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Tom Gardner
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:45 am   



On 24/10/16 19:02, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG, BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps, arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in "free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would only use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch. But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used to how it would
work with filters and such for my regular email.


Exactly the same way, with either IMAP (for gmail) or POP (for
everything else) access.

Caveat: I haven't used TBird recently, but I use Seamonkey,
which is effectively the same thing. Certainly transferring
from one to the other was trivial: just use the same mbox
file (or a copy if you are feeling slightly pessimistic)


Quote:
Eudora is a great program, but
some day I won't be able to use it anymore.


ISTR Eudora kept attachments separate from the email,
with all attachments in the same directory. If two
attachments had the same name, you lost the first,
doh!

But that was from 15 years ago.

rickman
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:55 am   



On 10/24/2016 2:45 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Quote:
On 24/10/16 19:02, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG, BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps, arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in
"free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would only use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch. But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used to how
it would
work with filters and such for my regular email.

Exactly the same way, with either IMAP (for gmail) or POP (for
everything else) access.


Whatever that means. I'm talking about the user interface. I expect
the internals to work the same.

At one point there was an effort to morph T-bird into a Eudora work
alike, Penelope. I think it was never completed. Probably found there
was little benefit compared to the huge amount of work involved.


Quote:
Caveat: I haven't used TBird recently, but I use Seamonkey,
which is effectively the same thing. Certainly transferring
from one to the other was trivial: just use the same mbox
file (or a copy if you are feeling slightly pessimistic)


Eudora is a great program, but
some day I won't be able to use it anymore.

ISTR Eudora kept attachments separate from the email,
with all attachments in the same directory. If two
attachments had the same name, you lost the first,
doh!


No, duplicate file names happen all the time. They add a digit to the
subsequent attachment file name and note that in the email.

The problem I have is trying to cull the directory. If I move useful
files elsewhere the email points to a null file. If I leave them in
place the numbers get huge over years! It is nearly impossible to
delete all the crap. Bazillions of tiny files are used in graphic HTML
emails.


Quote:
But that was from 15 years ago.


--

Rick C

Tom Gardner
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:26 am   



On 24/10/16 19:55, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 10/24/2016 2:45 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:02, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG, BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps, arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in
"free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would only use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch. But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used to how
it would
work with filters and such for my regular email.

Exactly the same way, with either IMAP (for gmail) or POP (for
everything else) access.

Whatever that means. I'm talking about the user interface. I expect the
internals to work the same.


So am I, and I don't care, respectively.

IMAP keeps a copy of the emails on my machine (in case
google disappears), and leaves the original on the google
server. Occasionally I the gmail web interface when doing
more complex searches.

POP3 copies the files to my machines and deletes them
on the server.


Quote:
At one point there was an effort to morph T-bird into a Eudora work alike,
Penelope. I think it was never completed. Probably found there was little
benefit compared to the huge amount of work involved.


Caveat: I haven't used TBird recently, but I use Seamonkey,
which is effectively the same thing. Certainly transferring
from one to the other was trivial: just use the same mbox
file (or a copy if you are feeling slightly pessimistic)


Eudora is a great program, but
some day I won't be able to use it anymore.

ISTR Eudora kept attachments separate from the email,
with all attachments in the same directory. If two
attachments had the same name, you lost the first,
doh!

No, duplicate file names happen all the time. They add a digit to the
subsequent attachment file name and note that in the email.

The problem I have is trying to cull the directory. If I move useful files
elsewhere the email points to a null file. If I leave them in place the numbers
get huge over years! It is nearly impossible to delete all the crap.
Bazillions of tiny files are used in graphic HTML emails.


Keeping them in mbox format avoids splitting them up,
avoids fiddling with filename suffixes, and multiple
entirely different tools can read the same format. If
I want to extract a single message including attachments,
then I simply select it and copy it to a folder, and
hey presto there it is.

I couldn't cope with Eudora's complexity for something
simple like that.

