Reynolds

January 4, 2004

Those afflicted with an irrational phobia about international trade used to
confine their raving to manufactured goods, not services. But the United
States is now said to be exporting high-paying service jobs to India,
particularly in information technology.

Worrying about U.S. companies importing services from India is a classic
example of the journalistic inclination to ignore the forest and focus on a
few twigs. The United States is by far the world's biggest exporter of
services, just as the United States is by far the leading exporter of goods.

The United States accounted for 18.1 percent of worldwide service exports in
2001, according to the WTO, up from 17 percent in 1990. India accounts for
only 1.4 percent of world service exports. India is in 21st place among
world exporters of services and in 30th place for goods. India is running a
trade deficit of about $8 billion, and that country's imports rose 20
percent in 2003. China ranks fifth among world exporters of goods (although
China accounts for 11 percent of U.S. imported goods), and it has a small
and dwindling trade surplus. China's imports rose 40 percent in 2003. Hong
Kong is a significant exporter of services, but it has a trade deficit with
the United States.

The United States had a $64.8 billion trade BEG ITAL) surplus in services in
2002, despite economic stagnation in Europe and Japan. Services accounted
for 30 percent of all U.S. exports and 43 percent ($3.1 billion) of U.S.
exports to India.

Worrying about job changes among computer professionals is yet another
example of the journalistic inclination to totally ignore any facts about
the big picture and instead generalize from small and local anecdotes.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics categorizes these allegedly vanishing jobs
among "computer and mathematical science occupations" -- i.e., computer
programmers, software engineers, systems analysts, support specialists,
network administrators, etc. These jobs exploded with the tech boom, rising
11.9 percent in 2000 alone, but such panicky hoarding of computer geeks was
no more sustainable than 5,000 on NASDAQ. Even in 2002, however, employment
in these computer-related occupations was nonetheless higher than in 1999,
and so were salaries.

In 1999, there were 2,620,080 jobs in these computer-related professions at
an average wage of $26.41. In 2002, there were 2,772,620 such jobs at $29.63
an hour ($61,630 a year). Figures on that specific job group are not
available for 2003, but professional business service payrolls were up 2.3
percent by November, when compared with the year 2000, and jobs in
information industries were up 4.9 percent. Jobs in the subgroup of
"computer systems design and related services" are down slightly from last
year but have risen steadily for the past three months.

The notion that service jobs are being lost to India is paradoxical because
similar complaints about China or Japan invariably involved disparaging U.S.
service jobs as "McJobs" -- inferior to working with a sewing machine or
wrench. In the case of India, however, even the most menial computer service
chores -- such as tech support and handling health insurance claims -- are
now being glorified as "high-wage" jobs.

Past stories about "exporting jobs" also assumed those jobs had moved to
countries with trade surpluses, such as Japan and Germany. But India has a
sizable trade deficit, and it even had a deficit in services until 2002.
This is not to suggest, however, that previous stories about trade surpluses
being a sign of economic strength made sense. On the contrary, from 1990 to
2001, employment grew by 1.2 percent a year in the United States, but by
only 0.3 percent in Japan and 0.1 percent in Germany.

Trade phobia has lost any sense of direction. The United States is now said
to lose jobs to countries with trade deficits as well as to countries with
trade surpluses, and to lose jobs in services as well as manufacturing. Some
even suggest the United States will lose most service jobs to India and most
manufacturing jobs to China. But without jobs, how could Americans keep
buying all those imports?

A New York Times report claimed India is attracting a lot of direct
investment from multinational corporations. Yet Morgan Stanley reports:
"Private corporate investment (in India) is estimated to have declined to
4.7 percent of GDP in 2003 from 9.6 percent in 1996. ... In April to
September 2003, FDI investments have declined by 63 percent compared to the
same period last year."

