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David Brown
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:06 pm   



On 10/01/17 04:39, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
Quote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 10:15:09 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 06/01/17 02:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 18:20:54 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 05/01/2017 17:53, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 16:10:19 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 05/01/17 14:40, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 10:11:37 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:
On 04/01/17 23:39, Joerg wrote:

Even back in the 70's and 80's I can't remember the last time I used a
check over in Europe. The bank gave me a small book of checks but that
just sat in a locked drawer. After I moved to the US the bank gave me a
huge stack of checks and I was "WHAT??". It felt like a step back into
the days of the Ford Model T.

The last cheque I saw here in Norway was about a decade ago, when I got
one as a refund from a Danish company. I took it to our bank, and the
young women at the counter asked what it was. I explained, and she said
she had heard of cheques, but had no idea what to do with them as she
had never seen one before - she had to ask one of the older bank
employees to help. No one had cheque books here when I first moved to
Norway, about 25 years ago.

She should be fired. Exactly what is her job?

Fortunately, I live in Norway where people can't be fired by someone's
knee-jerk reaction. Would you fire an electronics designer if he were
shown a vacuum tube and he said he'd never seen one before - he'd have
to ask one of the old folks how to use it?

"Someone's knee-jerk reaction" <> gross incompetence. She doesn't
know her business and, worse, let the customer know that the bank was
incompentent.

What is she supposed to do when someone turns up with an antidiluvian
form of archaic paper payment that hasn't been seen in living memory?
All she *can* do is find some elderly employee who has seen one before
and knows what to do with it.

Excuse herself and discretely see her manager for instruction. My
wife worked in banks for twenty years. She would never show
incompetence to the customer. That's a *bit* no-no.

I know nothing about what passes for "customer service" in the USA, but
here in Norway, staff are expected to be honest, friendly, helpful, and
to talk to customers. You "excuse yourself and discretely see the
manager" if you think the customer is trying to do something illegal and
you don't want to let them know your suspicions. But in general, if one
staff member has to get help from another staff member, they will tell
you exactly why.

So, you just advertise that those entrusted with the customer's money
are incompetent. Great plan. No, you train people to do their jobs.
If there is something that's done so rarely that the line people can't
remember how to do it, the teller just discretely gets help. They do
*not* say "Gee I don't know. Why would anyone want to do that?"


Again, perhaps honesty and openness is something we are proud of in
Norway, but you hide away in the USA. Maybe the difference is that in
Norway, when you go to the bank and talk to a cashier it is first and
foremost one person talking to another person - it is /not/ primarily a
customer talking to a bank servant.

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:29 pm   



On 1/10/2017 5:06 AM, David Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 10/01/17 04:39, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 10:15:09 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 06/01/17 02:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 18:20:54 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 05/01/2017 17:53, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 16:10:19 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 05/01/17 14:40, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 10:11:37 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:
On 04/01/17 23:39, Joerg wrote:

Even back in the 70's and 80's I can't remember the last time I used a
check over in Europe. The bank gave me a small book of checks but that
just sat in a locked drawer. After I moved to the US the bank gave me a
huge stack of checks and I was "WHAT??". It felt like a step back into
the days of the Ford Model T.

The last cheque I saw here in Norway was about a decade ago, when I got
one as a refund from a Danish company. I took it to our bank, and the
young women at the counter asked what it was. I explained, and she said
she had heard of cheques, but had no idea what to do with them as she
had never seen one before - she had to ask one of the older bank
employees to help. No one had cheque books here when I first moved to
Norway, about 25 years ago.

She should be fired. Exactly what is her job?

Fortunately, I live in Norway where people can't be fired by someone's
knee-jerk reaction. Would you fire an electronics designer if he were
shown a vacuum tube and he said he'd never seen one before - he'd have
to ask one of the old folks how to use it?

"Someone's knee-jerk reaction" <> gross incompetence. She doesn't
know her business and, worse, let the customer know that the bank was
incompentent.

What is she supposed to do when someone turns up with an antidiluvian
form of archaic paper payment that hasn't been seen in living memory?
All she *can* do is find some elderly employee who has seen one before
and knows what to do with it.

Excuse herself and discretely see her manager for instruction. My
wife worked in banks for twenty years. She would never show
incompetence to the customer. That's a *bit* no-no.

I know nothing about what passes for "customer service" in the USA, but
here in Norway, staff are expected to be honest, friendly, helpful, and
to talk to customers. You "excuse yourself and discretely see the
manager" if you think the customer is trying to do something illegal and
you don't want to let them know your suspicions. But in general, if one
staff member has to get help from another staff member, they will tell
you exactly why.

So, you just advertise that those entrusted with the customer's money
are incompetent. Great plan. No, you train people to do their jobs.
If there is something that's done so rarely that the line people can't
remember how to do it, the teller just discretely gets help. They do
*not* say "Gee I don't know. Why would anyone want to do that?"


Again, perhaps honesty and openness is something we are proud of in
Norway, but you hide away in the USA. Maybe the difference is that in
Norway, when you go to the bank and talk to a cashier it is first and
foremost one person talking to another person - it is /not/ primarily a
customer talking to a bank servant.


Yeah, I hate the way larger businesses have gone to hiring bots rather
than people. I used to walk out my back door across my yard to visit
the bank where I could talk to the branch manager who could actually do
things like remove fees from my account (because I asked for it) or have
counter checks printed for free. Now I get none of that and to do
anything beyond opening an account requires a call to the same 800
number I call. The employees have been "trained" in how to talk to
customers and trying to get them to talk like people it hard. Getting
past to sales-speak to find answers to your questions is painful.

I'm sick of that part of US companies. But there isn't much I can do
about it. Companies respond to what customers accept. There are just
too many who aren't willing to reject this behavior because changing a
bank account is a PITA.

--

Rick C

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:39 pm   



On 1/10/2017 5:00 AM, David Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 10/01/17 02:00, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 6:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-09 14:43, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:03, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:30, rickman wrote:

[...]

Piece of cake. All they need is the account number, the routing number
and what to write into the comment line. The latter so that the
recipient knows which of their internal client accounts to credit the
amount to. This is how I pay the news server I am using.

