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Joerg
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:49 am   



On 2017-01-09 14:33, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date"
next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here,
banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not
going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM
that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at
the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the
same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data,
plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are
you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi. Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as
legit.

An rpi has a camera. Running android it has access to all the same apps
that run on a phone.


So does the Android box on our TV. It also has an Internet connection,
USB ports and camera.


Quote:
What part is missing?


<sigh>

I repeat it for the last time: _How_ does the pic get to the bank so
they will _accept_ it? Some educational material for you:

https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/mobile-check-deposit.go

Quote: "Data connection required. Wireless carrier fees may apply"

I asked the bank whether I can use the Android TV box to scan, run the
app and transfer the image via Internet instead of a cell carrier
network. The answer was no.

Now how is a smart phone without a data plan but on WiFi different from
an Android TV box on WiFi or LAN?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:53 am   



On 2017-01-09 14:42, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Quote:
Den mandag den 9. januar 2017 kl. 23.33.48 UTC+1 skrev rickman:
On 1/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date"
next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here,
banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM
that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data, plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi. Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as legit.

An rpi has a camera. Running android it has access to all the same apps
that run on a phone. What part is missing?

the phone part

I know here there is lot of stuff that is easier to do on a phone than
any other device I guess because the phone is considered a more secure
device, being tied to a serial number, phone number, subscription and
running signed apps


I am also quite sure the bank wants to know where that transmission
originated. A check scan sent from an account with dynamic IP (which
most high-speed accounts out here are) obviously isn't going to fly.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:57 am   



On 1/9/2017 11:05 AM, Joerg wrote:
Quote:
On 2017-01-08 17:51, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:05, rickman wrote:

[...]

... I assume you actually
sent the money to yourself via the paypal account? Or did you send it
to another party via paypal?


From my own bank account to my own Paypal account, to fill it up with
funds for a purchase. That doesn't seem too difficult a process. Well, I
guess for banks it is difficult.


BTW, is five days ago, Thursday or Wednesday? Weekends don't count to
banks.


IIRC I initiated it last weekend. A computer at a bank is not supposed
to take weekends off. Certainly not a whole week.

I'd say it's time for a new bank. If you set up a transaction and have
the confirmation number and they just shrug their shoulders, there's a
problem with accountability. Are you going to stay with a bank that
can't tell you what is going on with your money? That's pretty much
rule 1 with banking, always know where the money is and what's happening
to it.


I have asked friends and they said it's similar with their banks around
here, that this newfangled "electronic" method isn't all what it's
cracked up to be. More like a gimmick. Well, at least it saves the postage.


I know I have thought I set up transfers before, but it is a two step
process. You have to set it up, then a confirmation screen appears
which you must ok before it is sent. Then I get an acknowledgement
screen with a confirmation number. I now print that to a PDF both to
capture the confirmation number *and* to let me be sure I actually
clicked ok on the second screen.


Bill-Pay is different.


Actually it's not, I was describing bill pay. In the US we have wire
transfers which are fast, but they still charge significant fees for
using them. Then there are ACH transfers which take 2 days. That's all
we have. Online bill pay using ACH transfers for those who are set up
to receive payments. Some banks allow you to enter a person's bank and
account numbers and pay directly.


Quote:
It is for places such as utilities where you send
money regularly. You set up a recipient and from then on you can simply
click and enter the amount you want to (or have to) pay. It only works
if the recipient is set up to do that with your bank. A confirmation
number is issued but it does not have to be ok'd, it is issued after
hitting the send button.


There is nothing unique to regular payments in US bill pay.


Quote:
Now if they are set up with a bank one would assume that a fast channel
for money transfer has been established but, oh no, it still goes on the
stage coach.


We all know what happens we you assume.

Quote:
Europe is decades ahead of us in that respect. There you don't need
Bill-Pay or any of that. All you need is the account and routing number
for the utility or whatever, send the money, done. Gets there
immediately. No setting up anything.


Great! Now all we need to do is... what exactly?

--

Rick C

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:59 am   



On 1/9/2017 5:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
Quote:
On 2017-01-09 14:33, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date"
next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here,
banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But
hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit
checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not
going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM
that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at
the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the
same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data,
plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are
you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this
to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi.
Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can
send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as
legit.

An rpi has a camera. Running android it has access to all the same apps
that run on a phone.


So does the Android box on our TV. It also has an Internet connection,
USB ports and camera.