The United States has always imported and exported services as well as
goods. So what? Even if we ignore this country's huge and growing dominance
of world service exports, it would still be delusional to speak of importing
services as equivalent to exporting jobs. The notion that "exports create
jobs" (every commerce secretary's favorite slogan) is neither more nor less
true than the idea that imports create jobs. Work is involved in all
creation and marketing of goods, services and financial assets. Work is also
involved with the extra investment resulting from a net inflow of foreign
capital, otherwise known as a "current account deficit." Growth of
employment is related to growth of the economy, not to imports or exports or
the gap between them.

If the United States was really losing more jobs than it was gaining, then
employment would be falling. But employment is rising. There were 138.6
million civilians with jobs in November, up from 136.5 million a year
earlier. The number of U.S. jobs doubled in fewer than 40 years. If the
rapidly expanding number of jobs were inferior to the ones that preceded
them, then incomes would be falling. But incomes, too, are rising. Real
hourly compensation kept rising even in the recent recession and is now up
more than 26 percent since 1980. Real disposable income (which excludes
stock market gains) rose at a brisk 3.9 percent annual rate cent from April
to November.

The media blitz about imported goods or services resulting in the best jobs
being relocated to some variable list of countries -- first Japan and
Germany, now India and China -- has never been anything more than
unadulterated hogwash.



2003 Creators Syndicate

EdwardH
Guest

Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:12 pm   



An interesting article but is it relevant to the current discussion?

ASIC/FPGA Engineers represent a very specific area of the market. If by some
magical
phenomenon we could change trade then the picture might be different e.g.
"x" ASIC design jobs might have been lost overseas but if "x" Project
Management jobs were created and displaced ASIC designers could all
be absorbed in those jobs then all might be good.

An example: In the state of Australia in which I live, a multinational
closed
down at the end of 2002 and a dozen ASIC designers lost their jobs.
(Development responsibility for the products those designers worked on is
being
transferred to India but I mention this as a sideline). There is only one
other
company left here that does ASIC design. They hired 3 ASIC designers in
2003.
According to the recruitment companies there are hundreds of applications
for every electronic hardware design position advertised. Since the ASIC
designers
don't have recent skills relevant to the rest of the industry here, they are
at the
bottom of the heap. Those that have been able to find alternate work have
ended up with very much lower salaries and job status.

Unemployment has dropped to record low levels here as well. The Australian
economy
is booming but this is of no consolation to the ASIC/FPGA designers here
that
have no jobs and no prospects in the next few years of working in this area.

"tbx135" <tbx135_at_msn.com> wrote in message
news:OhYJb.49508$tp2.4898_at_newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
Quote:
Exporting tech jobs to India?
Alan Reynolds

January 4, 2004

Those afflicted with an irrational phobia about international trade used
to
confine their raving to manufactured goods, not services. But the United
States is now said to be exporting high-paying service jobs to India,
particularly in information technology.

Worrying about U.S. companies importing services from India is a classic
example of the journalistic inclination to ignore the forest and focus on
a
few twigs. The United States is by far the world's biggest exporter of
services, just as the United States is by far the leading exporter of
goods.

The United States accounted for 18.1 percent of worldwide service exports
in
2001, according to the WTO, up from 17 percent in 1990. India accounts for
only 1.4 percent of world service exports. India is in 21st place among
world exporters of services and in 30th place for goods. India is running
a
trade deficit of about $8 billion, and that country's imports rose 20
percent in 2003. China ranks fifth among world exporters of goods
(although
China accounts for 11 percent of U.S. imported goods), and it has a small
and dwindling trade surplus. China's imports rose 40 percent in 2003. Hong
Kong is a significant exporter of services, but it has a trade deficit
with
the United States.

The United States had a $64.8 billion trade BEG ITAL) surplus in services
in
2002, despite economic stagnation in Europe and Japan. Services accounted
for 30 percent of all U.S. exports and 43 percent ($3.1 billion) of U.S.
exports to India.

