EDAboard.com | EDAboard.de | EDAboard.co.uk | WTWH Media

EV charging price

Ask a question - edaboard.com

elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Electronics Design - EV charging price

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:45 am   



We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:45 am   



On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:20:48 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
Quote:
On 01/30/2019 05:53 PM, edward.ming.lee_at_gmail.com wrote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

I've received 537 kWh from ChargePoint chargers in the past ~5 months my
total cost was $3:


ChargePoint lets the property owner decides. They can be reasonable and/or not. I have seen $0.25/min ChargePoint as well. Evgo is company owned, fixed at $0.15/min for members. But that's still quite expensive at high SOC. They can do that when they are the only game in town (or highway) within 30 miles.

People don't understand the game until i show them the numbers. So, please check my numbers. They are good faith fair estimates.

bitrex
Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:45 am   



On 01/30/2019 05:53 PM, edward.ming.lee_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.


I've received 537 kWh from ChargePoint chargers in the past ~5 months my
total cost was $3:

<https://www.dropbox.com/s/2977ysuyo1xy2ym/Screenshot_20190130-181338.png?dl=0>

<https://www.dropbox.com/s/gxg2bo33m4xyxk2/Screenshot_20190130-181349.png?dl=0>

bitrex
Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:45 am   



On 01/30/2019 05:53 PM, edward.ming.lee_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?


I think this is a situation where "let the market decide" works pretty
good. I see a bunch of Evgo chargers with silly rates like that nobody
uses 'em. How do they make money charging those rates? Doesn't make
sense in a plug-in hybrid at least to use that over gas

None of the public chargers I use regularly charge anything for the
charge itself. The chargers I like at the supermarket and local
Starbucks give you a premium parking spot and 3 hours of charging time
prior to billing you anything in exchange for you patronizing their fine
establishment and spending money there so that's what I do.

There are some town-owned chargers that charge a nominal fee for the
parking itself like $1/hr I use sometimes. There's a charger I use in
the commuter rail station that's free because damn you're already paying
$15/24 period or part thereof, non-pro rated, for parking there.

There's a good-sized ChargePoint station at the local utility company
offices near my girlfriend's place in Providence the charge is free 24/7
as a public service/push their product like a drug dealer kind of situation.

This works fine for me I almost never pay for charge in the wild to fill
the rather small battery-pack my vehicle has, you really don't have to
as things are in my area already.


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:45 am   



On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?


The line that is labeled "Tesla Supercharger" doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 charging, right?

In general your chart is not really clear. I don't understand why on a line where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize there is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is dependent on the car and even the particular battery. I also don't understand why you list kWh. If it is kW instead, the number paired with the amps seems to imply 400 volt charging. Is this level 3, DC fast charging??? My car will charge at 120 kW from 10% to 50% where it starts ramping down to a fairly low charge rate by 90% SoC.

I don't agree with Bitrex that the rates should be set by the "free market".. In many ways charging facilities are presently more like utilities with little competition. Of course, that may change. At one time most jurisdictions regulated the pricing by the cable TV franchises that the local jurisdictions gave monopolies to. They allow competition to set the price now that there is competition. While you may want to "protect" the consumer, it is also in the best interest of consumers for the market to grow and develop. So perhaps a "fair" rate of $0.15 per kWh is not high enough to allow a reasonable profit. $0.05 a minute while charging might be a bit low as well. Tesla has a $0.50 per minute idle fee after your charging is complete and the station is half full. $1.00 a minute if the chargers are full although that is for a different purpose. If I was in the habit of paying for charging I think I would be willing to pay double the rates you are suggesting.

I like getting my charging for free which many locations provide... I suspect because the bottom line is the cost is not very much in the grand scheme of running a business. Rather than encouraging commercial installations, perhaps the encouragement of vendor provided charging would be as useful if not more so. Also it is important for jurisdictions to pass reasonable laws allowing businesses to make the charger parking either EV only or a short time limit for non-EV parking, enforceable by the same authority that enforces other parking violations.

In the short term it is important to encourage both the adoption of EVs as well as the growth of the EV charging network.



Rick C.