The only disadvantage is that my gmail inbox contains
10034 messages, and the mbox file is 890MB. Seamonkey
has no problems whatsoever (Thunderbird did; that's why
I swapped)

rickman
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:49 am   



On 10/24/2016 5:26 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Quote:
On 24/10/16 19:55, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 2:45 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:02, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing
software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG,
BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps,
arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in
"free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in
making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the
wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would only
use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch.
But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new
machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used to how
it would
work with filters and such for my regular email.

Exactly the same way, with either IMAP (for gmail) or POP (for
everything else) access.

Whatever that means. I'm talking about the user interface. I expect the
internals to work the same.

So am I, and I don't care, respectively.

IMAP keeps a copy of the emails on my machine (in case
google disappears), and leaves the original on the google
server. Occasionally I the gmail web interface when doing
more complex searches.

POP3 copies the files to my machines and deletes them
on the server.


Yes, I'm familiar with the two. But that isn't the user interface. All
email programs use one or the other or either of the protocols. But
they have different user interfaces.


Quote:
At one point there was an effort to morph T-bird into a Eudora work
alike,
Penelope. I think it was never completed. Probably found there was
little
benefit compared to the huge amount of work involved.


Caveat: I haven't used TBird recently, but I use Seamonkey,
which is effectively the same thing. Certainly transferring
from one to the other was trivial: just use the same mbox
file (or a copy if you are feeling slightly pessimistic)


Eudora is a great program, but
some day I won't be able to use it anymore.

ISTR Eudora kept attachments separate from the email,
with all attachments in the same directory. If two
attachments had the same name, you lost the first,
doh!

No, duplicate file names happen all the time. They add a digit to the
subsequent attachment file name and note that in the email.

The problem I have is trying to cull the directory. If I move useful
files
elsewhere the email points to a null file. If I leave them in place
the numbers
get huge over years! It is nearly impossible to delete all the crap.
Bazillions of tiny files are used in graphic HTML emails.

Keeping them in mbox format avoids splitting them up,
avoids fiddling with filename suffixes, and multiple
entirely different tools can read the same format. If
I want to extract a single message including attachments,
then I simply select it and copy it to a folder, and
hey presto there it is.


I'm not familiar with mbox format, but then this is anotehr
implementation detail that a user won't be aware of. I assume you are
saying Eudora didn't do the best job on this feature.


Quote:
I couldn't cope with Eudora's complexity for something
simple like that.


Complexity??? What's complex?


Quote:
The only disadvantage is that my gmail inbox contains
10034 messages, and the mbox file is 890MB. Seamonkey
has no problems whatsoever (Thunderbird did; that's why
I swapped)


I use T-bird for newsgroups and it's my calendar. Both have some
issues, but mostly I find the user interface to be a little awkward. I
find it freezes for some seconds periodically, even while typing. There
is no need for that really.

I didn't realize Seamonkey was much different from T-bird. What would
it take to switch? Could I port all the emails I have used on T-bird
and the account setups including the newsgroup stuff?

--

Rick C

Tom Gardner
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:19 am   



On 25/10/16 00:49, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 10/24/2016 5:26 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:55, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 2:45 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:02, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing
software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG,
BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps,
arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in
"free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in
making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the
wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would only
use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch.
But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new
machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used to how
it would
work with filters and such for my regular email.

Exactly the same way, with either IMAP (for gmail) or POP (for
everything else) access.

Whatever that means. I'm talking about the user interface. I expect the
internals to work the same.

So am I, and I don't care, respectively.

IMAP keeps a copy of the emails on my machine (in case
google disappears), and leaves the original on the google
server. Occasionally I the gmail web interface when doing
more complex searches.

POP3 copies the files to my machines and deletes them
on the server.

Yes, I'm familiar with the two. But that isn't the user interface. All email
programs use one or the other or either of the protocols. But they have
different user interfaces.


The GUIs are the same. The semantics are /slightly/
different, but that's directly understandable from
the high-level POP3/IMAP philosophy of where the
files are stored.



Quote:
At one point there was an effort to morph T-bird into a Eudora work
alike,
Penelope. I think it was never completed. Probably found there was
little
benefit compared to the huge amount of work involved.