What part is missing?


sigh

I repeat it for the last time: _How_ does the pic get to the bank so
they will _accept_ it? Some educational material for you:

https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/mobile-check-deposit.go

Quote: "Data connection required. Wireless carrier fees may apply"

I asked the bank whether I can use the Android TV box to scan, run the
app and transfer the image via Internet instead of a cell carrier
network. The answer was no.

Now how is a smart phone without a data plan but on WiFi different from
an Android TV box on WiFi or LAN?


Why don't you read your own references...?

"The Mobile Banking app is available on iPad, iPhone, Android"
^^^^^^^

--

Rick C

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:01 am   



On 1/9/2017 5:42 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Quote:
Den mandag den 9. januar 2017 kl. 23.33.48 UTC+1 skrev rickman:
On 1/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date"
next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here,
banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM
that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data, plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi. Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as legit.

An rpi has a camera. Running android it has access to all the same apps
that run on a phone. What part is missing?

the phone part

I know here there is lot of stuff that is easier to do on a phone than
any other device I guess because the phone is considered a more secure
device, being tied to a serial number, phone number, subscription and
running signed apps


The security of burner phones??? I guess that's why the drug guys use
them, they like the security.

--

Rick C

Joerg
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:03 am   



On 2017-01-09 14:43, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:03, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:30, rickman wrote:


[...]

Quote:

... For the US banks to
do it
another way means a new system would have to be set up. That means
some
medium or mechanism would need to be created. Do you actually know
how
the European banking system works?


Yes. I lived there for decades.

That doesn't mean you know diddly squat about how it actually works.
What is the medium for banks exchanging money there?

BTW, some banks have a facility to exchange money electronically in
the
US. But it still uses ACH transfers and requires you to have all the
numbers for the other person's bank account. PNC has this, or at
least
had. I haven't used it in a long time.


These numbers are what the bank is supposed to exchange with any
company
that subscribes to that bank's bill pay. Then they have all that. It's
that simple.

Ah! There is the problem. You seem to think that every bank connects
to every payee directly. That would be like the old bulletin board
systems where you had to dial in directly to each server you wanted to
communicate with.


Piece of cake. All they need is the account number, the routing number
and what to write into the comment line. The latter so that the
recipient knows which of their internal client accounts to credit the
amount to. This is how I pay the news server I am using.

I get tired if you only half way explaining things. *WHAT* is how you
pay the newserver?


The news server charges 10 Euros per year. That needs to be paid.


Quote:
... If you are doing this through a US bank you are
using ACH transfers. Is that ok or not ok?


No, it's paid from a European account and, therefore, arrives instantly.


Quote:
You seem to be complaining this is not good enough. If not, then what
would be the mechanism for faster service.


A banking system like they have in Europe. That works.


Quote:

... That would be a HUGE amount of work on the part of
*each* and every bank to register each and every payee.


If I can do it in a matter of seconds and all Europeans do it in a
matter of seconds why is this such a "HUGE" amount of work for a US bank?

You have *no idea* how they are doing it in the EU.


Baloney. I lived there for most of my live. You obviously haven't
because otherwise you'd know that as well. The fact that money transfers
arrive in minutes is simply that, a fact. Lasse and others here can
surely confirm that.

Quote:

The current US system has a central facility which registers payees and
handles the payments. Since checking accounts already had the ACH for
all this, in the US they decided to use this for direct electronic
payments as well. I believe this decision was made almost 20 years ago.
I know I was using online banking with direct ACH transfers around
2000.


If this clearing house system is so sluggish it's time to scrap it, look
at why other countries do it better and then adopt their method. This is
how Taiwan revamped their ailing health care system. They chose a
potpourri of solutions concocted after visiting a dozen countries.

You sound like the republicans and Obamacare, scrap it, without having
any idea of what to replace it with... except something "better".


No. I know there is something better and I have experienced it, lived there.

Quote:

You don't know how the system works in the EU. You just know you don't
like the delays here. When you know enough to explain how to improve it
I'll be happy to listen.


See above. You can also read it on the web.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

They already knew it way before, decades ago. Merchants that sold me
merchandise in Europe would simply have their account number and routing
number on the invoice (it's usually on all their letters, in the footer
of the first page), I did an electronic transfer to that account, done.
Takes a few minutes, not days or weeks. That's how it's done right.

Your link says nothing about how it is implemented other than referring
to "commercial and technical frameworks". Why don't you set up the
"commercial and technical frameworks" and we'll all use it?