- Get 6 months of free supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:45 am   



On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:43:49 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?

The line that is labeled "Tesla Supercharger" doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 charging, right?


Tesla supercharger costs around $0.25/KWH in the area, between $0.15/KWH in San Mateo (run by solar) and $0.30/KWH in San Francisco (run by politician).

> In general your chart is not really clear. I don't understand why on a line where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize there is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is dependent on the car and even the particular battery.

This is for charging 24KWH Nissan Leaf as stated in the article.


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:45 am   



On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:58:14 PM UTC-8, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:43:49 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?

The line that is labeled "Tesla Supercharger" doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 charging, right?

Tesla supercharger costs around $0.25/KWH in the area, between $0.15/KWH in San Mateo (run by solar) and $0.30/KWH in San Francisco (run by politician).

In general your chart is not really clear. I don't understand why on a line where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize there is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is dependent on the car and even the particular battery.

This is for charging 24KWH Nissan Leaf as stated in the article.


OK, third column should be in KW and Tesla rate should be below SF.
Table looks better in fix-pitch font.

SOC Amp KW MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11
10 San Francisco Electricity
9 Tesla Supercharger
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

bitrex
Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:45 am   



On 01/30/2019 06:43 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?

The line that is labeled "Tesla Supercharger" doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 charging, right?

In general your chart is not really clear. I don't understand why on a line where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize there is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is dependent on the car and even the particular battery. I also don't understand why you list kWh. If it is kW instead, the number paired with the amps seems to imply 400 volt charging. Is this level 3, DC fast charging??? My car will charge at 120 kW from 10% to 50% where it starts ramping down to a fairly low charge rate by 90% SoC.

I don't agree with Bitrex that the rates should be set by the "free market". In many ways charging facilities are presently more like utilities with little competition. Of course, that may change. At one time most jurisdictions regulated the pricing by the cable TV franchises that the local jurisdictions gave monopolies to. They allow competition to set the price now that there is competition. While you may want to "protect" the consumer, it is also in the best interest of consumers for the market to grow and develop. So perhaps a "fair" rate of $0.15 per kWh is not high enough to allow a reasonable profit. $0.05 a minute while charging might be a bit low as well. Tesla has a $0.50 per minute idle fee after your charging is complete and the station is half full. $1.00 a minute if the chargers are full although that is for a different purpose. If I was in the habit of paying for charging I think I would be willing to pay double the rates you are suggesting.


You know me I think the reason the market will work here is that the
potential gougers have the "model" wrong. If they think they're gonna
run some "last chance gas!" on the highway-model or set up shop like
they're the only gas station in town, like EVs are just like ICE cars
except have a battery-tank instead of a gas tank, fat chance of that,
there are almost always other options, even a 120 volt wall socket
(albeit a rather slow one) and IMO people will always find other options
vs. getting screwed if they're available, except in a dire emergency.

Can't really do that with significant quantities of hydrocarbons in
tanks. By comparison the barriers to entry on a charging station is
relatively low. Parking lots and power lines are everywhere.

If a highway or remotely-located charging station starts getting quite
popular and trying to gouge then you can have Donnie's Discount Charging
up and running across the street in a lot less time than a competing gas
station. Or even in the same parking lot!

Quote:
I like getting my charging for free which many locations provide... I suspect because the bottom line is the cost is not very much in the grand scheme of running a business. Rather than encouraging commercial installations, perhaps the encouragement of vendor provided charging would be as useful if not more so. Also it is important for jurisdictions to pass reasonable laws allowing businesses to make the charger parking either EV only or a short time limit for non-EV parking, enforceable by the same authority that enforces other parking violations.

In the short term it is important to encourage both the adoption of EVs as well as the growth of the EV charging network.



Rick C.

- Get 6 months of free supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


bitrex
Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:45 am   



On 01/30/2019 07:24 PM, edward.ming.lee_at_gmail.com wrote:

Quote:
This is for charging 24KWH Nissan Leaf as stated in the article.

OK, third column should be in KW and Tesla rate should be below SF.
Table looks better in fix-pitch font.