Caveat: I haven't used TBird recently, but I use Seamonkey,
which is effectively the same thing. Certainly transferring
from one to the other was trivial: just use the same mbox
file (or a copy if you are feeling slightly pessimistic)


Eudora is a great program, but
some day I won't be able to use it anymore.

ISTR Eudora kept attachments separate from the email,
with all attachments in the same directory. If two
attachments had the same name, you lost the first,
doh!

No, duplicate file names happen all the time. They add a digit to the
subsequent attachment file name and note that in the email.

The problem I have is trying to cull the directory. If I move useful
files
elsewhere the email points to a null file. If I leave them in place
the numbers
get huge over years! It is nearly impossible to delete all the crap.
Bazillions of tiny files are used in graphic HTML emails.

Keeping them in mbox format avoids splitting them up,
avoids fiddling with filename suffixes, and multiple
entirely different tools can read the same format. If
I want to extract a single message including attachments,
then I simply select it and copy it to a folder, and
hey presto there it is.

I'm not familiar with mbox format, but then this is anotehr implementation
detail that a user won't be aware of. I assume you are saying Eudora didn't do
the best job on this feature.


I couldn't cope with Eudora's complexity for something
simple like that.

Complexity??? What's complex?


The only disadvantage is that my gmail inbox contains
10034 messages, and the mbox file is 890MB. Seamonkey
has no problems whatsoever (Thunderbird did; that's why
I swapped)

I use T-bird for newsgroups and it's my calendar. Both have some issues, but
mostly I find the user interface to be a little awkward. I find it freezes for
some seconds periodically, even while typing. There is no need for that really.


Long pauses are what made me swap. IIRC, and it
is a long time ago, TB hit a cliff with large files.
That happened suddenly from one TB release to another,
and it is the reason I started looking at alternatives
such as Eudora.

I see no reason why Seamonkey shouldn't have exactly
the same problem, but it doesn't.

Of course, when I compress the mbox (before archiving
it) that account freezes while the 1GB file is copied
at 50MB/s. Other accounts and newsgroups keep working,
so I assume a degree of multithreading.


Quote:
I didn't realize Seamonkey was much different from T-bird. What would it take
to switch? Could I port all the emails I have used on T-bird and the account
setups including the newsgroup stuff?


Yes, with 99.5% probability. I suspect you could
flip between the two on the same directory tree,
but prudence dictates copying the directory tree.
On my machine that is
~/.mozilla/seamonkey/k7xa5cev.default/
Note the similarity in naming conventions!

Download seamonkey, copy tree, try it, see
what you think.

rickman
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:30 am   



On 10/24/2016 8:19 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Quote:
On 25/10/16 00:49, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 5:26 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:55, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 2:45 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:02, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing
software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG,
BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps,
arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in
"free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in
making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open
source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the
wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would only
use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch.
But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new
machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used to how
it would
work with filters and such for my regular email.

Exactly the same way, with either IMAP (for gmail) or POP (for
everything else) access.

Whatever that means. I'm talking about the user interface. I
expect the
internals to work the same.

So am I, and I don't care, respectively.

IMAP keeps a copy of the emails on my machine (in case
google disappears), and leaves the original on the google
server. Occasionally I the gmail web interface when doing
more complex searches.

POP3 copies the files to my machines and deletes them
on the server.

Yes, I'm familiar with the two. But that isn't the user interface.
All email
programs use one or the other or either of the protocols. But they have
different user interfaces.

The GUIs are the same. The semantics are /slightly/
different, but that's directly understandable from
the high-level POP3/IMAP philosophy of where the
files are stored.


At this point I think we are not communicating. I am talking about the
user interface of an email program. I've never seen two the same. I
think you are still talking about the protocols although I don't know
how you can relate the protocol to a user interface.

My point is all email programs work without the user knowing anything
about the protocol. It has little impact on the user interface other
than error and/or status messages. Eudora gives a bit more info by
showing the several stages involved in getting the email, but that is
not central to the user interface.


