Hack an Ancient MSI Music Chip?

I have this pc board out of a keyboard made by Think! Software. I
dont' have any cables or information on it. I want to use the MIDI
keyboard it attaches to, so need to hook up power to the pc board.
Couldn't find pinouts anywhere for the main chip. You can see it
here:

http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_pcbrd_33p.jpg

On Feb 7, 2:04 pm, Zephinilium <platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have this pc board out of a keyboard made by Think! Software. I
dont' have any cables or information on it. I want to use the MIDI
keyboard it attaches to, so need to hook up power to the pc board.
Couldn't find pinouts anywhere for the main chip. You can see it
here:

http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_pcbrd_33p.jpg

  If all you want to do is power it up, find the power jack (J1, lower
left?) and use the polarized caps (C1, C17) to trace back and figure
out which pin is positive and which is ground. Voltage will be maybe
70% of the cap rated voltage. You likely have a wallwart in your
junkbox that will work.

  Shot-in-the-dark; Kennerly-Spratling (read the board) currently does
plastic injection molding but apparently they used to make boards. Ask
them if they archive stuff from back then!

  Mark L. Fergerson

I have this pc board out of a keyboard made by Think! Software. I
dont' have any cables or information on it. I want to use the MIDI
keyboard it attaches to, so need to hook up power to the pc board.
Couldn't find pinouts anywhere for the main chip. You can see it
here:

http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_pcbrd_33p.jpg

On Feb 7, 5:34 pm, Peter Bennett <pete...@somewhere.invalid> wrote:





On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:04:35 -0800 (PST), Zephinilium

platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have this pc board out of a keyboard made by Think! Software. I
dont' have any cables or information on it. I want to use the MIDI
keyboard it attaches to, so need to hook up power to the pc board.
Couldn't find pinouts anywhere for the main chip. You can see it
here:

http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_pcbrd_33p.jpg

That is an Intel 80C51 microcontroller.  a quick Google for "80C51
datasheet" finds one from Philips, that indicates Vcc (+5V) is on pin
40, and ground is on pin 20.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI  
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca  
GPS and NMEA info:http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron:http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Very good. That should help greatly.

BTW, the "J1" connector on the left in the photo is for a foot
switch,
not a power connector. I think I read somewhere that it gets power
from the computer connection (P2).

Here are the ports:http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_ports_33p.jpg
-ECP- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:04:35 -0800 (PST), Zephinilium

platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have this pc board out of a keyboard made by Think! Software. I
dont' have any cables or information on it. I want to use the MIDI
keyboard it attaches to, so need to hook up power to the pc board.
Couldn't find pinouts anywhere for the main chip. You can see it
here:

http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_pcbrd_33p.jpg

That is an Intel 80C51 microcontroller.  a quick Google for "80C51
datasheet" finds one from Philips, that indicates Vcc (+5V) is on pin
40, and ground is on pin 20.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI  
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca  
GPS and NMEA info:http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron:http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

On Feb 7, 9:07 pm, Zephinilium <platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:





On Feb 7, 5:34 pm, Peter Bennett <pete...@somewhere.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:04:35 -0800 (PST), Zephinilium

platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have this pc board out of a keyboard made by Think! Software. I
dont' have any cables or information on it. I want to use the MIDI
keyboard it attaches to, so need to hook up power to the pc board.
Couldn't find pinouts anywhere for the main chip. You can see it
here:

http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_pcbrd_33p.jpg

That is an Intel 80C51 microcontroller.  a quick Google for "80C51
datasheet" finds one from Philips, that indicates Vcc (+5V) is on pin
40, and ground is on pin 20.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI  
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca  
GPS and NMEA info:http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron:http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Very good. That should help greatly.

BTW, the "J1" connector on the left in the photo is for a foot
switch,
not a power connector. I think I read somewhere that it gets power
from the computer connection (P2).

Here are the ports:http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_ports_33p.jpg
-ECP- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As Peter mentioned, it is an 8051.
Circa 1995, it almost certainly will be the 5-volt variety.
+ 5Vdc on Pin 40, ground on pin-20.
There are a great many 8051 varieties, but all the 40-pin DIP packages
pretty much pin out the same.
I've never seen one that wasn't, and I recognize the crystal & caps on
pins 18 & 19, right where you would expect them.