SOC Amp KW MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11
10 San Francisco Electricity
9 Tesla Supercharger
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity



For the moment looks like the prices are oriented to gouge the wealthy
Tesla owners who definitely don't buy $50k, $80k, or $100k vehicles to
save money on gas. Yeah it kinda sucks for people like me with $26k EVs
but what ya gonna do most of us charge our modest packs at home most of
the time anyway.

It's hard to get too miffed about the quite wealthy having to pay high
rates for their toys or fight for legislation to protect 'em. Dawww poor
kiddos.

It'll change in time maybe if/when Tesla releases a 35k electic car and
it becomes popular with the hoi polloi.


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:45 am   



On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 6:58:14 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:43:49 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?

The line that is labeled "Tesla Supercharger" doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 charging, right?

Tesla supercharger costs around $0.25/KWH in the area, between $0.15/KWH in San Mateo (run by solar) and $0.30/KWH in San Francisco (run by politician).

In general your chart is not really clear. I don't understand why on a line where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize there is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is dependent on the car and even the particular battery.

This is for charging 24KWH Nissan Leaf as stated in the article.


So this chart is for starting at the SoC in the first column and charging up to 100%? So the numbers are the amount of total charge and the associated rates and costs?

I'm not sure the dollars per gal is accurate. Since you are proposing a time related cost, you need to know the total time for charging at each starting point. The rate you provide doesn't persist for the entire charging session I'm pretty sure. In fact, the charge for each amount of charging starting at 90% would be a base level for the next charging increment.

But then I'm still not sure if you are talking about level 3 or level 2 charging.


Rick C.

+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:45 am   



Quote:
You know me I think the reason the market will work here is that the
potential gougers have the "model" wrong. If they think they're gonna
run some "last chance gas!" on the highway-model or set up shop like
they're the only gas station in town, like EVs are just like ICE cars
except have a battery-tank instead of a gas tank, fat chance of that,
there are almost always other options, even a 120 volt wall socket
(albeit a rather slow one) and IMO people will always find other options
vs. getting screwed if they're available, except in a dire emergency.


In the real world, it's not easy just asking for a plug-in. Several restaurants and stores refused, in fear of jumping their breakers.

Quote:

Can't really do that with significant quantities of hydrocarbons in
tanks. By comparison the barriers to entry on a charging station is
relatively low. Parking lots and power lines are everywhere.

If a highway or remotely-located charging station starts getting quite
popular and trying to gouge then you can have Donnie's Discount Charging
up and running across the street in a lot less time than a competing gas
station. Or even in the same parking lot!


Facts remain that very often, $0.15/min ($9/gal) is the only option. I have to charge to 90% in order to get to the next station.

There are not enough Donnie around yet.


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:45 am   



On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 4:57:48 PM UTC-8, George Herold wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?

Maybe the price is determined mostly by the cost of putting in a charger
and not the cost of the electricity.

George H.


Yes, but the per minute pricing is hitting the poor (Leaf) much more than the rich (Bolt & Tesla).

Not that i can't afford it, but it's the principle that count.


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:45 am   



On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 7:25:19 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
Quote:
On 01/30/2019 06:43 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?

The line that is labeled "Tesla Supercharger" doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 charging, right?

In general your chart is not really clear. I don't understand why on a line where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize there is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is dependent on the car and even the particular battery. I also don't understand why you list kWh. If it is kW instead, the number paired with the amps seems to imply 400 volt charging. Is this level 3, DC fast charging??? My car will charge at 120 kW from 10% to 50% where it starts ramping down to a fairly low charge rate by 90% SoC.

I don't agree with Bitrex that the rates should be set by the "free market". In many ways charging facilities are presently more like utilities with little competition. Of course, that may change. At one time most jurisdictions regulated the pricing by the cable TV franchises that the local jurisdictions gave monopolies to. They allow competition to set the price now that there is competition. While you may want to "protect" the consumer, it is also in the best interest of consumers for the market to grow and develop. So perhaps a "fair" rate of $0.15 per kWh is not high enough to allow a reasonable profit. $0.05 a minute while charging might be a bit low as well. Tesla has a $0.50 per minute idle fee after your charging is complete and the station is half full. $1.00 a minute if the chargers are full although that is for a different purpose. If I was in the habit of paying for charging I think I would be willing to pay double the rates you are suggesting.