Quote:
At one point there was an effort to morph T-bird into a Eudora work
alike,
Penelope. I think it was never completed. Probably found there was
little
benefit compared to the huge amount of work involved.


Caveat: I haven't used TBird recently, but I use Seamonkey,
which is effectively the same thing. Certainly transferring
from one to the other was trivial: just use the same mbox
file (or a copy if you are feeling slightly pessimistic)


Eudora is a great program, but
some day I won't be able to use it anymore.

ISTR Eudora kept attachments separate from the email,
with all attachments in the same directory. If two
attachments had the same name, you lost the first,
doh!

No, duplicate file names happen all the time. They add a digit to the
subsequent attachment file name and note that in the email.

The problem I have is trying to cull the directory. If I move useful
files
elsewhere the email points to a null file. If I leave them in place
the numbers
get huge over years! It is nearly impossible to delete all the crap.
Bazillions of tiny files are used in graphic HTML emails.

Keeping them in mbox format avoids splitting them up,
avoids fiddling with filename suffixes, and multiple
entirely different tools can read the same format. If
I want to extract a single message including attachments,
then I simply select it and copy it to a folder, and
hey presto there it is.

I'm not familiar with mbox format, but then this is anotehr
implementation
detail that a user won't be aware of. I assume you are saying Eudora
didn't do
the best job on this feature.


I couldn't cope with Eudora's complexity for something
simple like that.

Complexity??? What's complex?


The only disadvantage is that my gmail inbox contains
10034 messages, and the mbox file is 890MB. Seamonkey
has no problems whatsoever (Thunderbird did; that's why
I swapped)

I use T-bird for newsgroups and it's my calendar. Both have some
issues, but
mostly I find the user interface to be a little awkward. I find it
freezes for
some seconds periodically, even while typing. There is no need for
that really.

Long pauses are what made me swap. IIRC, and it
is a long time ago, TB hit a cliff with large files.
That happened suddenly from one TB release to another,
and it is the reason I started looking at alternatives
such as Eudora.

I see no reason why Seamonkey shouldn't have exactly
the same problem, but it doesn't.


I was just going to ask...


Quote:
Of course, when I compress the mbox (before archiving
it) that account freezes while the 1GB file is copied
at 50MB/s. Other accounts and newsgroups keep working,
so I assume a degree of multithreading.


I didn't realize Seamonkey was much different from T-bird. What would
it take
to switch? Could I port all the emails I have used on T-bird and the
account
setups including the newsgroup stuff?

Yes, with 99.5% probability. I suspect you could
flip between the two on the same directory tree,
but prudence dictates copying the directory tree.
On my machine that is
~/.mozilla/seamonkey/k7xa5cev.default/
Note the similarity in naming conventions!

Download seamonkey, copy tree, try it, see
what you think.


Maybe I will. Does it have anything like Lightning for a calendar program?

--

Rick C

David Brown
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:09 pm   



On 25/10/16 02:19, Tom Gardner wrote:

Quote:
Long pauses are what made me swap. IIRC, and it
is a long time ago, TB hit a cliff with large files.
That happened suddenly from one TB release to another,
and it is the reason I started looking at alternatives
such as Eudora.

I see no reason why Seamonkey shouldn't have exactly
the same problem, but it doesn't.


I see "long pauses" in older versions of Thunderbird (with an older
Linux installation), but no such problems with newer versions of
Thunderbird. Maybe it is quite simply a problem that has been fixed,
and your Seamonkey happens to have avoided the problem that existed in
some versions of the underlying Mozilla libraries.

rickman
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:20 pm   



On 10/25/2016 3:09 AM, David Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 25/10/16 02:19, Tom Gardner wrote:

Long pauses are what made me swap. IIRC, and it
is a long time ago, TB hit a cliff with large files.
That happened suddenly from one TB release to another,
and it is the reason I started looking at alternatives
such as Eudora.

I see no reason why Seamonkey shouldn't have exactly
the same problem, but it doesn't.


I see "long pauses" in older versions of Thunderbird (with an older
Linux installation), but no such problems with newer versions of
Thunderbird. Maybe it is quite simply a problem that has been fixed,
and your Seamonkey happens to have avoided the problem that existed in
some versions of the underlying Mozilla libraries.