Worrying about job changes among computer professionals is yet another
example of the journalistic inclination to totally ignore any facts about
the big picture and instead generalize from small and local anecdotes.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics categorizes these allegedly vanishing jobs
among "computer and mathematical science occupations" -- i.e., computer
programmers, software engineers, systems analysts, support specialists,
network administrators, etc. These jobs exploded with the tech boom,
rising
11.9 percent in 2000 alone, but such panicky hoarding of computer geeks
was
no more sustainable than 5,000 on NASDAQ. Even in 2002, however,
employment
in these computer-related occupations was nonetheless higher than in 1999,
and so were salaries.

In 1999, there were 2,620,080 jobs in these computer-related professions
at
an average wage of $26.41. In 2002, there were 2,772,620 such jobs at
$29.63
an hour ($61,630 a year). Figures on that specific job group are not
available for 2003, but professional business service payrolls were up 2.3
percent by November, when compared with the year 2000, and jobs in
information industries were up 4.9 percent. Jobs in the subgroup of
"computer systems design and related services" are down slightly from last
year but have risen steadily for the past three months.

The notion that service jobs are being lost to India is paradoxical
because
similar complaints about China or Japan invariably involved disparaging
U.S.
service jobs as "McJobs" -- inferior to working with a sewing machine or
wrench. In the case of India, however, even the most menial computer
service
chores -- such as tech support and handling health insurance claims -- are
now being glorified as "high-wage" jobs.

Past stories about "exporting jobs" also assumed those jobs had moved to
countries with trade surpluses, such as Japan and Germany. But India has a
sizable trade deficit, and it even had a deficit in services until 2002.
This is not to suggest, however, that previous stories about trade
surpluses
being a sign of economic strength made sense. On the contrary, from 1990
to
2001, employment grew by 1.2 percent a year in the United States, but by
only 0.3 percent in Japan and 0.1 percent in Germany.

Trade phobia has lost any sense of direction. The United States is now
said
to lose jobs to countries with trade deficits as well as to countries with
trade surpluses, and to lose jobs in services as well as manufacturing.
Some
even suggest the United States will lose most service jobs to India and
most
manufacturing jobs to China. But without jobs, how could Americans keep
buying all those imports?

A New York Times report claimed India is attracting a lot of direct
investment from multinational corporations. Yet Morgan Stanley reports:
"Private corporate investment (in India) is estimated to have declined to
4.7 percent of GDP in 2003 from 9.6 percent in 1996. ... In April to
September 2003, FDI investments have declined by 63 percent compared to
the
same period last year."

The United States has always imported and exported services as well as
goods. So what? Even if we ignore this country's huge and growing
dominance
of world service exports, it would still be delusional to speak of
importing
services as equivalent to exporting jobs. The notion that "exports create
jobs" (every commerce secretary's favorite slogan) is neither more nor
less
true than the idea that imports create jobs. Work is involved in all
creation and marketing of goods, services and financial assets. Work is
also
involved with the extra investment resulting from a net inflow of foreign
capital, otherwise known as a "current account deficit." Growth of
employment is related to growth of the economy, not to imports or exports
or
the gap between them.

If the United States was really losing more jobs than it was gaining, then
employment would be falling. But employment is rising. There were 138.6
million civilians with jobs in November, up from 136.5 million a year
earlier. The number of U.S. jobs doubled in fewer than 40 years. If the
rapidly expanding number of jobs were inferior to the ones that preceded
them, then incomes would be falling. But incomes, too, are rising. Real
hourly compensation kept rising even in the recent recession and is now up
more than 26 percent since 1980. Real disposable income (which excludes
stock market gains) rose at a brisk 3.9 percent annual rate cent from
April
to November.

The media blitz about imported goods or services resulting in the best
jobs
being relocated to some variable list of countries -- first Japan and
Germany, now India and China -- has never been anything more than
unadulterated hogwash.