I get tired if you only half way explaining things. *WHAT* is how you
pay the newserver?


The news server charges 10 Euros per year. That needs to be paid.

You really just can't even understand the question.


... If you are doing this through a US bank you are
using ACH transfers. Is that ok or not ok?


No, it's paid from a European account and, therefore, arrives instantly.

Ok, so the "what" is paying through an EU online billpay. You got the
newsserver company to give you their bank account number? Good luck
doing that here unless you are a credible company. Bank account numbers
are not given out so freely.

Yes, bank account numbers /are/ given out freely. Maybe that is a key
difference between the USA system and the European system.

When I get a bill, the bank account number for the recipient is written
on the bill. When a I pay it through my online banking (which is
/really/ online), I type in the bank account number for the recipient,
the amount due, and either an identifying comment or an identifying
number that the biller's accountancy software generated and printed on
the bill. (This number is used to let the accountancy software
automatically track which customers have paid.)

Using a bank account number as the identifier is vastly more efficient,
more convenient, less error-prone, and safer than using names and
addresses. Clearly I can only pay money /into/ the receiver's account -
I can't take money out, view their accounts, or anything else.

The same system is used whether I am paying a workman for fixing my
pipes, or the state for outstanding taxes, or the school class parents'
representative who is collecting for an end-of-term party.




You seem to be complaining this is not good enough. If not, then what
would be the mechanism for faster service.


A banking system like they have in Europe. That works.

Which you have no idea how it works.

I know that /I/ don't know how the banking system in Europe works. But
clearly, it /does/ work - and it does so far, far faster and more
conveniently than the American system. It is up to the American banks
to look at the European ones and learn how to improve - and up to
American bank customers to demand that they do so. It is not up to a
bunch of electronics engineers to understand the details of a completely
different industry.

Whether it is /possible/ to change the American bank system to work like
the European one, is a different matter.

Maybe it's like your health service. By any objective measurement
(money spent, treatment received, child mortality rates, fairness,
etc.), the American health system is abysmal in comparison to European
countries. Yet most Americans believe - as surely as they believe the
sun will rise tomorrow - that they have the world's best health care.
And the people involved in the health care "industry" (only in the USA
is it thought of as an "industry" for making money - elsewhere, it is a
"service" for helping the people) make vast amounts of money out of your
system. So there is no incentive to actually make the changes needed to
turn the system into a fair and efficient one. And since properly
changing it would involve a complete rebuild of the entire system, it
will probably never happen.

Trying to change the American banking system to work more like the
European ones might be possible, but it might also be /impossible/ to
copy it completely. Maybe it cannot be done where you have such an
overriding distrust in any sort of authority or institution.

(I don't mean to be anti-American here - this is just an example. There
are plenty of things wrong with the way things work in Europe, including
within the health services and banking industry, and plenty of things
that work better in the USA than over here.)


I think you are supporting my point. Joerg looks at the fact that he
gets faster transfers in Europe and thinks that should be possible here.
But that is not a given. I don't know what restrains the US banking
system regarding how they adopt technology. Joerg doesn't either.
Until you have *some* understanding of the system, how it works and what
limits it has, it is just BS to condemn it as being prehistoric.

There are tradeoffs to everything.


Quote:
Your link says nothing about how it is implemented other than referring
to "commercial and technical frameworks". Why don't you set up the
"commercial and technical frameworks" and we'll all use it?


Because I am an analog design engineer and are busy doing other things.
Designing electronics. All that is required would be American bank IT
guys visiting Europe and learning how it's done there. That's it.

Like so many in this group you think the problems of other businesses
are so easy to solve, even when you have very little understanding.


All he is saying is that European banking is much faster and more
efficient than American banking, and it should be possible to improve
banking in America if the bank people there were to look at the European
systems and learn from them. He has made no claims that this would be
an easy or fast change - merely that it should be possible.


He is saying that, but Joerg is saying much more using words like
steampunk, Flintstonian age and stage coach transport as well as
suggesting that the bank officers only need to "see how it is done in
Europe". He lives in ignorance of the systems he thinks should be
changed.

I share his frustration at not being able to even find anyone at the
bank to discuss this with. That's because of the bigger problems we
have with our companies these days, they "push" new things to us rather
than considering what we want. I literally can't find anyone to discuss
issues with at most companies.

--

Rick C

David Brown
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:16 pm   



On 10/01/17 11:29, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/10/2017 5:06 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 10/01/17 04:39, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 10:15:09 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 06/01/17 02:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 18:20:54 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 05/01/2017 17:53, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 16:10:19 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 05/01/17 14:40, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 10:11:37 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:
On 04/01/17 23:39, Joerg wrote:

Even back in the 70's and 80's I can't remember the last time
I used a
check over in Europe. The bank gave me a small book of checks
but that
just sat in a locked drawer. After I moved to the US the bank
gave me a
huge stack of checks and I was "WHAT??". It felt like a step
back into
the days of the Ford Model T.

The last cheque I saw here in Norway was about a decade ago,
when I got
one as a refund from a Danish company. I took it to our bank,
and the
young women at the counter asked what it was. I explained,
and she said
she had heard of cheques, but had no idea what to do with them
as she
had never seen one before - she had to ask one of the older bank
employees to help. No one had cheque books here when I first
moved to
Norway, about 25 years ago.

She should be fired. Exactly what is her job?

Fortunately, I live in Norway where people can't be fired by
someone's
knee-jerk reaction. Would you fire an electronics designer if
he were
shown a vacuum tube and he said he'd never seen one before -
he'd have
to ask one of the old folks how to use it?

"Someone's knee-jerk reaction" <> gross incompetence. She doesn't
know her business and, worse, let the customer know that the bank
was
incompentent.

What is she supposed to do when someone turns up with an antidiluvian
form of archaic paper payment that hasn't been seen in living memory?
All she *can* do is find some elderly employee who has seen one
before
and knows what to do with it.

Excuse herself and discretely see her manager for instruction. My
wife worked in banks for twenty years. She would never show
incompetence to the customer. That's a *bit* no-no.