I'm running the current version and I still see plenty of delays. 45.4.0

--

Rick C

Tom Gardner
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:29 pm   



On 25/10/16 08:09, David Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 25/10/16 02:19, Tom Gardner wrote:

Long pauses are what made me swap. IIRC, and it
is a long time ago, TB hit a cliff with large files.
That happened suddenly from one TB release to another,
and it is the reason I started looking at alternatives
such as Eudora.

I see no reason why Seamonkey shouldn't have exactly
the same problem, but it doesn't.


I see "long pauses" in older versions of Thunderbird (with an older
Linux installation), but no such problems with newer versions of
Thunderbird. Maybe it is quite simply a problem that has been fixed,
and your Seamonkey happens to have avoided the problem that existed in
some versions of the underlying Mozilla libraries.


That is entirely possible.

I saw the problem persist for several TB iterations,
and since Seamonkey avoided them, I abandoned TB and
haven't found a reason to go back.

If Seamonkey disappeared or became problematical,
TB would be my first port of call.

Tom Gardner
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:46 pm   



On 25/10/16 03:19, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 10/24/2016 8:19 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 25/10/16 00:49, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 5:26 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:55, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 2:45 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:02, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing
software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG,
BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps,
arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in
"free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in
making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open
source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the
wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would only
use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch.
But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new
machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used to how
it would
work with filters and such for my regular email.

Exactly the same way, with either IMAP (for gmail) or POP (for
everything else) access.

Whatever that means. I'm talking about the user interface. I
expect the
internals to work the same.

So am I, and I don't care, respectively.

IMAP keeps a copy of the emails on my machine (in case
google disappears), and leaves the original on the google
server. Occasionally I the gmail web interface when doing
more complex searches.

POP3 copies the files to my machines and deletes them
on the server.

Yes, I'm familiar with the two. But that isn't the user interface.
All email
programs use one or the other or either of the protocols. But they have
different user interfaces.

The GUIs are the same. The semantics are /slightly/
different, but that's directly understandable from
the high-level POP3/IMAP philosophy of where the
files are stored.

At this point I think we are not communicating. I am talking about the user
interface of an email program. I've never seen two the same. I think you are
still talking about the protocols although I don't know how you can relate the
protocol to a user interface.


Sigh. GUI=what you see. Semantics=what happens
when you interact with the GUI.

I repeat: the GUIs are the same for Seamonkey
and Thunderbird, for IMAP and POP3.

The principal difference between IMAP and POP3 is that
in IMAP the messages are stored and synced between
your machine and the email server. There is thus, *of*
*necessity*, a *semantic* difference between the two.

The semantic differences do *not* appear in the GUI
operations, widgets, etc, and can only be *seen*
in almost imperceptible and unimportant differences
to do with copying messages.

Try it. In TB, create two accounts and set the server
settings to POP3 and IMAP. Have a look at the GUIs:
they are the same.


Quote:
My point is all email programs work without the user knowing anything about the
protocol. It has little impact on the user interface other than error and/or
status messages. Eudora gives a bit more info by showing the several stages
involved in getting the email, but that is not central to the user interface.


Yes. What's the problem? The IMAP and POP3
GUIs are the same.


Quote:
At one point there was an effort to morph T-bird into a Eudora work
alike,
Penelope. I think it was never completed. Probably found there was
little
benefit compared to the huge amount of work involved.


Caveat: I haven't used TBird recently, but I use Seamonkey,
which is effectively the same thing. Certainly transferring
from one to the other was trivial: just use the same mbox
file (or a copy if you are feeling slightly pessimistic)


Eudora is a great program, but
some day I won't be able to use it anymore.

ISTR Eudora kept attachments separate from the email,
with all attachments in the same directory. If two
attachments had the same name, you lost the first,
doh!

No, duplicate file names happen all the time. They add a digit to the
subsequent attachment file name and note that in the email.