2003 Creators Syndicate



tbx135
Guest

Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:31 pm   



In the US we saw a hiring "frenzy" for technical workers up until about
2001. It was not uncommon to see 20-30% salary adjustments job to job or
even year to year. ASIC designers were asking over $100K and in many cases
and getting it, plus sign-on bonus. Life was good.

Then the telecomm bubble popped but many people still used the "roaring
90's" as the standard for what was normal. Historically it wasn't. Tech
salaries in the US had then worked up to an all time high. That labor market
was largely driven by investment money pouring into the tech sector.

Outsourcing all kinds of technical work to Asia was done all through the
90's, the infrastructure was there already. Labor savings for US vs Asia was
over 50% in some cases. ASIC talent, being the most costly (here in the US),
got hit severely.

I think the story is right-on. Politicians are going to look at gross
numbers. They see increasing salaries and jobs. That doesn't mean evenly and
across the board though. Many would just say you have to be flexible until
you can find the job you want. I don't like doing crummy work but I would
have to live with facts. The facts are that it's an employers market and the
supply of engineers exceeds the demand. It's going to take time to correct
itself.

EdwardH
Guest

Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:37 am   



Employers always cite high salaries/costs (i.e. man-hour rates) as
justification for laying off or
outsourcing work. Who sets the standards as to what an ASIC/FPGA designer
is really worth. Currently it is market forces. Supply and demand. There
seems to be
others that aren't so subject to these forces. e.g my anecdotal evidence is
that
non-technical consultants still do well and what about the hugh (read
obscene) salaries
paid to many CEO's. Often I see articles here about CEO bonuses paid despite
the
fact that the company performed badly.

Our problem is that the relationship between our work/inventiveness and
company profits
is not easily measurable e.g. compared to say a salesman. When corporate
outcomes
are due to the sum of all employees, how can executives justify their
salaries. I have seen
companies succeed despite their bad management. Unfortunately the discussion
will come
back to market forces ....... What about outsourcing CEO functions to India?
Now
that would save some money! Sorry .... excuse my poor attempt at humour.

I have to admit a lot of ignorance and apathy when it comes to the market
and corporate ways but this whole discussion only has merit if we look at
ways to turn
this around. This is a problem amongst engineers where we don't look after
ourselves enough. Many industries are highly protected. e.g. in Australia
they regulate
the number of doctors by controlling the number that enter University
courses each year.
Not that I advocate this for our profession. Other industries are highly
unionised.

What can we do? Particularly since engineers in all countries want to work.
Since I don't live
in the US I don't want to see protectionism as a suggested solution. Are we
putting
enough pressure on organizations like the IEEE to look at the issue or lobby
politicians to ensure that they are aware of our problems.

"tbx135" <tbx135_at_msn.com> wrote in message
news:9dyMb.56074$V82.48313_at_newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
Quote:
In the US we saw a hiring "frenzy" for technical workers up until about
2001. It was not uncommon to see 20-30% salary adjustments job to job or
even year to year. ASIC designers were asking over $100K and in many cases
and getting it, plus sign-on bonus. Life was good.

Then the telecomm bubble popped but many people still used the "roaring
90's" as the standard for what was normal. Historically it wasn't. Tech
salaries in the US had then worked up to an all time high. That labor
market
was largely driven by investment money pouring into the tech sector.

Outsourcing all kinds of technical work to Asia was done all through the
90's, the infrastructure was there already. Labor savings for US vs Asia
was
over 50% in some cases. ASIC talent, being the most costly (here in the
US),
got hit severely.

I think the story is right-on. Politicians are going to look at gross
numbers. They see increasing salaries and jobs. That doesn't mean evenly
and
across the board though. Many would just say you have to be flexible until
you can find the job you want. I don't like doing crummy work but I would
have to live with facts. The facts are that it's an employers market and
the
supply of engineers exceeds the demand. It's going to take time to correct
itself.