I know nothing about what passes for "customer service" in the USA, but
here in Norway, staff are expected to be honest, friendly, helpful, and
to talk to customers. You "excuse yourself and discretely see the
manager" if you think the customer is trying to do something illegal
and
you don't want to let them know your suspicions. But in general, if
one
staff member has to get help from another staff member, they will tell
you exactly why.

So, you just advertise that those entrusted with the customer's money
are incompetent. Great plan. No, you train people to do their jobs.
If there is something that's done so rarely that the line people can't
remember how to do it, the teller just discretely gets help. They do
*not* say "Gee I don't know. Why would anyone want to do that?"


Again, perhaps honesty and openness is something we are proud of in
Norway, but you hide away in the USA. Maybe the difference is that in
Norway, when you go to the bank and talk to a cashier it is first and
foremost one person talking to another person - it is /not/ primarily a
customer talking to a bank servant.

Yeah, I hate the way larger businesses have gone to hiring bots rather
than people. I used to walk out my back door across my yard to visit
the bank where I could talk to the branch manager who could actually do
things like remove fees from my account (because I asked for it) or have
counter checks printed for free. Now I get none of that and to do
anything beyond opening an account requires a call to the same 800
number I call. The employees have been "trained" in how to talk to
customers and trying to get them to talk like people it hard. Getting
past to sales-speak to find answers to your questions is painful.

I'm sick of that part of US companies. But there isn't much I can do
about it. Companies respond to what customers accept. There are just
too many who aren't willing to reject this behavior because changing a
bank account is a PITA.


When people like KRW expect employees to act like automated servants
that are not allowed to think or interact like people, and whose primary
purpose is to make their employer look good, then I suppose that is the
kind of employees you get.

David Brown
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:37 pm   



On 10/01/17 11:39, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/10/2017 5:00 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 10/01/17 02:00, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 6:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-09 14:43, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:03, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:30, rickman wrote:

[...]

Piece of cake. All they need is the account number, the routing
number
and what to write into the comment line. The latter so that the
recipient knows which of their internal client accounts to credit the
amount to. This is how I pay the news server I am using.

I get tired if you only half way explaining things. *WHAT* is how you
pay the newserver?


The news server charges 10 Euros per year. That needs to be paid.

You really just can't even understand the question.


... If you are doing this through a US bank you are
using ACH transfers. Is that ok or not ok?


No, it's paid from a European account and, therefore, arrives
instantly.

Ok, so the "what" is paying through an EU online billpay. You got the
newsserver company to give you their bank account number? Good luck
doing that here unless you are a credible company. Bank account numbers
are not given out so freely.

Yes, bank account numbers /are/ given out freely. Maybe that is a key
difference between the USA system and the European system.

When I get a bill, the bank account number for the recipient is written
on the bill. When a I pay it through my online banking (which is
/really/ online), I type in the bank account number for the recipient,
the amount due, and either an identifying comment or an identifying
number that the biller's accountancy software generated and printed on
the bill. (This number is used to let the accountancy software
automatically track which customers have paid.)

Using a bank account number as the identifier is vastly more efficient,
more convenient, less error-prone, and safer than using names and
addresses. Clearly I can only pay money /into/ the receiver's account -
I can't take money out, view their accounts, or anything else.

The same system is used whether I am paying a workman for fixing my
pipes, or the state for outstanding taxes, or the school class parents'
representative who is collecting for an end-of-term party.




You seem to be complaining this is not good enough. If not, then what
would be the mechanism for faster service.


A banking system like they have in Europe. That works.

Which you have no idea how it works.

I know that /I/ don't know how the banking system in Europe works. But
clearly, it /does/ work - and it does so far, far faster and more
conveniently than the American system. It is up to the American banks
to look at the European ones and learn how to improve - and up to
American bank customers to demand that they do so. It is not up to a
bunch of electronics engineers to understand the details of a completely
different industry.

Whether it is /possible/ to change the American bank system to work like
the European one, is a different matter.

Maybe it's like your health service. By any objective measurement
(money spent, treatment received, child mortality rates, fairness,
etc.), the American health system is abysmal in comparison to European
countries. Yet most Americans believe - as surely as they believe the
sun will rise tomorrow - that they have the world's best health care.
And the people involved in the health care "industry" (only in the USA
is it thought of as an "industry" for making money - elsewhere, it is a
"service" for helping the people) make vast amounts of money out of your
system. So there is no incentive to actually make the changes needed to
turn the system into a fair and efficient one. And since properly
changing it would involve a complete rebuild of the entire system, it
will probably never happen.

Trying to change the American banking system to work more like the
European ones might be possible, but it might also be /impossible/ to
copy it completely. Maybe it cannot be done where you have such an
overriding distrust in any sort of authority or institution.

(I don't mean to be anti-American here - this is just an example. There
are plenty of things wrong with the way things work in Europe, including
within the health services and banking industry, and plenty of things
that work better in the USA than over here.)

I think you are supporting my point. Joerg looks at the fact that he
gets faster transfers in Europe and thinks that should be possible here.
But that is not a given. I don't know what restrains the US banking
system regarding how they adopt technology. Joerg doesn't either. Until
you have *some* understanding of the system, how it works and what
limits it has, it is just BS to condemn it as being prehistoric.


I would not say I am /supporting/ your point, but maybe I am slightly
more in the middle. I look at the European banking system and see that
transferring money takes seconds. I hear about the American banking
system and see that transferring money regularly takes days or even
weeks. (From my very limited experience from trying to get some money
to an American many years ago, the transfer also involved a fair number
of completely unpredictable transfer fees taken by a number of banks
along the way.)

I don't think it would be an easy matter to make American banks as good
and efficient as European ones. But I /do/ think there is enormous
scope for improvement, and that much of that should be possible by
/relatively/ simple means. And I do think the starting point would be
for American bankers to visit Europe, learn from them, and admit that
perhaps the American way is not actually the best way.

However, I don't think you will get as far as in Europe - at least, not
until you as a society learn that it's okay to trust your banks, and
it's okay to trust your government. I think the "winners" in the
American banking will be companies like Apple, Google, Facebook, or
Amazon - one or more of these will go into banking and let people pay
quickly and easily with small fees. And that will work, because for
some bizarre reason Americans are much happier to trust those companies
with all sorts of information than they are to trust established
authorities.