The problem I have is trying to cull the directory. If I move useful
files
elsewhere the email points to a null file. If I leave them in place
the numbers
get huge over years! It is nearly impossible to delete all the crap.
Bazillions of tiny files are used in graphic HTML emails.

Keeping them in mbox format avoids splitting them up,
avoids fiddling with filename suffixes, and multiple
entirely different tools can read the same format. If
I want to extract a single message including attachments,
then I simply select it and copy it to a folder, and
hey presto there it is.

I'm not familiar with mbox format, but then this is anotehr
implementation
detail that a user won't be aware of. I assume you are saying Eudora
didn't do
the best job on this feature.


I couldn't cope with Eudora's complexity for something
simple like that.

Complexity??? What's complex?


The only disadvantage is that my gmail inbox contains
10034 messages, and the mbox file is 890MB. Seamonkey
has no problems whatsoever (Thunderbird did; that's why
I swapped)

I use T-bird for newsgroups and it's my calendar. Both have some
issues, but
mostly I find the user interface to be a little awkward. I find it
freezes for
some seconds periodically, even while typing. There is no need for
that really.

Long pauses are what made me swap. IIRC, and it
is a long time ago, TB hit a cliff with large files.
That happened suddenly from one TB release to another,
and it is the reason I started looking at alternatives
such as Eudora.

I see no reason why Seamonkey shouldn't have exactly
the same problem, but it doesn't.

I was just going to ask...


Of course, when I compress the mbox (before archiving
it) that account freezes while the 1GB file is copied
at 50MB/s. Other accounts and newsgroups keep working,
so I assume a degree of multithreading.


I didn't realize Seamonkey was much different from T-bird. What would
it take
to switch? Could I port all the emails I have used on T-bird and the
account
setups including the newsgroup stuff?

Yes, with 99.5% probability. I suspect you could
flip between the two on the same directory tree,
but prudence dictates copying the directory tree.
On my machine that is
~/.mozilla/seamonkey/k7xa5cev.default/
Note the similarity in naming conventions!

Download seamonkey, copy tree, try it, see
what you think.

Maybe I will. Does it have anything like Lightning for a calendar program?


No idea what that is, I use tkremind.
But see http://tinyurl.com/jn7rlfb

Theo Markettos
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:40 pm   



rickman <gnuarm_at_gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in "free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open source?


What's odd is the way it's built for Windows, and the solution to run on
Linux or Mac is to use WINE. But it's implemented in wxPython, which is a
cross-platform library. So it should be straightforward to run natively on
Mac and Linux. Maybe the author doesn't have a system to test, but I'm sure
the 'open source community' (whoever that might be) could help out with
that.

Theo

rickman
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:46 pm   



On 10/25/2016 3:46 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Quote:
On 25/10/16 03:19, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 8:19 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 25/10/16 00:49, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 5:26 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:55, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 2:45 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/10/16 19:02, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing
software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG,
BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps,
arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not
as in
"free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in
making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open
source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the
wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would
only
use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't
think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop
using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch.
But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new
machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used
to how
it would
work with filters and such for my regular email.

Exactly the same way, with either IMAP (for gmail) or POP (for
everything else) access.

Whatever that means. I'm talking about the user interface. I
expect the
internals to work the same.

So am I, and I don't care, respectively.

IMAP keeps a copy of the emails on my machine (in case
google disappears), and leaves the original on the google
server. Occasionally I the gmail web interface when doing
more complex searches.

POP3 copies the files to my machines and deletes them
on the server.

Yes, I'm familiar with the two. But that isn't the user interface.
All email
programs use one or the other or either of the protocols. But they
have
different user interfaces.

The GUIs are the same. The semantics are /slightly/
different, but that's directly understandable from
the high-level POP3/IMAP philosophy of where the
files are stored.

At this point I think we are not communicating. I am talking about
the user
interface of an email program. I've never seen two the same. I think
you are
still talking about the protocols although I don't know how you can
relate the
protocol to a user interface.

Sigh. GUI=what you see. Semantics=what happens
when you interact with the GUI.

I repeat: the GUIs are the same for Seamonkey
and Thunderbird, for IMAP and POP3.