The MIDI ports (if it connects to a PC), will have the standard game
port pin assignments.
Google the pinout for a joystick / game controller on any IBM-PC clone
or multi-I/O card.
That should also give you a good confirmation that you have the right
5-volt bus, and grounds identified.
-mpm

On Feb 7, 6:22 pm, mpm <mpmill...@aol.com> wrote:





On Feb 7, 9:07 pm, Zephinilium <platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Feb 7, 5:34 pm, Peter Bennett <pete...@somewhere.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:04:35 -0800 (PST), Zephinilium

platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have this pc board out of a keyboard made by Think! Software. I
dont' have any cables or information on it. I want to use the MIDI
keyboard it attaches to, so need to hook up power to the pc board.
Couldn't find pinouts anywhere for the main chip. You can see it
here:

http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_pcbrd_33p.jpg

That is an Intel 80C51 microcontroller.  a quick Google for "80C51
datasheet" finds one from Philips, that indicates Vcc (+5V) is on pin
40, and ground is on pin 20.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI  
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca  
GPS and NMEA info:http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron:http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Very good. That should help greatly.

BTW, the "J1" connector on the left in the photo is for a foot
switch,
not a power connector. I think I read somewhere that it gets power
from the computer connection (P2).

Here are the ports:http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_ports_33p.jpg
-ECP- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As Peter mentioned, it is an 8051.
Circa 1995, it almost certainly will be the 5-volt variety.
+ 5Vdc on Pin 40, ground on pin-20.
There are a great many 8051 varieties, but all the 40-pin DIP packages
pretty much pin out the same.
I've never seen one that wasn't, and I recognize the crystal & caps on
pins 18 & 19, right where you would expect them.

The MIDI ports (if it connects to a PC), will have the standard game
port pin assignments.
Google the pinout for a joystick / game controller on any IBM-PC clone
or multi-I/O card.
That should also give you a good confirmation that you have the right
5-volt bus, and grounds identified.
-mpm

Yup, here it is:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_port
And here (more MIDI emphasis):http://pinouts.ru/Inputs/GameportPCMidi_pinout.shtml

My goal is to use the MIDI port and use a MIDI/USB adapter I have and
connect to a Mac via the USB port.
So looks like I'll be trying to simply connect +5 volts and GND to Pin
1 & Pin 8 & 9 on the DA-15 and see what happens when I hook up the
MIDI cable.
Hopefully the chip is pre-programmed to send MIDI and doesn't require
connection to a computer.

You want to use this to make a USB to MIDI adapter?

eBay USB MIDI adapter

Cable with a tiny box/lump in the middle.
Some are as low as $ 2 with $ 4 shipping!
I see auctions for 2.75 with free shipping.

It looks like somebody imported a lot of these
and got stuck with a glut of them.

Notice that it works with name brand MIDI software.

USB to MIDI keyboard Interface Converter Cable

Specification:

Simply connect the USB cable into your computer,and your MIDI
interface connection is completed. It is easy to turn your PC into a
music studio. Starting by connecting a music keyboard to your computer
with the supplied USB MIDI cable. HOT- seappable,you can connect and
disconnect whenever you want,even while the computer is turned on.
Draws its power from the computer's USB port,no AC adaptor needed.
Supports Windows XP,Vista and Mac OS X operating systems.

Latest Version with a built-in driver.
USB powered and Class Compliant for true plug & play.Just connect to a
computer USB socket for automatic installation of driver.
1 in + 1 out MIDI interface.
16 MIDI input channels & 16 MIDI output channels.
LED's indicate power in,MIDI in signal and MIDI out signal.
Supports Windows XP/Vista and Mac OS X operating systems.
Cable length: 2m.

Instructions for use:
Please follow these steps
Connect the cable marked 'IN' to the MIDI 'OUT' socket of a MIDI
keyboard (or MIDI device).
Connect the cable marked 'OUT' to the MIDI 'IN' socket of a MIDI
keyboard (or MIDI device).
Plug the USB cable into any free USB socket on your computer,the red
LED will light to show power on.
Open you music software program,e.g. Cubase,Sonar,MIDI connections,
etc.
Set the music in programs MIDI in and MIDI out devices to 'USB Audio
Device'.
Your USB to MIDI interface is now ready for use.
To save potential problems,it is recommended that this interface is
always connected to the same USB as it was originally installed on to
prevent multiple installations of the driver

On Feb 8, 2:47 am, Greegor <greego...@gmail.com> wrote:





You want to use this to make a USB to MIDI adapter?

eBay USB MIDI adapter

Cable with a tiny box/lump in the middle.
Some are as low as $ 2 with $ 4 shipping!
I see auctions for 2.75 with free shipping.