And yes, you /do/ have a banking system that is close to prehistoric.
As far as I can tell, it is more like we had some 40 or 50 years ago.

Quote:

There are tradeoffs to everything.


That's always true.

Quote:


Your link says nothing about how it is implemented other than
referring
to "commercial and technical frameworks". Why don't you set up the
"commercial and technical frameworks" and we'll all use it?


Because I am an analog design engineer and are busy doing other things.
Designing electronics. All that is required would be American bank IT
guys visiting Europe and learning how it's done there. That's it.

Like so many in this group you think the problems of other businesses
are so easy to solve, even when you have very little understanding.


All he is saying is that European banking is much faster and more
efficient than American banking, and it should be possible to improve
banking in America if the bank people there were to look at the European
systems and learn from them. He has made no claims that this would be
an easy or fast change - merely that it should be possible.

He is saying that, but Joerg is saying much more using words like
steampunk, Flintstonian age and stage coach transport as well as
suggesting that the bank officers only need to "see how it is done in
Europe". He lives in ignorance of the systems he thinks should be changed.


My understanding is that Joerg lived in Europe for decades, and then
moved to America (I don't know how long he has lived there). /I/ have
no personal experience with American banking, but Joerg has.

Quote:
I share his frustration at not being able to even find anyone at the
bank to discuss this with. That's because of the bigger problems we
have with our companies these days, they "push" new things to us rather
than considering what we want. I literally can't find anyone to discuss
issues with at most companies.


Joerg
Guest

Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:58 am   



On 2017-01-09 17:00, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 6:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-09 14:43, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:03, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:30, rickman wrote:

[...]


... For the US banks to
do it
another way means a new system would have to be set up. That
means
some
medium or mechanism would need to be created. Do you actually
know
how
the European banking system works?


Yes. I lived there for decades.

That doesn't mean you know diddly squat about how it actually works.
What is the medium for banks exchanging money there?

BTW, some banks have a facility to exchange money electronically in
the
US. But it still uses ACH transfers and requires you to have all
the
numbers for the other person's bank account. PNC has this, or at
least
had. I haven't used it in a long time.


These numbers are what the bank is supposed to exchange with any
company
that subscribes to that bank's bill pay. Then they have all that.
It's
that simple.

Ah! There is the problem. You seem to think that every bank connects
to every payee directly. That would be like the old bulletin board
systems where you had to dial in directly to each server you wanted to
communicate with.


Piece of cake. All they need is the account number, the routing number
and what to write into the comment line. The latter so that the
recipient knows which of their internal client accounts to credit the
amount to. This is how I pay the news server I am using.

I get tired if you only half way explaining things. *WHAT* is how you
pay the newserver?


The news server charges 10 Euros per year. That needs to be paid.

You really just can't even understand the question.


I explained how the newsserver company gets paid. Is it too difficult to
understand?

Quote:

... If you are doing this through a US bank you are
using ACH transfers. Is that ok or not ok?


No, it's paid from a European account and, therefore, arrives instantly.

Ok, so the "what" is paying through an EU online billpay. You got the
newsserver company to give you their bank account number? Good luck
doing that here unless you are a credible company. Bank account numbers
are not given out so freely.


ROFL. You are kidding, right? Pull out your check book and take a closer
peek. It normally looks like this:

1. On the top left there is your full name and address, for everyone on
the account.

2. On the bottom left there is the routing number for your bank.

3. On the bottom middle area there is ... <gasp> ... (quelle horreur!)
.... your account number.

4. Right above that is ... brace yourself, sit down before reading this
.... your signature.

_All_ that gets sent to any recipient your are paying via a check. In
fact, your are giving it out very freely all by yourself.

Any questions?


Quote:

You seem to be complaining this is not good enough. If not, then what
would be the mechanism for faster service.


A banking system like they have in Europe. That works.

Which you have no idea how it works.


Nonsense. I have given you the link to the SEPA method which they are
now all using.

Quote:

... That would be a HUGE amount of work on the part of
*each* and every bank to register each and every payee.


If I can do it in a matter of seconds and all Europeans do it in a
matter of seconds why is this such a "HUGE" amount of work for a US
bank?

You have *no idea* how they are doing it in the EU.


Baloney. I lived there for most of my live. You obviously haven't
because otherwise you'd know that as well. The fact that money transfers
arrive in minutes is simply that, a fact. Lasse and others here can
surely confirm that.

And yet you *still* can't tell us how it's done!


SEPA. That was simple. If you can't understand the first link I gave
here is another:

http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-transfer/iban-and-bic/


Quote:

The current US system has a central facility which registers payees
and
handles the payments. Since checking accounts already had the ACH for
all this, in the US they decided to use this for direct electronic
payments as well. I believe this decision was made almost 20 years
ago.
I know I was using online banking with direct ACH transfers around
2000.


If this clearing house system is so sluggish it's time to scrap it,
look
at why other countries do it better and then adopt their method.
This is
how Taiwan revamped their ailing health care system. They chose a
potpourri of solutions concocted after visiting a dozen countries.

You sound like the republicans and Obamacare, scrap it, without having
any idea of what to replace it with... except something "better".


No. I know there is something better and I have experienced it, lived
there.

Yes, I have tasted some very, very delicious food. But it's hard to ask
anyone else to fix it for me unless I have some idea of how it was made.


That is why chefs get hired. Anyone who has ever worked in a mangerial
function knows this. You do not have to know everything yourself but you
must be able to find out who does. And then tell your employee to learn
it from there.

The European money transfer system for consumers is much faster than
ours. It is thus better. It thus makes sense to send US bank IT folks
over there to learn it. Simple.

Quote:

You don't know how the system works in the EU. You just know you
don't
like the delays here. When you know enough to explain how to
improve it
I'll be happy to listen.


See above. You can also read it on the web.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

They already knew it way before, decades ago. Merchants that sold me
merchandise in Europe would simply have their account number and
routing
number on the invoice (it's usually on all their letters, in the footer
of the first page), I did an electronic transfer to that account, done.
Takes a few minutes, not days or weeks. That's how it's done right.

Your link says nothing about how it is implemented other than referring
to "commercial and technical frameworks". Why don't you set up the
"commercial and technical frameworks" and we'll all use it?