I have no idea what you are talking about "for IMAP and POP3". I am
talking about the overall functioning of the email program. I have no
idea why you keep focusing on the protocols. I won't bother to continue
to talk past each other.


Quote:
The principal difference between IMAP and POP3 is that
in IMAP the messages are stored and synced between
your machine and the email server. There is thus, *of*
*necessity*, a *semantic* difference between the two.

The semantic differences do *not* appear in the GUI
operations, widgets, etc, and can only be *seen*
in almost imperceptible and unimportant differences
to do with copying messages.

Try it. In TB, create two accounts and set the server
settings to POP3 and IMAP. Have a look at the GUIs:
they are the same.


I've never said there is any difference between the user interfaces as
far as the protocols go. I don't know what you are going on about.


Quote:
My point is all email programs work without the user knowing anything
about the
protocol. It has little impact on the user interface other than error
and/or
status messages. Eudora gives a bit more info by showing the several
stages
involved in getting the email, but that is not central to the user
interface.

Yes. What's the problem? The IMAP and POP3
GUIs are the same.


I'm not talking about IMAP and POP3. I'm talking about different email
programs.


Quote:
At one point there was an effort to morph T-bird into a Eudora work
alike,
Penelope. I think it was never completed. Probably found there was
little
benefit compared to the huge amount of work involved.


Caveat: I haven't used TBird recently, but I use Seamonkey,
which is effectively the same thing. Certainly transferring
from one to the other was trivial: just use the same mbox
file (or a copy if you are feeling slightly pessimistic)


Eudora is a great program, but
some day I won't be able to use it anymore.

ISTR Eudora kept attachments separate from the email,
with all attachments in the same directory. If two
attachments had the same name, you lost the first,
doh!

No, duplicate file names happen all the time. They add a digit to
the
subsequent attachment file name and note that in the email.

The problem I have is trying to cull the directory. If I move useful
files
elsewhere the email points to a null file. If I leave them in place
the numbers
get huge over years! It is nearly impossible to delete all the crap.
Bazillions of tiny files are used in graphic HTML emails.

Keeping them in mbox format avoids splitting them up,
avoids fiddling with filename suffixes, and multiple
entirely different tools can read the same format. If
I want to extract a single message including attachments,
then I simply select it and copy it to a folder, and
hey presto there it is.

I'm not familiar with mbox format, but then this is anotehr
implementation
detail that a user won't be aware of. I assume you are saying Eudora
didn't do
the best job on this feature.


I couldn't cope with Eudora's complexity for something
simple like that.

Complexity??? What's complex?


The only disadvantage is that my gmail inbox contains
10034 messages, and the mbox file is 890MB. Seamonkey
has no problems whatsoever (Thunderbird did; that's why
I swapped)

I use T-bird for newsgroups and it's my calendar. Both have some
issues, but
mostly I find the user interface to be a little awkward. I find it
freezes for
some seconds periodically, even while typing. There is no need for
that really.

Long pauses are what made me swap. IIRC, and it
is a long time ago, TB hit a cliff with large files.
That happened suddenly from one TB release to another,
and it is the reason I started looking at alternatives
such as Eudora.

I see no reason why Seamonkey shouldn't have exactly
the same problem, but it doesn't.

I was just going to ask...


Of course, when I compress the mbox (before archiving
it) that account freezes while the 1GB file is copied
at 50MB/s. Other accounts and newsgroups keep working,
so I assume a degree of multithreading.


I didn't realize Seamonkey was much different from T-bird. What would
it take
to switch? Could I port all the emails I have used on T-bird and the
account
setups including the newsgroup stuff?

Yes, with 99.5% probability. I suspect you could
flip between the two on the same directory tree,
but prudence dictates copying the directory tree.
On my machine that is
~/.mozilla/seamonkey/k7xa5cev.default/
Note the similarity in naming conventions!

Download seamonkey, copy tree, try it, see
what you think.

Maybe I will. Does it have anything like Lightning for a calendar
program?

No idea what that is, I use tkremind.
But see http://tinyurl.com/jn7rlfb


Lightning used to be a calendar plugin for T-bird (maybe it still is),
now it comes with T-bird.