Jerry
Guest

Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:07 am   



"Jerry" <nospam_at_nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:vucg41jtdc7040_at_corp.supernews.com...
Quote:
cut wages? then cut housing, food, insurance, automobile, taxes and
everything else my wages go to cover.

"tbx135" <tbx135_at_msn.com> wrote in message
news:WwjFb.7911$wn5.7443_at_newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
Offshoring is the market saying that labor is over-priced. Supply/demand
is
a natural law and while everyone can talk a good game at "protecting"
jobs,
the truth is if you can't compete, your business and it's "protected"
jobs
go away. Want to keep your job? Cut wages to compete.

Maybe the US Senate will help sti the flow of jobs overseas.


http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c
=StoryFT&cid=1073281284712&p=1012571727088

Abhijit
Guest

Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:21 am   



I deleted all of the messages from the thread.

I have been reading all the messages and I would like to add my 2
paisa (since I live in India) worth to this discussion.

I am an Engineer from one of the premier institutes of India and
worked for 4.5 yrs in the valley before returning to India in 5 years
back. At that time I saw a lot of concenrs that the local companies
were hiring "foreigners" and local people are losing jobs. The fact is
that USA doesn't produce so many engineers so they have to depend upon
some other country. You can not expect highschool dropouts to do the
job for which I was hired. It is a fact that even after 2 years of my
return my old company used to call me and request me to work for them
as a consultant (with the same hourly rate as anyone would get in the
first world!). I used to think that all first world people are good
and think logically, but some of the discussions here really make me
sad.

The world moves this way: If any third world country take over 'high
tech silicon valley work' from USA then it will be their
responsibility to create new higher tech work and contribute to the
world. This is how the world has worked.

If you don't like jobs being send over to other countries (very small
%age though) then you should first stop hiring foreign engineers for
whom you did not spend a single penny on education. Alternatively you
should take 100 poor people for every engineer you take from a third
world country, you can not just take the best people from the poor
countries and continue to be the best. Pretty soon the poor country
will not have any money to produce good engineers to serve you.
Everything can not go your way, there are laws of nature. I think in
long run it would be good if some jobs move to India, in that case you
don't have to import people from there and increase the load on
natural resources because of the lifestyle differences.

I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings here...

Jonathan Bromley
Guest

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:03 am   



"Abhijit" <chakrabarty_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f42ec3b1.0401290121.4d725835_at_posting.google.com...

Quote:
I have been reading all the messages and I would like to add my 2
paisa (since I live in India) worth to this discussion.
[...]


Quote:
The world moves this way: If any third world country take over 'high
tech silicon valley work' from USA then it will be their
responsibility to create new higher tech work and contribute to the
world. This is how the world has worked.

If you don't like jobs being send over to other countries (very small
%age though) then you should first stop hiring foreign engineers for
whom you did not spend a single penny on education. Alternatively you
should take 100 poor people for every engineer you take from a third
world country, you can not just take the best people from the poor
countries and continue to be the best. Pretty soon the poor country
will not have any money to produce good engineers to serve you.
Everything can not go your way, there are laws of nature.
[...]


Well said, Abhijit.

It's interesting that the people who whinge loudest about
leakage of jobs to the developing world, thanks to
free-market forces, seem mostly to be inhabitants of the
nation that has most vigorously embraced free-market
economics when it suited them. Those of us who feel
uncomfortable with the unfettered free market can sit
back smugly and say "I told you so", whilst goggling
open-mouthed at the protectionism that is sometimes
applied by supposedly free-market economies throughout
the developed world.

The developing world can offer us (and by "us" here I mean
the whole world's economy, not just the West) a well-trained,
highly motivated workforce that can mobilise very large
numbers of employees at comparatively low cost. Those costs
will, of course, increase as nations such as India become
more prosperous overall, but that will take some considerable
time. If the economies of the West wish to compete
effectively without significantly impacting Western lifestyle,
they must find ways of working that *cannot* be made better
or cheaper by the application of lots of skilled, cheap people.

