Expedition PCB with ViewDraw by MENTOR Graph. (former VERIBE

Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:49 pm   

Dear sci.electronics.cad groupies,

has anyone experience with EXPEDITION PCB and ViewDraw from Mentor? Can
you recommend it?

How much do either cost in the USA or elsewhere?

Regards
Gerhart

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:37 pm   

: Dear sci.electronics.cad groupies,

: has anyone experience with EXPEDITION PCB and ViewDraw from Mentor? Can
: you recommend it?

I have had a lot of experience with ViewDraw, which is called
"DxDesigner" these days. I have used it for several years at various
corporations around Boston, MA, where it seems to be the standard
schematic capture program [1]. It is an easy to use package; it
behaves very intuitively. It used to be kind of buggy [2], but my
current version (8.1.0) hasn't caused too many problems. OTOH, I did
more difficult designs in the past (more hierarchy with re-used
blocks), and the OATS technology was a major source of bugs. Sometimes
my design and the output netlists wouldn't agree. In that case, I had
to delete all the .wir files in order to get rid of old, hidden stuff
which was confusing the program. Nowadays I am not doing such
complicated stuff, so perhaps that's why ViewDraw is better behaved.

I can't speak for Expedition; I have only seen the Mentor sales demo.
It looked pretty cool & very capable.

: How much do either cost in the USA or elsewhere?

ViewDraw and Expedition are high-end products useful for complicated
designs. Bundled together they cost around $10K -- $20K I believe,
perhaps more. If you are doing high-end stuff (big boards, many
thousands of nets, eight or more layers, routing constraints, diff
pairs, hierarchy, etc.), then they are appropriate tools, and I'd
recommend them. I'd also recommend having an in-house tools guru who
can help you out when the tools misbehave.

If you're not doing high-end stuff, then they are too much money.

Stuart (who continues to advocate the free, open-source gEDA Suite for
low- and mid-level circuit design: http://www.geda.seul.org/ )


[1] I hear that Cadence's "Capture" is more common on the West
Coast. True?

[2] But not nearly as buggy as Protel, which sets the standard for
misbehaving EDA software.

Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:36 pm   

Dear Stuart,
thank you for your comment
Stuart Brorson schrieb:
....

Did you also have a chance to get aquainted with the DesignView, the
other schematics program of Mentor? Any comments on that?
I worked with ORCAD capture since a couple of years.


I have to work with constraints like tuned net length and shielded
lines/pairs by reducing the layer count to the minimum.

Maybe it is possible for anyone who reads this to find out the US-price
of DxDesigner, DesignView and Expedition Ascent?

Regards
Gerhart

Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:29 pm   

GHL <ANTIGHLSPAM_at_scitel.de> wrote:
: Dear Stuart,
: thank you for your comment
: Stuart Brorson schrieb:
: ...
:> I have had a lot of experience with ViewDraw, which is called
:> "DxDesigner" these days. ... It is an easy to use package; it
:> behaves very intuitively.

: Did you also have a chance to get aquainted with the DesignView, the
: other schematics program of Mentor? Any comments on that?

I have not used it. The other Mentor schematic capture program I have
used in teh distant past was "Design Architect", which was rather
archaic even way back when I was using it. It ran on unix & you had
to learn strokes with the mouse to manipulate your design elements. I
found it very strange. Also, our installation was very broken. I
wouldn't recommend it.

: I worked with ORCAD capture since a couple of years.

My sympathies.

: I have to work with constraints like tuned net length and shielded
: lines/pairs by reducing the layer count to the minimum.

You need something high end and ViewDraw/Expedition is a good choice.
The other choice would be Cadence's Capture/Allegro combination.

Alternately, you can still run a ViewDraw -> Allegro flow. This is
quite common in America's Northeast. HOwever, I don't know how much
longer Mentor will support this flow. They claim they will continue
to support it, but I have my doubts. . . . .

: Maybe it is possible for anyone who reads this to find out the US-price
: of DxDesigner, DesignView and Expedition Ascent?

For expensive software like this, there is rarely a fixed price.
Rather, you negotiate a price with your Mentor sales guy. The price
depends upon the size of your organization, how many seats you want,
whether it's a nodelocked or floating licence, how hard you negotiate,
how much Mentor wants your business, and plenty of other issues too.

Contact your Mentor rep.

Stuart

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:27 am   

My company uses Expedition, and it is a powerful program that works well.
However, it is expensive.



Jim

Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:34 pm   

If your doing high end stuff then Expedition is worth the outlay. Otherwise
I'd recommend Pulsonix (http://www.pulsonix.com/ )above other packages such
as Pads/Orcad/Protel/CADstar etc.

Richard

Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:14 pm   

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:37:30 -0000, Stuart Brorson <sdb_at_cloud9.net>
wrote:


I delete .wir files on a daily basis whether they need it or not...
this needed to be fixed years ago.

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:36 am   

rasth_at_fakename.com wrote:
: On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:37:30 -0000, Stuart Brorson <sdb_at_cloud9.net>
: wrote:
: > my design and the output netlists wouldn't agree. In that case, I
: had
: > to delete all the .wir files in order to get rid of old, hidden
: stuff
: > which was confusing the program. Nowadays I am not doing such


: I delete .wir files on a daily basis whether they need it or not...
: this needed to be fixed years ago.

Exactly. So why hasn't ViewDraw -> Innoveda -> Mentor Graphics done
the right thing? It's not that hard, and they've had about a decade
to do it . . . .

Another reason why open-source will eat their lunch eventually.

Stuart