It looks like somebody imported a lot of these
and got stuck with a glut of them.

Notice that it works with name brand MIDI software.

USB to MIDI keyboard Interface Converter Cable

Specification:

Simply connect the USB cable into your computer,and your MIDI
interface connection is completed. It is easy to turn your PC into a
music studio. Starting by connecting a music keyboard to your computer
with the supplied USB MIDI cable. HOT- seappable,you can connect and
disconnect whenever you want,even while the computer is turned on.
Draws its power from the computer's USB port,no AC adaptor needed.
Supports Windows XP,Vista and Mac OS X operating systems.

Latest Version with a built-in driver.
USB powered and Class Compliant for true plug & play.Just connect to a
computer USB socket for automatic installation of driver.
1 in + 1 out MIDI interface.
16 MIDI input channels & 16 MIDI output channels.
LED's indicate power in,MIDI in signal and MIDI out signal.
Supports Windows XP/Vista and Mac OS X operating systems.
Cable length: 2m.

Instructions for use:
Please follow these steps
Connect the cable marked 'IN' to the MIDI 'OUT' socket of a MIDI
keyboard (or MIDI device).
Connect the cable marked 'OUT' to the MIDI 'IN' socket of a MIDI
keyboard (or MIDI device).
Plug the USB cable into any free USB socket on your computer,the red
LED will light to show power on.
Open you music software program,e.g. Cubase,Sonar,MIDI connections,
etc.
Set the music in programs MIDI in and MIDI out devices to 'USB Audio
Device'.
Your USB to MIDI interface is now ready for use.
To save potential problems,it is recommended that this interface is
always connected to the same USB as it was originally installed on to
prevent multiple installations of the driver

No – read my post carefully. I already have a USB adapter. I want to
get this pc board (pictured) that hooks into a keyboard it's
associated with working (it's missing the PC interface that supplies
it power), and plug in my USB-MIDI adapter to it.

Anyway, to continue the story, I hooked up a power supply (to ground
on the connector shield pin and pin , hooked up the keyboard and the
USB adapter to it and the computer, and no go: no MIDI signal. Didn't
work. Dont' know if it's related to the fact that I accidently broke
surface-mount resister R2. What is the value of R2? It says "472" on
it. Is that just ohms, or K ohms, or what?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Feb 10, 7:05 pm, Zephinilium <platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:





On Feb 8, 2:47 am, Greegor <greego...@gmail.com> wrote:

You want to use this to make a USB to MIDI adapter?

eBay USB MIDI adapter

Cable with a tiny box/lump in the middle.
Some are as low as $ 2 with $ 4 shipping!
I see auctions for 2.75 with free shipping.

It looks like somebody imported a lot of these
and got stuck with a glut of them.

Notice that it works with name brand MIDI software.

USB to MIDI keyboard Interface Converter Cable

Specification:

Simply connect the USB cable into your computer,and your MIDI
interface connection is completed. It is easy to turn your PC into a
music studio. Starting by connecting a music keyboard to your computer
with the supplied USB MIDI cable. HOT- seappable,you can connect and
disconnect whenever you want,even while the computer is turned on.
Draws its power from the computer's USB port,no AC adaptor needed.
Supports Windows XP,Vista and Mac OS X operating systems.

Latest Version with a built-in driver.
USB powered and Class Compliant for true plug & play.Just connect to a
computer USB socket for automatic installation of driver.
1 in + 1 out MIDI interface.
16 MIDI input channels & 16 MIDI output channels.
LED's indicate power in,MIDI in signal and MIDI out signal.
Supports Windows XP/Vista and Mac OS X operating systems.
Cable length: 2m.

Instructions for use:
Please follow these steps
Connect the cable marked 'IN' to the MIDI 'OUT' socket of a MIDI
keyboard (or MIDI device).
Connect the cable marked 'OUT' to the MIDI 'IN' socket of a MIDI
keyboard (or MIDI device).
Plug the USB cable into any free USB socket on your computer,the red
LED will light to show power on.
Open you music software program,e.g. Cubase,Sonar,MIDI connections,
etc.
Set the music in programs MIDI in and MIDI out devices to 'USB Audio
Device'.
Your USB to MIDI interface is now ready for use.
To save potential problems,it is recommended that this interface is
always connected to the same USB as it was originally installed on to
prevent multiple installations of the driver

No – read my post carefully. I already have a USB adapter. I want to
get this pc board (pictured) that hooks into a keyboard it's
associated with working (it's missing the PC interface that supplies
it power), and plug in my USB-MIDI adapter to it.