Because I am an analog design engineer and are busy doing other things.
Designing electronics. All that is required would be American bank IT
guys visiting Europe and learning how it's done there. That's it.

Like so many in this group you think the problems of other businesses
are so easy to solve, even when you have very little understanding.


It is easy to solve. I also know some of the reason why it isn't being
solved but that was divulged to me in confidence by someone with
internal know-how of the banking IT systems in the US (at one particular
bank) and cannot be disclosed here. What I heard almost made me sick.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg
Guest

Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:07 am   



On 2017-01-10 03:37, David Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 10/01/17 11:39, rickman wrote:
On 1/10/2017 5:00 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 10/01/17 02:00, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 6:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-09 14:43, rickman wrote:


[...]

Quote:
You seem to be complaining this is not good enough. If not, then what
would be the mechanism for faster service.


A banking system like they have in Europe. That works.

Which you have no idea how it works.

I know that /I/ don't know how the banking system in Europe works. But
clearly, it /does/ work - and it does so far, far faster and more
conveniently than the American system. It is up to the American banks
to look at the European ones and learn how to improve - and up to
American bank customers to demand that they do so. It is not up to a
bunch of electronics engineers to understand the details of a completely
different industry.

Whether it is /possible/ to change the American bank system to work like
the European one, is a different matter.

Maybe it's like your health service. By any objective measurement
(money spent, treatment received, child mortality rates, fairness,
etc.), the American health system is abysmal in comparison to European
countries. Yet most Americans believe - as surely as they believe the
sun will rise tomorrow - that they have the world's best health care.
And the people involved in the health care "industry" (only in the USA
is it thought of as an "industry" for making money - elsewhere, it is a
"service" for helping the people) make vast amounts of money out of your
system. So there is no incentive to actually make the changes needed to
turn the system into a fair and efficient one. And since properly
changing it would involve a complete rebuild of the entire system, it
will probably never happen.

Trying to change the American banking system to work more like the
European ones might be possible, but it might also be /impossible/ to
copy it completely. Maybe it cannot be done where you have such an
overriding distrust in any sort of authority or institution.

(I don't mean to be anti-American here - this is just an example. There
are plenty of things wrong with the way things work in Europe, including
within the health services and banking industry, and plenty of things
that work better in the USA than over here.)

I think you are supporting my point. Joerg looks at the fact that he
gets faster transfers in Europe and thinks that should be possible here.
But that is not a given. I don't know what restrains the US banking
system regarding how they adopt technology. Joerg doesn't either. Until
you have *some* understanding of the system, how it works and what
limits it has, it is just BS to condemn it as being prehistoric.

I would not say I am /supporting/ your point, but maybe I am slightly
more in the middle. I look at the European banking system and see that
transferring money takes seconds. I hear about the American banking
system and see that transferring money regularly takes days or even
weeks. (From my very limited experience from trying to get some money
to an American many years ago, the transfer also involved a fair number
of completely unpredictable transfer fees taken by a number of banks
along the way.)

I don't think it would be an easy matter to make American banks as good
and efficient as European ones. But I /do/ think there is enormous
scope for improvement, and that much of that should be possible by
/relatively/ simple means. And I do think the starting point would be
for American bankers to visit Europe, learn from them, and admit that
perhaps the American way is not actually the best way.


Afraid that's never going to happen because of NIH.


Quote:
However, I don't think you will get as far as in Europe - at least, not
until you as a society learn that it's okay to trust your banks, and
it's okay to trust your government. I think the "winners" in the
American banking will be companies like Apple, Google, Facebook, or
Amazon - one or more of these will go into banking and let people pay
quickly and easily with small fees. And that will work, because for
some bizarre reason Americans are much happier to trust those companies
with all sorts of information than they are to trust established
authorities.


And yes, you /do/ have a banking system that is close to prehistoric.
As far as I can tell, it is more like we had some 40 or 50 years ago.


When I got my first American credit card it had a stage coach roaring
through the night on it, with four horses. Very nice Wild-West seting.
In hindsight that was quite fitting for the "state-of-the-art" of our US
banking system.

Quote:

There are tradeoffs to everything.

That's always true.



Your link says nothing about how it is implemented other than
referring
to "commercial and technical frameworks". Why don't you set up the
"commercial and technical frameworks" and we'll all use it?


Because I am an analog design engineer and are busy doing other things.
Designing electronics. All that is required would be American bank IT
guys visiting Europe and learning how it's done there. That's it.

Like so many in this group you think the problems of other businesses
are so easy to solve, even when you have very little understanding.


All he is saying is that European banking is much faster and more
efficient than American banking, and it should be possible to improve
banking in America if the bank people there were to look at the European
systems and learn from them. He has made no claims that this would be
an easy or fast change - merely that it should be possible.

He is saying that, but Joerg is saying much more using words like
steampunk, Flintstonian age and stage coach transport as well as
suggesting that the bank officers only need to "see how it is done in
Europe". He lives in ignorance of the systems he thinks should be changed.


My understanding is that Joerg lived in Europe for decades, and then
moved to America (I don't know how long he has lived there). /I/ have
no personal experience with American banking, but Joerg has.


Oh yeah, and not necessarily positive ones. It was almost like stepping
out of a time machine and finding myself back in the 60's. However, they
did already have ATMs out here, and Edison electric light inside the
bank :-)

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg
Guest

Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:09 am   



On 2017-01-09 17:02, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 6:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-09 14:57, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 11:05 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:51, rickman wrote:

[...]


I know I have thought I set up transfers before, but it is a two step
process. You have to set it up, then a confirmation screen appears
which you must ok before it is sent. Then I get an acknowledgement
screen with a confirmation number. I now print that to a PDF both to
capture the confirmation number *and* to let me be sure I actually
clicked ok on the second screen.


Bill-Pay is different.

Actually it's not, I was describing bill pay. In the US we have wire
transfers which are fast, but they still charge significant fees for
using them. Then there are ACH transfers which take 2 days. That's all
we have.


And _that_ is what needs to change. Why are they not using the wire
system for such transfers? In Europe everything is wire since ...
forever. At least since I remember and I am not that young.