That last observation has dramatic conclusions for the
electronics design community. It means that we cannot and
must not go on using low-level design techniques; 30 Verilog
RTL-cutters in the US are unlikely to be competitive with 100
Verilog RTL-cutters in Bangalore at the same price. Instead
we must find ways to use the West's traditional skills,
including aggressive and creative application of the latest
academic developments to industrial problems, to make small
numbers of people much more productive. For people in our
field, that means embracing the highest-level design and
validation techniques at our disposal, instead of remaining
dedicated to the nuts/bolts/wires/registers vision of chip
design that's left over from fifteen years ago.

Quote:
I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings here...

Perceptive *and* courteous. It's a powerful combination.
Thanks for your insights.
--

Jonathan Bromley, Consultant

DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how
VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Verification * Project Services

Doulos Ltd. Church Hatch, 22 Market Place, Ringwood, Hampshire, BH24 1AW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1425 471223 mail: jonathan.bromley_at_doulos.com
Fax: +44 (0)1425 471573 Web: http://www.doulos.com

The contents of this message may contain personal views which
are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.

fabbl
Guest

Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:18 pm   



I agree. Kids in the US are interested in being MBA's , lawyers and pop
stars. There is definitely no glamour being an engineer. Nor is it going to
make you rich.

Many masters and Ph.d. programs are filled with asian students. Your lucky
to see one or two Americans in any advanced technology degree programs. The
whole overseas/foreign out-source phenomena is due in large part to talent
shortages. I say the market will correct itself in time, but the India as a
major source of technical talent is here to stay.

Marco Fioretti
Guest

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:35 pm   



Abhijit wrote:
Quote:

I have been reading all the messages and I would like to add my 2
paisa (since I live in India) worth to this discussion.


I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings here...

I'm almost sure you didn't hurt the feelings of anybody with
common sense and the courage to be objective.
Very good summary of the problem and its causes. Well said.

Ciao,
Marco

Prasanna
Guest

Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:56 pm   



"fabbl" <yttt_at_nukes.com> wrote in message news:<vxgSb.1995$9f6.1596_at_newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>...
Quote:
I agree. Kids in the US are interested in being MBA's , lawyers and pop
stars. There is definitely no glamour being an engineer. Nor is it going to
make you rich.

Many masters and Ph.d. programs are filled with asian students. Your lucky
to see one or two Americans in any advanced technology degree programs. The
whole overseas/foreign out-source phenomena is due in large part to talent
shortages. I say the market will correct itself in time, but the India as a
major source of technical talent is here to stay.

Mixed thoughts here...

Its not true that asians always the best. They are cheap labour and
they can settle down for anything better than their current living
standard. If US faces the nightmare of jobs moving offshore, for
countries like India where layoff was unheard of in history is now a
reality. Many asians are used to exploitation but not used to be
insecure. In US, we have unemployment benefit, social security etc.
and what can we expect from third world countries when it comes to
laws against capitalist giant companies. Hitech engineers become "Use
and throw" commodity.

For example, Companies like Wipro in India still do not share its
profits with employees and their major business is "bodyshopping". Its
chairman holds 85% stocks and yet they are listed on NASDAQ. It is
true this company does layoff when company does not do good to
preserve its profits.

On the other hand, think of H1 workers at US... When US throws them
out after 6 years what do you expect them to do ? Think of people who
never get their green cards and slave themselves for the "carrot".

How about for a change, US workers apply for a green card for
China/India and work for their US companies there and compete with
local talents... Does not sound lucrative ? Eh... We need some
introspection here when we say "All men are equal"...