You know me I think the reason the market will work here is that the
potential gougers have the "model" wrong. If they think they're gonna
run some "last chance gas!" on the highway-model or set up shop like
they're the only gas station in town, like EVs are just like ICE cars
except have a battery-tank instead of a gas tank, fat chance of that,
there are almost always other options, even a 120 volt wall socket
(albeit a rather slow one) and IMO people will always find other options
vs. getting screwed if they're available, except in a dire emergency.

Can't really do that with significant quantities of hydrocarbons in
tanks. By comparison the barriers to entry on a charging station is
relatively low. Parking lots and power lines are everywhere.

If a highway or remotely-located charging station starts getting quite
popular and trying to gouge then you can have Donnie's Discount Charging
up and running across the street in a lot less time than a competing gas
station. Or even in the same parking lot!


I think you have some fundamental misunderstandings of how charging works. The only time anyone would use chargers on a similar model to gas stations is when they are on long trips which require refueling in route or when they have no other options. In both those cases the chargers are infrequent enough to be "last chance gas!". But that is the exception for most people who charge either at home, at work or while eating/shopping.

If EV owners can charge at home, they will do that. If not, the next best option is to charge at work. Working in the city means you don't have a lot of time to walk or take a bus from the charger to work, so yes, if there is just one charger near work it, again, is "last chance gas!"

While shopping you have more options because you can choose where you shop. But there are relatively few options for that. I have found very few chargers of any sort near shopping.

The problem right now is there is no "last chance gas!" chargers and no "Donnie's Discount Charging" in most areas where people want to drive. That will change, but we'll see how fast. I don't believe the "free market" model will work well, a bit like color TV. The sets were expensive and there were only a few shows in color. No one wanted to buy sets because there were few shows and shows didn't want to pay for color production because there were few sets. Likewise, EV charging will require investment by someone with a bit more at stake.

Tesla has an adequate network for fast charging and not nearly enough "destination" chargers (level 2). There are a lot more non-Tesla level 2 chargers, but not nearly enough. As part of Volkswagen's penance they are paying for an extensive network of DC fast chargers. I hope they also provide a bunch of level 2 chargers. I'd like to see the big chains get into installing level 2 charging at all their stores like Costco. Who doesn't end up spending an hour or so at the big stores when they go out? Level 2 chargers can put the miles back on your car you used to get there and more.


Rick C.

-- Get 6 months of free supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:45 am   



On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:02:28 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
Quote:
On 01/30/2019 07:57 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to
facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a
ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set
pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and
$0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min.
That's legal highway robbery.

Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially
for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence
is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90%
State Of Charge (SOC).

Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:

SOC Amp KwHr MPH CPM (Cents Per Mile)
90 20 8 24 37 $9.03 gasoline
80 25 10 30 30
70 30 12 36 25 $6.05 gasoline
60 40 16 48 19
50 50 20 60 15 $3.75 gasoline
40 70 28 84 11 Tesla Supercharger
10 San Francisco Electricity
30 90 36 98 8 $2.00 gasoline
5 San Mateo Solar Electricity
4 Nevada Electricity
3 Arizona Electricity

We propose a charging fee of 5 cents per minute and 15 cents per
KiloWattHours. This will bring the cost equivalence close to $2/gal
to $3/gal.

SOC Amp KWH MPH $/gal
90 20 8 24 $3.00
80 25 10 30 $3.00
70 30 12 36 $2.00
60 40 16 48 $2.00
50 50 20 60 $2.00
40 70 28 84 $3.00
30 90 36 98 $4.00

What do you think?

Maybe the price is determined mostly by the cost of putting in a charger
and not the cost of the electricity.

George H.


It sounds like this is in San Francisco area, the price is determined by
the fact they figure everyone using an EV charger there is loaded anyway
and nobody really cares what car charging costs exactly


It's in central valley area, just using SF and SM as reference cost. "loaded" is a relative term.