Anyway, to continue the story, I hooked up a power supply (to ground
on the connector shield pin and pin , hooked up the keyboard and the
USB adapter to it and the computer, and no go: no MIDI signal. Didn't
work. Dont' know if it's related to the fact that I accidently broke
surface-mount resister R2. What is the value of R2? It says "472" on
it. Is that just ohms, or K ohms, or what?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

472 on a surface mount would mean 4.7k-ohm, and that's a very common
value in a 5-volt system for a pull-up resistor.

Check the obvious stuff first.

Are all the voltages right on the 8051?
40 and 31 should be high. 20 low. 9 low after initial reset.
The rest could be anywhere.

Is the chip (8051) coming out of reset?
Pin-9 is the Reset line. A high on this pin for 2 clock cycles will
reset the chip.

Is the crystal oscillator running?
Crystals can fracture if dropped, mistreated, etc...
The 8051 has a pretty hefty osc. circuit. You can probe it with a
scope or logic tracer without killing it.
You're not as worried about amplitude; only that's it's running.

Are you getting any signal on the ALE (Address Latch Enable) pin 30?

Are you getting any pins toggeling on the output ports?

The board may need an external MIDI clock input before it will appear
to be doing much of anything (?)
So, if everything else above looks OK, start checking out your MIDI IN
setup.

From the photo, it doesn't appear that any traces are going to Port-0
(pins 32 through 39)
This pins double as the low-order address and data pins in the even
the 8051 wanted to use off-chip program memory (say from an EPROM -
Remember those?)

If they're not used, it means the program resides inside the 8051,
which is very common, and simplifies your troubleshooting
considerably.

Can you post the back side (solder side) of this board?

-mpm

On Feb 7, 5:34 pm, Peter Bennett <pete...@somewhere.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:04:35 -0800 (PST), Zephinilium

platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have this pc board out of a keyboard made by Think! Software. I
dont' have any cables or information on it. I want to use the MIDI
keyboard it attaches to, so need to hook up power to the pc board.
Couldn't find pinouts anywhere for the main chip. You can see it
here:

http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_pcbrd_33p.jpg

That is an Intel 80C51 microcontroller.  a quick Google for "80C51
datasheet" finds one from Philips, that indicates Vcc (+5V) is on pin
40, and ground is on pin 20.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI  
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca  
GPS and NMEA info:http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron:http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Very good. That should help greatly.

BTW, the "J1" connector on the left in the photo is for a foot
switch,
not a power connector. I think I read somewhere that it gets power
from the computer connection (P2).

Here are the ports:
http://www.macdood.com/electronics/keyboard_ports_33p.jpg
-ECP

On Feb 11, 8:30 pm, mpm <mpmill...@aol.com> wrote:





On Feb 10, 7:05 pm, Zephinilium <platt.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Feb 8, 2:47 am, Greegor <greego...@gmail.com> wrote:

You want to use this to make a USB to MIDI adapter?

eBay USB MIDI adapter

Cable with a tiny box/lump in the middle.
Some are as low as $ 2 with $ 4 shipping!
I see auctions for 2.75 with free shipping.

It looks like somebody imported a lot of these
and got stuck with a glut of them.

Notice that it works with name brand MIDI software.

USB to MIDI keyboard Interface Converter Cable

Specification:

Simply connect the USB cable into your computer,and your MIDI
interface connection is completed. It is easy to turn your PC into a
music studio. Starting by connecting a music keyboard to your computer
with the supplied USB MIDI cable. HOT- seappable,you can connect and
disconnect whenever you want,even while the computer is turned on.
Draws its power from the computer's USB port,no AC adaptor needed.
Supports Windows XP,Vista and Mac OS X operating systems.

Latest Version with a built-in driver.
USB powered and Class Compliant for true plug & play.Just connect to a
computer USB socket for automatic installation of driver.
1 in + 1 out MIDI interface.
16 MIDI input channels & 16 MIDI output channels.
LED's indicate power in,MIDI in signal and MIDI out signal.
Supports Windows XP/Vista and Mac OS X operating systems.
Cable length: 2m.