Sajan
Guest

Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:39 am   



All this cringe and moan about job losses.
How narrower can a human mind get.
When are we going to understand that whoever gets the job
ahead of you perhaps deserves it more , may be cause hes more skilled,
or may be cause hes cheaper, but for sure he deserves the job
much more than you.
The narrower the mind gets. Will u guys come out in the open and
say jobs only for those born on and brought up in silicon valley ,
the other US people are outsiders. No jobs to people from Texas and Virginia,
cause we dont have enough jobs in California?????
So why this cringe and moan when the job goes to an Indian,
hes also a fellow human being mate, just like any fellow american.



Marco Fioretti <Marco.Fioretti_at_ericsson.com> wrote in message news:<401A5DA1.3B31E21C_at_ericsson.com>...
Quote:
Abhijit wrote:

I have been reading all the messages and I would like to add my 2
paisa (since I live in India) worth to this discussion.


I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings here...

I'm almost sure you didn't hurt the feelings of anybody with
common sense and the courage to be objective.
Very good summary of the problem and its causes. Well said.

Ciao,
Marco


Tom Joad
Guest

Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:50 am   



"Jonathan Bromley" <jonathan.bromley_at_doulos.com> wrote in message news:<bvals6$195$1$8302bc10_at_news.demon.co.uk>...
Quote:
"Abhijit" <chakrabarty_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f42ec3b1.0401290121.4d725835_at_posting.google.com...

I have been reading all the messages and I would like to add my 2
paisa (since I live in India) worth to this discussion.
[...]

The world moves this way: If any third world country take over 'high
tech silicon valley work' from USA then it will be their
responsibility to create new higher tech work and contribute to the
world. This is how the world has worked.

If you don't like jobs being send over to other countries (very small
%age though) then you should first stop hiring foreign engineers for
whom you did not spend a single penny on education. Alternatively you
should take 100 poor people for every engineer you take from a third
world country, you can not just take the best people from the poor
countries and continue to be the best. Pretty soon the poor country
will not have any money to produce good engineers to serve you.
Everything can not go your way, there are laws of nature.
[...]

Well said, Abhijit.

It's interesting that the people who whinge loudest about
leakage of jobs to the developing world, thanks to
free-market forces, seem mostly to be inhabitants of the
nation that has most vigorously embraced free-market
economics when it suited them. Those of us who feel
uncomfortable with the unfettered free market can sit
back smugly and say "I told you so", whilst goggling
open-mouthed at the protectionism that is sometimes
applied by supposedly free-market economies throughout
the developed world.

The developing world can offer us (and by "us" here I mean
the whole world's economy, not just the West) a well-trained,
highly motivated workforce that can mobilise very large
numbers of employees at comparatively low cost. Those costs
will, of course, increase as nations such as India become
more prosperous overall, but that will take some considerable
time. If the economies of the West wish to compete
effectively without significantly impacting Western lifestyle,
they must find ways of working that *cannot* be made better
or cheaper by the application of lots of skilled, cheap people.

Who says that only the West is capable of working smarter and being
creative?

Quote:

That last observation has dramatic conclusions for the
electronics design community. It means that we cannot and
must not go on using low-level design techniques; 30 Verilog
RTL-cutters in the US are unlikely to be competitive with 100
Verilog RTL-cutters in Bangalore at the same price. Instead
we must find ways to use the West's traditional skills,
including aggressive and creative application of the latest
academic developments to industrial problems, to make small
numbers of people much more productive. For people in our
field, that means embracing the highest-level design and
validation techniques at our disposal, instead of remaining
dedicated to the nuts/bolts/wires/registers vision of chip
design that's left over from fifteen years ago.

But the implication of your statment is that only Westerners can be
creative and only Westerners will try new things.

At this point we're already seeing a contraction in the number of jobs
available for engineers in the US. You can only develop these new,
higher powered, more creative skills if you are employed in the field.
If you have had to move on to working at Barnes&Noble or the like
just to eat, you are not likely to have the time or energy left over
to develop these great new creative skills. I know several people who
have now been out of engineering work for six months to two years.
How employable is a chip designer after not working for a year or two?