Wire transfers *are* available to you. What are you complaining about?


Have you ever looked at the fees for those?

Quote:

... Online bill pay using ACH transfers for those who are set up
to receive payments. Some banks allow you to enter a person's bank and
account numbers and pay directly.


What is so difficult in exchanging account and routing number
information with the entities who set up for Bill-Pay with a bank? Then
it would be blazingly fast like in Europe. Is this rocket science?

You can do all the wire transfers you want.


Yeah, if I was Rockefeller. And if I knew the account numbers of all the
recipients which in the US financial system is typically only disclosed
on checks and not on invoices. It should be.

Quote:

It is for places such as utilities where you send
money regularly. You set up a recipient and from then on you can simply
click and enter the amount you want to (or have to) pay. It only works
if the recipient is set up to do that with your bank. A confirmation
number is issued but it does not have to be ok'd, it is issued after
hitting the send button.

There is nothing unique to regular payments in US bill pay.


There should be. Else it's just a gimmick. But as I said at least it
save the postage which is about the only real advantage I see in it.

That makes no sense at all.


Not to you but to others.

Quote:

Now if they are set up with a bank one would assume that a fast channel
for money transfer has been established but, oh no, it still goes on
the
stage coach.

We all know what happens we you assume.

Europe is decades ahead of us in that respect. There you don't need
Bill-Pay or any of that. All you need is the account and routing number
for the utility or whatever, send the money, done. Gets there
immediately. No setting up anything.

Great! Now all we need to do is... what exactly?


Switch Bill-Pay to wire. Easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0

What's stopping you from switching?


See above.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

rickman
Guest

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:46 am   



On 1/10/2017 1:58 PM, Joerg wrote:
Quote:
On 2017-01-09 17:00, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 6:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-09 14:43, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:03, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:30, rickman wrote:

[...]


... For the US banks to
do it
another way means a new system would have to be set up. That
means
some
medium or mechanism would need to be created. Do you actually
know
how
the European banking system works?


Yes. I lived there for decades.

That doesn't mean you know diddly squat about how it actually
works.
What is the medium for banks exchanging money there?

BTW, some banks have a facility to exchange money electronically in
the
US. But it still uses ACH transfers and requires you to have all
the
numbers for the other person's bank account. PNC has this, or at
least
had. I haven't used it in a long time.


These numbers are what the bank is supposed to exchange with any
company
that subscribes to that bank's bill pay. Then they have all that.
It's
that simple.

Ah! There is the problem. You seem to think that every bank
connects
to every payee directly. That would be like the old bulletin board
systems where you had to dial in directly to each server you
wanted to
communicate with.


Piece of cake. All they need is the account number, the routing number
and what to write into the comment line. The latter so that the
recipient knows which of their internal client accounts to credit the
amount to. This is how I pay the news server I am using.

I get tired if you only half way explaining things. *WHAT* is how you
pay the newserver?


The news server charges 10 Euros per year. That needs to be paid.

You really just can't even understand the question.


I explained how the newsserver company gets paid. Is it too difficult to
understand?


There's the problem. You explained it as if you were explaining how a
car works by saying, "the wheels go around". You have no understanding
of how their system works. Is there a central coordinator or do all the
banks talk directly to one another through a given protocol? What are
the system costs and who pays them? Who is responsible when something
goes awry and who is responsible for investigating problems?

In other words, if this were a road system, who builds the roads for
these transactions, who is the cop and who is the court?


Quote:
... If you are doing this through a US bank you are
using ACH transfers. Is that ok or not ok?


No, it's paid from a European account and, therefore, arrives instantly.

Ok, so the "what" is paying through an EU online billpay. You got the
newsserver company to give you their bank account number? Good luck
doing that here unless you are a credible company. Bank account numbers
are not given out so freely.


ROFL. You are kidding, right? Pull out your check book and take a closer
peek. It normally looks like this:

1. On the top left there is your full name and address, for everyone on
the account.

2. On the bottom left there is the routing number for your bank.

3. On the bottom middle area there is ... <gasp> ... (quelle horreur!)
.... your account number.

4. Right above that is ... brace yourself, sit down before reading this
.... your signature.

_All_ that gets sent to any recipient your are paying via a check. In
fact, your are giving it out very freely all by yourself.

Any questions?



You seem to be complaining this is not good enough. If not, then what
would be the mechanism for faster service.


A banking system like they have in Europe. That works.

Which you have no idea how it works.


Nonsense. I have given you the link to the SEPA method which they are
now all using.


You mean the wiki page with gives very little info. I hope you get more
info than this when looking at new work.


Quote:
... That would be a HUGE amount of work on the part of
*each* and every bank to register each and every payee.


If I can do it in a matter of seconds and all Europeans do it in a
matter of seconds why is this such a "HUGE" amount of work for a US
bank?

You have *no idea* how they are doing it in the EU.


Baloney. I lived there for most of my live. You obviously haven't
because otherwise you'd know that as well. The fact that money transfers
arrive in minutes is simply that, a fact. Lasse and others here can
surely confirm that.

And yet you *still* can't tell us how it's done!


SEPA. That was simple. If you can't understand the first link I gave
here is another:

http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-transfer/iban-and-bic/


I don't see anything about the details. It just says the IBAN is your
best friend.


Quote:
The current US system has a central facility which registers payees
and
handles the payments. Since checking accounts already had the ACH
for
all this, in the US they decided to use this for direct electronic
payments as well. I believe this decision was made almost 20 years
ago.
I know I was using online banking with direct ACH transfers around
2000.


If this clearing house system is so sluggish it's time to scrap it,
look
at why other countries do it better and then adopt their method.
This is
how Taiwan revamped their ailing health care system. They chose a
potpourri of solutions concocted after visiting a dozen countries.

You sound like the republicans and Obamacare, scrap it, without having
any idea of what to replace it with... except something "better".


No. I know there is something better and I have experienced it, lived
there.

Yes, I have tasted some very, very delicious food. But it's hard to ask
anyone else to fix it for me unless I have some idea of how it was made.


That is why chefs get hired. Anyone who has ever worked in a mangerial
function knows this. You do not have to know everything yourself but you
must be able to find out who does. And then tell your employee to learn
it from there.