Instructions for use:
Please follow these steps
Connect the cable marked 'IN' to the MIDI 'OUT' socket of a MIDI
keyboard (or MIDI device).
Connect the cable marked 'OUT' to the MIDI 'IN' socket of a MIDI
keyboard (or MIDI device).
Plug the USB cable into any free USB socket on your computer,the red
LED will light to show power on.
Open you music software program,e.g. Cubase,Sonar,MIDI connections,
etc.
Set the music in programs MIDI in and MIDI out devices to 'USB Audio
Device'.
Your USB to MIDI interface is now ready for use.
To save potential problems,it is recommended that this interface is
always connected to the same USB as it was originally installed on to
prevent multiple installations of the driver

No – read my post carefully. I already have a USB adapter. I want to
get this pc board (pictured) that hooks into a keyboard it's
associated with working (it's missing the PC interface that supplies
it power), and plug in my USB-MIDI adapter to it.

So you're saying that the keyboard itself is not MIDI???
So you just want to power this board to UART the
serial keyboard (2nd DIN from firewall?) and pass
it to the MIDI ports?

Aren't the MIDI ports on a card like this geared
to pass to the PC bus?

At the top edge of this picture (cut off)
there is no PC edge connector?

The two ribbon connectors fed to the
other card you say powered it?

And from there everything went to
and from the PC bus?

Technically those two ribbons could
be two more MIDI ports, if there is a
PC bus edge connector clipped off from
the photo.

Are you trying to replace the missing card
and tie this into a PC bus?

The code on the 8051 is probably strictly
passing to/from the bus.  Bridging from the
keyboad to the MIDI ports would have been
done IN the PC, not within the 8051 code.

If you eBayed this make and model of
keyboard and card how much do they sell for?
If you bought another one it would have the
second card which plugged into an 8 bit XT ISA slot, right?
Because of that it would probably be dirt cheap, right?

How much do old MIDI keyboards sell for?

What make and model IS this keyboard?





Anyway, to continue the story, I hooked up a power supply (to ground
on the connector shield pin and pin , hooked up the keyboard and the
USB adapter to it and the computer, and no go: no MIDI signal. Didn't
work. Dont' know if it's related to the fact that I accidently broke
surface-mount resister R2. What is the value of R2? It says "472" on
it. Is that just ohms, or K ohms, or what?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

472 on a surface mount would mean 4.7k-ohm, and that's a very common
value in a 5-volt system for a pull-up resistor.

Check the obvious stuff first.

Are all the voltages right on the 8051?
40 and 31 should be high.  20 low.  9 low after initial reset.
The rest could be anywhere.

Is the chip (8051) coming out of reset?
Pin-9 is the Reset line.  A high on this pin for 2 clock cycles will
reset the chip.

Is the crystal oscillator running?
Crystals can fracture if dropped, mistreated, etc...
The 8051 has a pretty hefty osc. circuit.  You can probe it with a
scope or logic tracer without killing it.
You're not as worried about amplitude; only that's it's running.

Are you getting any signal on the ALE (Address Latch Enable) pin 30?

Are you getting any pins toggeling on the output ports?

The board may need an external MIDI clock input before it will appear
to be doing much of anything (?)
So, if everything else above looks OK, start checking out your MIDI IN
setup.

From the photo, it doesn't appear that any traces are going to Port-0
(pins 32 through 39)
This pins double as the low-order address and data pins in the even
the 8051 wanted to use off-chip program memory (say from an EPROM -
Remember those?)

I thought that at least at one point an 8048
with EPROM could be replaced by an 8051
with the code masked, but it took production
quantity to make masking worth doing.

I discovered a Multitech modem way back that
used an 8048 and EPROM so that those
few people who paid for real estate MLS
would have their ID and password coded
into the EPROM and they thought that
they had high security.  Except that all a
service thief would have to do is send an
"enquire" code ASCII 05 and the box would
answer with the ID and password.

This enquire and answer functionality was
commonly used on Teletypes with a
paper tape unit to start the tape reader.

Early PC ""modem software"" like
the shareware Qmodem emulated the same
function all in software on the PC/XT/AT.

Not only was this really lousy ""security""
but the use of the 8048 and EPROM
rather than masked 8051 meant that the
modem had a notorious problem with
overheating.

I think their bottleneck was that if you
got 1000 8051's masked they would all
be identical and could not have individual
username/passwords in them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8048

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8051

If they're not used, it means the program resides inside the 8051,
which is very common, and simplifies your troubleshooting
considerably.

That's the masked one isn't it?
In the original Intel parts at least?

It's from 30 years ago for me.



Can you post the back side (solder side) of this board?

-mpm- Hide quoted text -

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- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

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