Because I am an analog design engineer and are busy doing other things.
Designing electronics. All that is required would be American bank IT
guys visiting Europe and learning how it's done there. That's it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:13 am   



On 2017-01-09 14:57, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 11:05 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:51, rickman wrote:


[...]


Quote:
I know I have thought I set up transfers before, but it is a two step
process. You have to set it up, then a confirmation screen appears
which you must ok before it is sent. Then I get an acknowledgement
screen with a confirmation number. I now print that to a PDF both to
capture the confirmation number *and* to let me be sure I actually
clicked ok on the second screen.


Bill-Pay is different.

Actually it's not, I was describing bill pay. In the US we have wire
transfers which are fast, but they still charge significant fees for
using them. Then there are ACH transfers which take 2 days. That's all
we have.


And _that_ is what needs to change. Why are they not using the wire
system for such transfers? In Europe everything is wire since ...
forever. At least since I remember and I am not that young.


Quote:
... Online bill pay using ACH transfers for those who are set up
to receive payments. Some banks allow you to enter a person's bank and
account numbers and pay directly.


What is so difficult in exchanging account and routing number
information with the entities who set up for Bill-Pay with a bank? Then
it would be blazingly fast like in Europe. Is this rocket science?

Quote:

It is for places such as utilities where you send
money regularly. You set up a recipient and from then on you can simply
click and enter the amount you want to (or have to) pay. It only works
if the recipient is set up to do that with your bank. A confirmation
number is issued but it does not have to be ok'd, it is issued after
hitting the send button.

There is nothing unique to regular payments in US bill pay.


There should be. Else it's just a gimmick. But as I said at least it
save the postage which is about the only real advantage I see in it.

Quote:

Now if they are set up with a bank one would assume that a fast channel
for money transfer has been established but, oh no, it still goes on the
stage coach.

We all know what happens we you assume.

Europe is decades ahead of us in that respect. There you don't need
Bill-Pay or any of that. All you need is the account and routing number
for the utility or whatever, send the money, done. Gets there
immediately. No setting up anything.

Great! Now all we need to do is... what exactly?


Switch Bill-Pay to wire. Easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:14 am   



On 2017-01-09 14:59, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 5:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-09 14:33, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date"
next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here,
banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But
hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit
checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via
computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not
going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM
that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at
the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the
same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data,
plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are
you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this
to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi.
Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can
send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell
phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as
legit.

An rpi has a camera. Running android it has access to all the same apps
that run on a phone.


So does the Android box on our TV. It also has an Internet connection,
USB ports and camera.


What part is missing?


sigh

I repeat it for the last time: _How_ does the pic get to the bank so
they will _accept_ it? Some educational material for you:

https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/mobile-check-deposit.go

Quote: "Data connection required. Wireless carrier fees may apply"

I asked the bank whether I can use the Android TV box to scan, run the
app and transfer the image via Internet instead of a cell carrier
network. The answer was no.

Now how is a smart phone without a data plan but on WiFi different from
an Android TV box on WiFi or LAN?

Why don't you read your own references...?

"The Mobile Banking app is available on iPad, iPhone, Android"
^^^^^^^


_Not_ on untethered devices on Wifi or LAN such as Android TV boxes.
They told us so.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:00 am   



On 1/9/2017 6:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
Quote:
On 2017-01-09 14:43, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:03, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:30, rickman wrote:

[...]


... For the US banks to
do it
another way means a new system would have to be set up. That means
some
medium or mechanism would need to be created. Do you actually know
how
the European banking system works?


Yes. I lived there for decades.

That doesn't mean you know diddly squat about how it actually works.
What is the medium for banks exchanging money there?

BTW, some banks have a facility to exchange money electronically in
the
US. But it still uses ACH transfers and requires you to have all the
numbers for the other person's bank account. PNC has this, or at
least
had. I haven't used it in a long time.


These numbers are what the bank is supposed to exchange with any
company
that subscribes to that bank's bill pay. Then they have all that. It's
that simple.

Ah! There is the problem. You seem to think that every bank connects
to every payee directly. That would be like the old bulletin board
systems where you had to dial in directly to each server you wanted to
communicate with.


Piece of cake. All they need is the account number, the routing number
and what to write into the comment line. The latter so that the
recipient knows which of their internal client accounts to credit the
amount to. This is how I pay the news server I am using.

I get tired if you only half way explaining things. *WHAT* is how you
pay the newserver?


The news server charges 10 Euros per year. That needs to be paid.


You really just can't even understand the question.