--

Rick C

rickman
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:47 pm   



On 10/25/2016 8:40 AM, Theo Markettos wrote:
Quote:
rickman <gnuarm_at_gmail.com> wrote:
This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in "free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open source?

What's odd is the way it's built for Windows, and the solution to run on
Linux or Mac is to use WINE. But it's implemented in wxPython, which is a
cross-platform library. So it should be straightforward to run natively on
Mac and Linux. Maybe the author doesn't have a system to test, but I'm sure
the 'open source community' (whoever that might be) could help out with
that.


But it's not open source, or did I miss something?

--

Rick C

Cecil Bayona
Guest

Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:08 pm   



On 10/24/2016 1:02 PM, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG, BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps, arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in "free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would only use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch. But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used to how it
would work with filters and such for my regular email. Eudora is a
great program, but some day I won't be able to use it anymore.

I ended having to stop using Eudora, I love it but my ISP started using
1024 bit Certificates and Eudora could not handle that so I could not
get my mail. I hated leaving it it works exactly like I wanted it to,
now I have no choice but to use Thunderbird.

For a while I used a Linux machine for my mail and I used Evolution and
liked it quite a bit but then they made drastic changes to it and
actually took out features, My Mac Email was based on Evolution and I
liked it too but they followed the changes in the Linux version and I
was disappointed.

I hear Thunderbird is going away, I'm not sure what to do then.

--
Cecil - k5nwa

David Brown
Guest

Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:20 pm   



On 25/10/16 18:08, Cecil Bayona wrote:
Quote:
On 10/24/2016 1:02 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/24/2016 11:33 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
On 10/24/2016 10:17 AM, rickman wrote:
On 10/21/2016 5:48 PM, wavemediagram_at_gmail.com wrote:
May I suggest Waveme?

waveme.weebly.com

It is a new, free, GUI-based, digital timing diagram drawing software
for Windows (and Linux/MacOS via Wine).

Waveme is intended primarily for documentation purposes,
where a diagram can be exported (stored) to an image file (PNG, BMP or
TIFF) or a PDF document.

Waveme can be used to draw waveforms (signals and buses), gaps, arrows
and labels (see attached images).

This is "free" software in the sense of "free beer", but not as in
"free
speech", right? It doesn't appear that there is an interest in making
money from this, at least not for now. Why not make it open source?

I've seen too many special purpose graphical tools go by the wayside to
consider spending time to learn a tool like this that I would only use
sporadically. If this tool ends up with no support I don't think I
would want to be using it unless the source were available.

I have an email program like that which I don't want to stop using
because it works well and I'd have a learning curve to switch. But no
more bug fixes and one of these days it won't port to the new machine.

Yeah. I use T-bird for newsgroups, but I've never gotten used to how it
would work with filters and such for my regular email. Eudora is a
great program, but some day I won't be able to use it anymore.

I ended having to stop using Eudora, I love it but my ISP started using
1024 bit Certificates and Eudora could not handle that so I could not
get my mail. I hated leaving it it works exactly like I wanted it to,
now I have no choice but to use Thunderbird.

For a while I used a Linux machine for my mail and I used Evolution and
liked it quite a bit but then they made drastic changes to it and
actually took out features, My Mac Email was based on Evolution and I
liked it too but they followed the changes in the Linux version and I
was disappointed.

I hear Thunderbird is going away, I'm not sure what to do then.


Thunderbird is not "going away". That was a rumour started
(intentionally for scandal effect, or just through incompetence - I am
not sure) by an online IT magazine, and copied widely.

The Thunderbird development group are looking for a new "home", and
trying to leave the Mozilla Foundation. This is not anyone being thrown
out, or a disagreement, nor is it the end of Thunderbird. It is simply
that the Mozilla folk, the Thunderbird folk and the Firefox folk have
realised that keeping Thunderbird and Firefox development tied together
in the same place hinders both projects. Moving Thunderbird to
something like the Apache Foundation or The Document Foundation (home of
LibreOffice) would be better for Thunderbird development.

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