I can anticipate your next suggestion: "Why don't you start your own
companies?" Well, if I could afford to go six months to a year or
longer without an income, that would be a great idea, but
realistically when you start a company it takes about that long to
generate any income and that's assuming that the company succeeds. In
the meantime people have to pay their mortgages and eat.

Perhaps if the US government weren't spending $87Billion to rebuild
Iraq (plus whatever it cost to destroy Iraq), it could afford to give
business development grants and loans to displaced workers so that we
could effectively harness that creativity, but that doesn't appear to
be in the cards. See, I am trying to think of constructive solutions,
not just 'complaining and whining'.

I recently heard a venture capitalist give a talk and one thing he
said was that unless a startup explicity says in their business plan
that engineering will be outsourced outside of the US, they will not
get VC funding anymore. Well, how about that...

Quote:

I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings here...

Perceptive *and* courteous. It's a powerful combination.
Thanks for your insights.

Indeed. But certainly you can excuse a lot of unemployed US engineers
for being angry about all of this, can't you? On one hand it's great
that people are getting jobs in India, but on the other hand it sucks
for a lot of Americans are losing theirs and it will only serve to
further erode the middle-class in the US. At this point, I'm
beginning to become resigned to this outcome: we just won't be having
as many good-paying, engineering (and other white collar ) jobs in the
US. We need to figure out how to live on less and how to make the
transition to a lower standard of living. This might be something
that takes 20 years to correct so in the meantime we better get used
to getting by on a lot less.

The question now is, what can governments in the West do to soften the
effects of such a large exodus of good paying jobs? The problem is
that in the US at least, this issue isn't even on the politician's
radar screen yet, and I
suspect that by the time it is it could be too late for a lot of
people.

Tom Joad

> --

Tom Joad
Guest

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:13 am   



"fabbl" <yttt_at_nukes.com> wrote in message news:<vxgSb.1995$9f6.1596_at_newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>...
Quote:
I agree. Kids in the US are interested in being MBA's , lawyers and pop
stars.

At this point if you met an American highschool student that might be
inclined toward going into engineering, would you recommend it to
them? I certainly wouldn't. I would recommend that they get into a
field that cannot be outsourced if they want stability. If they don't
care about stability, they may was well get an art degree as get an
engineering degree.

Quote:
There is definitely no glamour being an engineer. Nor is it going to
make you rich.

Perhaps not, but it used to provide a very solid living. And some of
it was very interesting, creative and intellectually stimulating work.

Quote:

Many masters and Ph.d. programs are filled with asian students. Your lucky
to see one or two Americans in any advanced technology degree programs.

I've been one of those. Was it worthwhile getting a Masters degree?
At this point it seems like it was a huge waste of time and $$$. Even
prior to the downturn it seemed like a waste primarily because
academia was so far behind industry. I came to the conclusion that in
this field you learn a lot more by working in it than by getting an
advanced degree. Most of the professors had no idea what was going on
in industry. They tended to have quaint notions about what industry
must need. I was very disappointed with the whole graduate degree
thing; I thought it was supposed to be about pushing the envelope and
researching new ideas, but it wasn't that way at all. I really can't
see why someone with a new Masters degree would be more desirable to a
company than an engineer with a Bachelors degree who had been working
in the field for a long time, and yet you would see it all the time
back when jobs were posted "Masters degree required". So I decided to
get one just to jump through the hoops. But that's a different
topic...

Quote:
The
whole overseas/foreign out-source phenomena is due in large part to talent
shortages. I say the market will correct itself in time, but the India as a
major source of technical talent is here to stay.

Granted, three or four years ago during the boom there was a talent
shortage in the US and we did need to import workers. Now there is a
talent surplus. If things get better again, how exactly are we
supposed to address the so-called talent shortage? Are we supposed to
go into the highschools and encourage more students to become
engineers when they see that lots of engineers were recently
unemployed? It's not going to give them a lot of confidence that
they'll find work after they graduate.

Tom Joad

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