Quote:
... If you are doing this through a US bank you are
using ACH transfers. Is that ok or not ok?


No, it's paid from a European account and, therefore, arrives instantly.


Ok, so the "what" is paying through an EU online billpay. You got the
newsserver company to give you their bank account number? Good luck
doing that here unless you are a credible company. Bank account numbers
are not given out so freely.


Quote:
You seem to be complaining this is not good enough. If not, then what
would be the mechanism for faster service.


A banking system like they have in Europe. That works.


Which you have no idea how it works.


Quote:
... That would be a HUGE amount of work on the part of
*each* and every bank to register each and every payee.


If I can do it in a matter of seconds and all Europeans do it in a
matter of seconds why is this such a "HUGE" amount of work for a US
bank?

You have *no idea* how they are doing it in the EU.


Baloney. I lived there for most of my live. You obviously haven't
because otherwise you'd know that as well. The fact that money transfers
arrive in minutes is simply that, a fact. Lasse and others here can
surely confirm that.


And yet you *still* can't tell us how it's done!


Quote:
The current US system has a central facility which registers payees and
handles the payments. Since checking accounts already had the ACH for
all this, in the US they decided to use this for direct electronic
payments as well. I believe this decision was made almost 20 years
ago.
I know I was using online banking with direct ACH transfers around
2000.


If this clearing house system is so sluggish it's time to scrap it, look
at why other countries do it better and then adopt their method. This is
how Taiwan revamped their ailing health care system. They chose a
potpourri of solutions concocted after visiting a dozen countries.

You sound like the republicans and Obamacare, scrap it, without having
any idea of what to replace it with... except something "better".


No. I know there is something better and I have experienced it, lived
there.


Yes, I have tasted some very, very delicious food. But it's hard to ask
anyone else to fix it for me unless I have some idea of how it was made.


Quote:
You don't know how the system works in the EU. You just know you don't
like the delays here. When you know enough to explain how to
improve it
I'll be happy to listen.


See above. You can also read it on the web.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

They already knew it way before, decades ago. Merchants that sold me
merchandise in Europe would simply have their account number and routing
number on the invoice (it's usually on all their letters, in the footer
of the first page), I did an electronic transfer to that account, done.
Takes a few minutes, not days or weeks. That's how it's done right.

Your link says nothing about how it is implemented other than referring
to "commercial and technical frameworks". Why don't you set up the
"commercial and technical frameworks" and we'll all use it?


Because I am an analog design engineer and are busy doing other things.
Designing electronics. All that is required would be American bank IT
guys visiting Europe and learning how it's done there. That's it.


Like so many in this group you think the problems of other businesses
are so easy to solve, even when you have very little understanding.

--

Rick C

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:02 am   



On 1/9/2017 6:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
Quote:
On 2017-01-09 14:57, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 11:05 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:51, rickman wrote:

[...]


I know I have thought I set up transfers before, but it is a two step
process. You have to set it up, then a confirmation screen appears
which you must ok before it is sent. Then I get an acknowledgement
screen with a confirmation number. I now print that to a PDF both to
capture the confirmation number *and* to let me be sure I actually
clicked ok on the second screen.


Bill-Pay is different.

Actually it's not, I was describing bill pay. In the US we have wire
transfers which are fast, but they still charge significant fees for
using them. Then there are ACH transfers which take 2 days. That's all
we have.


And _that_ is what needs to change. Why are they not using the wire
system for such transfers? In Europe everything is wire since ...
forever. At least since I remember and I am not that young.


Wire transfers *are* available to you. What are you complaining about?


Quote:
... Online bill pay using ACH transfers for those who are set up
to receive payments. Some banks allow you to enter a person's bank and
account numbers and pay directly.


What is so difficult in exchanging account and routing number
information with the entities who set up for Bill-Pay with a bank? Then
it would be blazingly fast like in Europe. Is this rocket science?


You can do all the wire transfers you want.


Quote:
It is for places such as utilities where you send
money regularly. You set up a recipient and from then on you can simply
click and enter the amount you want to (or have to) pay. It only works
if the recipient is set up to do that with your bank. A confirmation
number is issued but it does not have to be ok'd, it is issued after
hitting the send button.

There is nothing unique to regular payments in US bill pay.


There should be. Else it's just a gimmick. But as I said at least it
save the postage which is about the only real advantage I see in it.


That makes no sense at all.


Quote:
Now if they are set up with a bank one would assume that a fast channel
for money transfer has been established but, oh no, it still goes on the
stage coach.