The European money transfer system for consumers is much faster than
ours. It is thus better. It thus makes sense to send US bank IT folks
over there to learn it. Simple.


But how does it work? How do you know we can even use the same system
here? Banks are governed by laws. I seem to recall reading one of your
links that referred to legislation that was passed to allow this in
Europe. Do you know this would be possible here?


Quote:
You don't know how the system works in the EU. You just know you
don't
like the delays here. When you know enough to explain how to
improve it
I'll be happy to listen.


See above. You can also read it on the web.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

They already knew it way before, decades ago. Merchants that sold me
merchandise in Europe would simply have their account number and
routing
number on the invoice (it's usually on all their letters, in the
footer
of the first page), I did an electronic transfer to that account,
done.
Takes a few minutes, not days or weeks. That's how it's done right.

Your link says nothing about how it is implemented other than referring
to "commercial and technical frameworks". Why don't you set up the
"commercial and technical frameworks" and we'll all use it?


Because I am an analog design engineer and are busy doing other things.
Designing electronics. All that is required would be American bank IT
guys visiting Europe and learning how it's done there. That's it.

Like so many in this group you think the problems of other businesses
are so easy to solve, even when you have very little understanding.


It is easy to solve. I also know some of the reason why it isn't being
solved but that was divulged to me in confidence by someone with
internal know-how of the banking IT systems in the US (at one particular
bank) and cannot be disclosed here. What I heard almost made me sick.


Of course, Fermet's last theorem. We need to get you a book with larger
margins. If you are talking about profits, yes, I expect that is no
small part of it. They have a system that works and they make money on
it. Just like the nuke industry, they have no incentive to change to a
better system because they would make less money. Perhaps the same is
true for the banks.

--

Rick C

rickman
Guest

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:52 am   



There is something rotten with Joerg's billpay. I just paid my monthly
bills and at 7:45 PM every payee that didn't get paid by check (my HOA
and my ISP, a one man shop) had the option of payment by TOMORROW or the
next day... every single one of them.

Yes, we are clearly living in the age of stagecoaches.

I think Joerg needs a new bank. The one he has can't even tell him the
status of the payments he makes.

--

Rick C

Martin Brown
Guest

Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:19 pm   



On 07/01/2017 03:27, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
Quote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 13:59:26 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 06/01/2017 11:12, rickman wrote:
On 1/6/2017 4:50 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/01/2017 18:21, rickman wrote:
On 1/5/2017 12:19 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/01/2017 12:00, rickman wrote:

I sent myself a check from one bank to deposit in my account in
another
bank. They wouldn't accept it as a "non-locally generated check".
They

Why would you do that? Online banking is so much easier.
Not sure what you mean by "non-locally generated cheque".

I wanted to move the money. How else would I do it? This *was* online
banking.

What?

I didn't know what a "non-locally generated check" was either. It's one
that *I* didn't write myself. In other words, a check I sent through
online banking.

There are no cheques in "online banking". It is a purely electronic
transaction bank to bank that takes minutes (worst case 3 hours).

I've already explained how it works here. They use ACH transfers (same
as used by ATM machines) for transfers to registered entities such as
utilities, CC companies and other businesses. When paying smaller
entities who are not registered including individuals, the bank, or more
accurately, the online banking provider cuts a check and puts it in the
mail.

Your explanation was so unbelievable that even now I have trouble
accepting that "online banking" transfers in the USA mostly involve
printing out pieces of paper and mailing them to the recipient!

WTF can't the bank at least scan the thing and act on the scan (since
KRW at least claims that US banks can cope with scans of cheques).

Registered businesses can deposit checks by scanning them and
individuals can deposit check by scanning (or taking a picture of)
them. I don't believe I can send money to your account without a
paper check, which you can then scan. There are *expensive* ways of
doing this but it's outside of the normal banking networks.


Why does the receiving bank care whether the cheque is mailed to you and
you scan it or it is "scanned" by the bunch of lazy cowboys running this
so called US electronic funds transfer system with paper cheques?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown
Guest

Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:29 pm   



On 07/01/2017 03:39, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
Quote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 06:51:04 -0500, rickman <gnuarm_at_gmail.com> wrote:

On 1/6/2017 6:43 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 06/01/2017 11:14, rickman wrote:
On 1/6/2017 4:58 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

The same situation arises in the UK with bank books on very old legacy
accounts - only a handful of the staff know know to set up and operate
the archaic hardware that updates the books with the new balance. Such
accounts are almost extinct as their owners are typically in their 90's.

How many remember how to count the old currencies? How many shilling in
a crown?

5 pre 1990 (25p) and 100 post 1990 (5). Collectors items though.

I can just about recall how to do computations in archaic British units
ton, cwt, quarters, st, lb, oz, dram too as taught at primary school.

An old crown used to be colloquially called a dollar (or rather half a
crown was half a dollar) back when the GBP/USD ratio was 4:1.

I was once fined a groat = 1/3 old shilling or 4d at university.
An amount impossible to pay exactly in the decimal era.

You could always write a cheque using the fraction... I wonder what the
bank would do with that?


Return it uncleared.

> Try writing a check for $0.00 and see what happens. ;-)

In the UK new build homes have sometimes had their gas supply cut off
for non-payment of such bills as the cheque for 0 invariably bounces.

http://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/news/pay-your-163-0-00-gas-bill-or-be-cut-off-1-3238

Not the weirdest one by a long way but the first hit I found.
Their systems have improved a bit after much ridicule!
nPower is now the butt of most bad billing jokes.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown


Guest

Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:01 am   



On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 10:19:39 +0000, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:
On 07/01/2017 03:27, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 13:59:26 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 06/01/2017 11:12, rickman wrote:
On 1/6/2017 4:50 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/01/2017 18:21, rickman wrote:
On 1/5/2017 12:19 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/01/2017 12:00, rickman wrote:

I sent myself a check from one bank to deposit in my account in
another
bank. They wouldn't accept it as a "non-locally generated check".
They

Why would you do that? Online banking is so much easier.
Not sure what you mean by "non-locally generated cheque".

I wanted to move the money. How else would I do it? This *was* online
banking.

What?