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:45 am   



On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 7:57:26 PM UTC-5, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 4:49:31 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
On 01/30/2019 07:39 PM, edward.ming.lee_at_gmail.com wrote:

You know me I think the reason the market will work here is that the
potential gougers have the "model" wrong. If they think they're gonna
run some "last chance gas!" on the highway-model or set up shop like
they're the only gas station in town, like EVs are just like ICE cars
except have a battery-tank instead of a gas tank, fat chance of that,
there are almost always other options, even a 120 volt wall socket
(albeit a rather slow one) and IMO people will always find other options
vs. getting screwed if they're available, except in a dire emergency..

In the real world, it's not easy just asking for a plug-in. Several restaurants and stores refused, in fear of jumping their breakers.


Can't really do that with significant quantities of hydrocarbons in
tanks. By comparison the barriers to entry on a charging station is
relatively low. Parking lots and power lines are everywhere.

If a highway or remotely-located charging station starts getting quite
popular and trying to gouge then you can have Donnie's Discount Charging
up and running across the street in a lot less time than a competing gas
station. Or even in the same parking lot!

Facts remain that very often, $0.15/min ($9/gal) is the only option. I have to charge to 90% in order to get to the next station.

There are not enough Donnie around yet.


By setting the pricing that way EVGo seems to be implicitly saying to
people with Level 2 charging only "Sorry but we don't want your
business." I'd imagine the people setting the rates at corporate could
do that arithmetic as well and they is what they is, so...

Okay fair enough I'll take it elsewhere, I drive right by their
habitually unused charge stations around here, fortunately for me there
are other options and sorry it's not that way where you are yet,
hopefully soon.

It's for ChatDeMode fast charging. At 90% SOC, the current drop
to around 20A or around 8KW. Since it takes around 300 WattHour
per mile, 8000 Watts per hour is 133 watts per minute or
2.5 minutes per mile. At $0.15 per min, it's around $0.40
per mile. Gasoline costs around $0.13 per mile. So, Evgo
Charging is close to 3x or $9/gal gas.

Tesla and Bolt can charge cheaper. So, Leafs are subsiding them.


Ok, I am not used to anyone specifying amps on DC fast charging since the only significant number is the watts.

Please try to get your terminology correct. When you use it incorrectly it is not always obvious what the error is. Above you are mixing watts and watthours. When you say 8000 watts per hour, I think you mean 8000 kWh/h which is the same as 8000 watts, period. So that would be 133 Wh/min.

Here's what I get for your chart. It won't fit, but maybe you can view it somehow...

Per Min Per min Per kWh
$0.15 $0.05 $0.15
SoC Amps kW kWh Added Time Total Time Total Charge Cost per kWh Total Charge Cost per kWh Cost per mile
90% 20 8 2.4 18 18 $2.70 $1.13 $0.90 $0.53 $0.16
80% 25 10 4.8 14.4 32.4 $4.86 $1.01 $1.62 $0.49 $0.15
70% 30 12 7.2 12 44.4 $6.66 $0.93 $2.22 $0.46 $0.14
60% 40 16 9.6 9 53.4 $8.01 $0.83 $2.67 $0.43 $0.13
50% 50 20 12 7.2 60.6 $9.09 $0.76 $3.03 $0.40 $0.12
40% 70 28 14.4 5.1 65.7 $9.86 $0.68 $3.29 $0.38 $0.11
30% 90 36 16.8 4 69.7 $10.46 $0.62 $3.49 $0.36 $0.11



Rick C.

-+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Electronics Design - EV charging price

Ask a question - edaboard.com

Arabic version Bulgarian version Catalan version Czech version Danish version German version Greek version English version Spanish version Finnish version French version Hindi version Croatian version Indonesian version Italian version Hebrew version Japanese version Korean version Lithuanian version Latvian version Dutch version Norwegian version Polish version Portuguese version Romanian version Russian version Slovak version Slovenian version Serbian version Swedish version Tagalog version Ukrainian version Vietnamese version Chinese version Turkish version
EDAboard.com map