We all know what happens we you assume.

Europe is decades ahead of us in that respect. There you don't need
Bill-Pay or any of that. All you need is the account and routing number
for the utility or whatever, send the money, done. Gets there
immediately. No setting up anything.

Great! Now all we need to do is... what exactly?


Switch Bill-Pay to wire. Easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0


What's stopping you from switching?

--

Rick C


Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:30 am   



On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 10:15:09 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:

Quote:
On 06/01/17 02:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 18:20:54 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 05/01/2017 17:53, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 16:10:19 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 05/01/17 14:40, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 10:11:37 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:
On 04/01/17 23:39, Joerg wrote:

Even back in the 70's and 80's I can't remember the last time I used a
check over in Europe. The bank gave me a small book of checks but that
just sat in a locked drawer. After I moved to the US the bank gave me a
huge stack of checks and I was "WHAT??". It felt like a step back into
the days of the Ford Model T.

The last cheque I saw here in Norway was about a decade ago, when I got
one as a refund from a Danish company. I took it to our bank, and the
young women at the counter asked what it was. I explained, and she said
she had heard of cheques, but had no idea what to do with them as she
had never seen one before - she had to ask one of the older bank
employees to help. No one had cheque books here when I first moved to
Norway, about 25 years ago.

She should be fired. Exactly what is her job?

Fortunately, I live in Norway where people can't be fired by someone's
knee-jerk reaction. Would you fire an electronics designer if he were
shown a vacuum tube and he said he'd never seen one before - he'd have
to ask one of the old folks how to use it?

"Someone's knee-jerk reaction" <> gross incompetence. She doesn't
know her business and, worse, let the customer know that the bank was
incompentent.

What is she supposed to do when someone turns up with an antidiluvian
form of archaic paper payment that hasn't been seen in living memory?
All she *can* do is find some elderly employee who has seen one before
and knows what to do with it.

Excuse herself and discretely see her manager for instruction. My
wife worked in banks for twenty years. She would never show
incompetence to the customer. That's a *bit* no-no.

I know nothing about what passes for "customer service" in the USA, but
here in Norway, staff are expected to be honest, friendly, helpful, and
to talk to customers. You "excuse yourself and discretely see the
manager" if you think the customer is trying to do something illegal and
you don't want to let them know your suspicions. But in general, if one
staff member has to get help from another staff member, they will tell
you exactly why.

So, you just advertise that those entrusted with the customer's money
are incompetent. Great plan. No, you train people to do their jobs.
If there is something that's done so rarely that the line people can't
remember how to do it, the teller just discretely gets help. They do
*not* say "Gee I don't know. Why would anyone want to do that?"


Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:52 pm   



Quote:
"Joerge is complaining that we don't have such instant transfers of money
here in the US. I'd like to know just how it is accomplished. "


It is. It's just that the banks sit on the money. Of ALL the transactions, imagine the interest. They are maintaining a "minimum balance".

John Devereux
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:59 pm   



rickman <gnuarm_at_gmail.com> writes:

Quote:
On 1/9/2017 5:42 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Den mandag den 9. januar 2017 kl. 23.33.48 UTC+1 skrev rickman:
On 1/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date"
next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here,
banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM
that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data, plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi. Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as legit.

An rpi has a camera. Running android it has access to all the same apps
that run on a phone. What part is missing?

the phone part

I know here there is lot of stuff that is easier to do on a phone than
any other device I guess because the phone is considered a more secure
device, being tied to a serial number, phone number, subscription and
running signed apps

The security of burner phones??? I guess that's why the drug guys use
them, they like the security.


Yes, quite. A RPi *is* a "phone*; in that it uses a mobile phone
processor AIUI. Android is available for the RPi 3 for example and it
runs the google playstore like any Android phone or tablet.

Of course it would be less of a project to just get a cheap second hand
smartphone. I doubt it even needs a SIM for banking.


--

John Devereux

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:49 pm   



On 1/10/2017 2:59 AM, John Devereux wrote:
Quote:
rickman <gnuarm_at_gmail.com> writes:

On 1/9/2017 5:42 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Den mandag den 9. januar 2017 kl. 23.33.48 UTC+1 skrev rickman:
On 1/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date"
next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here,
banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM
that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data, plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi. Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as legit.