I didn't know what a "non-locally generated check" was either. It's one
that *I* didn't write myself. In other words, a check I sent through
online banking.

There are no cheques in "online banking". It is a purely electronic
transaction bank to bank that takes minutes (worst case 3 hours).

I've already explained how it works here. They use ACH transfers (same
as used by ATM machines) for transfers to registered entities such as
utilities, CC companies and other businesses. When paying smaller
entities who are not registered including individuals, the bank, or more
accurately, the online banking provider cuts a check and puts it in the
mail.

Your explanation was so unbelievable that even now I have trouble
accepting that "online banking" transfers in the USA mostly involve
printing out pieces of paper and mailing them to the recipient!

WTF can't the bank at least scan the thing and act on the scan (since
KRW at least claims that US banks can cope with scans of cheques).

Registered businesses can deposit checks by scanning them and
individuals can deposit check by scanning (or taking a picture of)
them. I don't believe I can send money to your account without a
paper check, which you can then scan. There are *expensive* ways of
doing this but it's outside of the normal banking networks.

Why does the receiving bank care whether the cheque is mailed to you and
you scan it or it is "scanned" by the bunch of lazy cowboys running this
so called US electronic funds transfer system with paper cheques?


That's easy. I am not authorized to receive ACH transfers.

Martin Brown
Guest

Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:41 pm   



On 13/01/2017 01:01, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 10:19:39 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 07/01/2017 03:27, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 13:59:26 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 06/01/2017 11:12, rickman wrote:
On 1/6/2017 4:50 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/01/2017 18:21, rickman wrote:
On 1/5/2017 12:19 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/01/2017 12:00, rickman wrote:

I sent myself a check from one bank to deposit in my account in
another
bank. They wouldn't accept it as a "non-locally generated check".
They

Why would you do that? Online banking is so much easier.
Not sure what you mean by "non-locally generated cheque".

I wanted to move the money. How else would I do it? This *was* online
banking.

What?

I didn't know what a "non-locally generated check" was either. It's one
that *I* didn't write myself. In other words, a check I sent through
online banking.

There are no cheques in "online banking". It is a purely electronic
transaction bank to bank that takes minutes (worst case 3 hours).

I've already explained how it works here. They use ACH transfers (same
as used by ATM machines) for transfers to registered entities such as
utilities, CC companies and other businesses. When paying smaller
entities who are not registered including individuals, the bank, or more
accurately, the online banking provider cuts a check and puts it in the
mail.

Your explanation was so unbelievable that even now I have trouble
accepting that "online banking" transfers in the USA mostly involve
printing out pieces of paper and mailing them to the recipient!

WTF can't the bank at least scan the thing and act on the scan (since
KRW at least claims that US banks can cope with scans of cheques).

Registered businesses can deposit checks by scanning them and
individuals can deposit check by scanning (or taking a picture of)
them. I don't believe I can send money to your account without a
paper check, which you can then scan. There are *expensive* ways of
doing this but it's outside of the normal banking networks.

Why does the receiving bank care whether the cheque is mailed to you and
you scan it or it is "scanned" by the bunch of lazy cowboys running this
so called US electronic funds transfer system with paper cheques?

That's easy. I am not authorized to receive ACH transfers.


Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes here.

It is very hard to comprehend a banking system where genuine electronic
payments to personal bank accounts are impossible.

What is the difference between you scanning a cheque and emailing it to
your bank and a third party scanning it and emailing it to your bank.
Either way they get an image of a cheque made out to you and to be paid
into your account but in the latter case the physical paper doesn't have
to be physically posted in the mail to you. What is not to like?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown


Guest

Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:30 am   



On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 09:41:30 +0000, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:
On 13/01/2017 01:01, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 10:19:39 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 07/01/2017 03:27, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 13:59:26 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 06/01/2017 11:12, rickman wrote:
On 1/6/2017 4:50 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/01/2017 18:21, rickman wrote:
On 1/5/2017 12:19 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/01/2017 12:00, rickman wrote:

I sent myself a check from one bank to deposit in my account in
another
bank. They wouldn't accept it as a "non-locally generated check".
They

Why would you do that? Online banking is so much easier.
Not sure what you mean by "non-locally generated cheque".

I wanted to move the money. How else would I do it? This *was* online
banking.

What?

I didn't know what a "non-locally generated check" was either. It's one
that *I* didn't write myself. In other words, a check I sent through
online banking.

There are no cheques in "online banking". It is a purely electronic
transaction bank to bank that takes minutes (worst case 3 hours).

I've already explained how it works here. They use ACH transfers (same
as used by ATM machines) for transfers to registered entities such as
utilities, CC companies and other businesses. When paying smaller
entities who are not registered including individuals, the bank, or more
accurately, the online banking provider cuts a check and puts it in the
mail.

Your explanation was so unbelievable that even now I have trouble
accepting that "online banking" transfers in the USA mostly involve
printing out pieces of paper and mailing them to the recipient!

WTF can't the bank at least scan the thing and act on the scan (since
KRW at least claims that US banks can cope with scans of cheques).

Registered businesses can deposit checks by scanning them and
individuals can deposit check by scanning (or taking a picture of)
them. I don't believe I can send money to your account without a
paper check, which you can then scan. There are *expensive* ways of
doing this but it's outside of the normal banking networks.

Why does the receiving bank care whether the cheque is mailed to you and
you scan it or it is "scanned" by the bunch of lazy cowboys running this
so called US electronic funds transfer system with paper cheques?

That's easy. I am not authorized to receive ACH transfers.

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes here.


Probably.
Quote:

It is very hard to comprehend a banking system where genuine electronic
payments to personal bank accounts are impossible.


Sure it's possible. From an individual to an individual, it's (very)
expensive, though. If you give me a paper check, I can deposit it
electronically without charge, though (subsidized by my bank, of
course).

Quote:
What is the difference between you scanning a cheque and emailing it to
your bank and a third party scanning it and emailing it to your bank.


It's not emailed. It's a secured transaction between me and my bank.

Quote:
Either way they get an image of a cheque made out to you and to be paid
into your account but in the latter case the physical paper doesn't have
to be physically posted in the mail to you. What is not to like?


Security.

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