An rpi has a camera. Running android it has access to all the same apps
that run on a phone. What part is missing?

the phone part

I know here there is lot of stuff that is easier to do on a phone than
any other device I guess because the phone is considered a more secure
device, being tied to a serial number, phone number, subscription and
running signed apps

The security of burner phones??? I guess that's why the drug guys use
them, they like the security.

Yes, quite. A RPi *is* a "phone*; in that it uses a mobile phone
processor AIUI. Android is available for the RPi 3 for example and it
runs the google playstore like any Android phone or tablet.

Of course it would be less of a project to just get a cheap second hand
smartphone. I doubt it even needs a SIM for banking.


Now that you say that, I believe you can get refurbished smart phones
for less than the cost of a rPi once you factor in the PSU, case,
camera, etc.

--

Rick C

David Brown
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:00 pm   



On 10/01/17 02:00, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 6:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-09 14:43, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:03, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:30, rickman wrote:

[...]

Piece of cake. All they need is the account number, the routing number
and what to write into the comment line. The latter so that the
recipient knows which of their internal client accounts to credit the
amount to. This is how I pay the news server I am using.

I get tired if you only half way explaining things. *WHAT* is how you
pay the newserver?


The news server charges 10 Euros per year. That needs to be paid.

You really just can't even understand the question.


... If you are doing this through a US bank you are
using ACH transfers. Is that ok or not ok?


No, it's paid from a European account and, therefore, arrives instantly.

Ok, so the "what" is paying through an EU online billpay. You got the
newsserver company to give you their bank account number? Good luck
doing that here unless you are a credible company. Bank account numbers
are not given out so freely.


Yes, bank account numbers /are/ given out freely. Maybe that is a key
difference between the USA system and the European system.

When I get a bill, the bank account number for the recipient is written
on the bill. When a I pay it through my online banking (which is
/really/ online), I type in the bank account number for the recipient,
the amount due, and either an identifying comment or an identifying
number that the biller's accountancy software generated and printed on
the bill. (This number is used to let the accountancy software
automatically track which customers have paid.)

Using a bank account number as the identifier is vastly more efficient,
more convenient, less error-prone, and safer than using names and
addresses. Clearly I can only pay money /into/ the receiver's account -
I can't take money out, view their accounts, or anything else.

The same system is used whether I am paying a workman for fixing my
pipes, or the state for outstanding taxes, or the school class parents'
representative who is collecting for an end-of-term party.


Quote:


You seem to be complaining this is not good enough. If not, then what
would be the mechanism for faster service.


A banking system like they have in Europe. That works.

Which you have no idea how it works.


I know that /I/ don't know how the banking system in Europe works. But
clearly, it /does/ work - and it does so far, far faster and more
conveniently than the American system. It is up to the American banks
to look at the European ones and learn how to improve - and up to
American bank customers to demand that they do so. It is not up to a
bunch of electronics engineers to understand the details of a completely
different industry.

Whether it is /possible/ to change the American bank system to work like
the European one, is a different matter.

Maybe it's like your health service. By any objective measurement
(money spent, treatment received, child mortality rates, fairness,
etc.), the American health system is abysmal in comparison to European
countries. Yet most Americans believe - as surely as they believe the
sun will rise tomorrow - that they have the world's best health care.
And the people involved in the health care "industry" (only in the USA
is it thought of as an "industry" for making money - elsewhere, it is a
"service" for helping the people) make vast amounts of money out of your
system. So there is no incentive to actually make the changes needed to
turn the system into a fair and efficient one. And since properly
changing it would involve a complete rebuild of the entire system, it
will probably never happen.

Trying to change the American banking system to work more like the
European ones might be possible, but it might also be /impossible/ to
copy it completely. Maybe it cannot be done where you have such an
overriding distrust in any sort of authority or institution.

(I don't mean to be anti-American here - this is just an example. There
are plenty of things wrong with the way things work in Europe, including
within the health services and banking industry, and plenty of things
that work better in the USA than over here.)

Quote:
Your link says nothing about how it is implemented other than referring
to "commercial and technical frameworks". Why don't you set up the
"commercial and technical frameworks" and we'll all use it?


Because I am an analog design engineer and are busy doing other things.
Designing electronics. All that is required would be American bank IT
guys visiting Europe and learning how it's done there. That's it.

Like so many in this group you think the problems of other businesses
are so easy to solve, even when you have very little understanding.


All he is saying is that European banking is much faster and more
efficient than American banking, and it should be possible to improve
banking in America if the bank people there were to look at the European
systems and learn from them. He has made no claims that this would be
an easy or fast change - merely that it should be possible.

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