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David Brown
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:15 pm   



On 06/01/17 02:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 18:20:54 +0000, Martin Brown
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 05/01/2017 17:53, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 16:10:19 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 05/01/17 14:40, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 10:11:37 +0100, David Brown
david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:
On 04/01/17 23:39, Joerg wrote:

Even back in the 70's and 80's I can't remember the last time I used a
check over in Europe. The bank gave me a small book of checks but that
just sat in a locked drawer. After I moved to the US the bank gave me a
huge stack of checks and I was "WHAT??". It felt like a step back into
the days of the Ford Model T.

The last cheque I saw here in Norway was about a decade ago, when I got
one as a refund from a Danish company. I took it to our bank, and the
young women at the counter asked what it was. I explained, and she said
she had heard of cheques, but had no idea what to do with them as she
had never seen one before - she had to ask one of the older bank
employees to help. No one had cheque books here when I first moved to
Norway, about 25 years ago.

She should be fired. Exactly what is her job?

Fortunately, I live in Norway where people can't be fired by someone's
knee-jerk reaction. Would you fire an electronics designer if he were
shown a vacuum tube and he said he'd never seen one before - he'd have
to ask one of the old folks how to use it?

"Someone's knee-jerk reaction" <> gross incompetence. She doesn't
know her business and, worse, let the customer know that the bank was
incompentent.

What is she supposed to do when someone turns up with an antidiluvian
form of archaic paper payment that hasn't been seen in living memory?
All she *can* do is find some elderly employee who has seen one before
and knows what to do with it.

Excuse herself and discretely see her manager for instruction. My
wife worked in banks for twenty years. She would never show
incompetence to the customer. That's a *bit* no-no.


I know nothing about what passes for "customer service" in the USA, but
here in Norway, staff are expected to be honest, friendly, helpful, and
to talk to customers. You "excuse yourself and discretely see the
manager" if you think the customer is trying to do something illegal and
you don't want to let them know your suspicions. But in general, if one
staff member has to get help from another staff member, they will tell
you exactly why.

David Brown
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:18 pm   



On 06/01/17 12:51, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/6/2017 6:43 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 06/01/2017 11:14, rickman wrote:
On 1/6/2017 4:58 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

The same situation arises in the UK with bank books on very old legacy
accounts - only a handful of the staff know know to set up and operate
the archaic hardware that updates the books with the new balance. Such
accounts are almost extinct as their owners are typically in their
90's.

How many remember how to count the old currencies? How many shilling in
a crown?

5 pre 1990 (25p) and 100 post 1990 (5). Collectors items though.

I can just about recall how to do computations in archaic British units
ton, cwt, quarters, st, lb, oz, dram too as taught at primary school.

An old crown used to be colloquially called a dollar (or rather half a
crown was half a dollar) back when the GBP/USD ratio was 4:1.

I was once fined a groat = 1/3 old shilling or 4d at university.
An amount impossible to pay exactly in the decimal era.

You could always write a cheque using the fraction... I wonder what the
bank would do with that?


I remember my Gran giving me birthday cheques for sums like 5-0-0 into
the early eighties (about a decade after shillings were dropped from the
British currency). The bank was fine with that, but I wonder what they
would have done with a non-zero shilling count.

rickman
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:24 pm   



On 1/9/2017 3:42 AM, David Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 06/01/17 12:07, rickman wrote:

You don't get it. Online banking here does not require the bank to do
anything other than provide the equipment to serve the functionality. I
enter your info. I send the check. It is *MUCH* more likely that I
would make a mistake than the bank. Even writing a check myself and
putting it in the mail is more likely to screw up than online banking.


When there are cheques involved, it is /not/ "online banking". It's
just a service to print cheques rather than writing them by hand.

If I print out a letter, fax it to you (assuming I could find a fax
machine - they are almost non-existent this side of the pond), and you
read it, it is not email - it's just using a computer to make snail mail
slightly less slow.

When we in Europe say "online banking", we mean everything is
computer-to-computer. No printouts. No cheques. No bank employees
printing things out so that it can be posted to someone else and another
bank employee reads it and types it into a different computer. No
week-long delays, or risks of things getting lost in the post, cheques
bouncing, etc. An online transfer takes /seconds/ in most cases.
/That/ is what online banking means.


What is the medium for this? Who provides the protocol and if needed,
the intermediate handing?

--

Rick C

Tom Gardner
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:53 pm   



On 09/01/17 09:24, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 3:42 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 06/01/17 12:07, rickman wrote:

You don't get it. Online banking here does not require the bank to do
anything other than provide the equipment to serve the functionality. I
enter your info. I send the check. It is *MUCH* more likely that I
would make a mistake than the bank. Even writing a check myself and
putting it in the mail is more likely to screw up than online banking.


When there are cheques involved, it is /not/ "online banking". It's
just a service to print cheques rather than writing them by hand.

If I print out a letter, fax it to you (assuming I could find a fax
machine - they are almost non-existent this side of the pond), and you
read it, it is not email - it's just using a computer to make snail mail
slightly less slow.

When we in Europe say "online banking", we mean everything is
computer-to-computer. No printouts. No cheques. No bank employees
printing things out so that it can be posted to someone else and another
bank employee reads it and types it into a different computer. No
week-long delays, or risks of things getting lost in the post, cheques
bouncing, etc. An online transfer takes /seconds/ in most cases.
/That/ is what online banking means.

What is the medium for this? Who provides the protocol and if needed, the
intermediate handing?


We don't need to know; it just happens.

Similarly, we don't need to understand the vast ecosystem
of companies that are involved in credit card processing
and payments.

rickman
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:56 pm   



On 1/9/2017 4:53 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Quote:
On 09/01/17 09:24, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 3:42 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 06/01/17 12:07, rickman wrote:

You don't get it. Online banking here does not require the bank to do
anything other than provide the equipment to serve the
functionality. I
enter your info. I send the check. It is *MUCH* more likely that I
would make a mistake than the bank. Even writing a check myself and
putting it in the mail is more likely to screw up than online banking.


When there are cheques involved, it is /not/ "online banking". It's
just a service to print cheques rather than writing them by hand.

If I print out a letter, fax it to you (assuming I could find a fax
machine - they are almost non-existent this side of the pond), and you
read it, it is not email - it's just using a computer to make snail mail
slightly less slow.

When we in Europe say "online banking", we mean everything is
computer-to-computer. No printouts. No cheques. No bank employees
printing things out so that it can be posted to someone else and another
bank employee reads it and types it into a different computer. No
week-long delays, or risks of things getting lost in the post, cheques
bouncing, etc. An online transfer takes /seconds/ in most cases.
/That/ is what online banking means.

What is the medium for this? Who provides the protocol and if needed,
the
intermediate handing?

We don't need to know; it just happens.

Similarly, we don't need to understand the vast ecosystem
of companies that are involved in credit card processing
and payments.


Joerge is complaining that we don't have such instant transfers of money
here in the US. I'd like to know just how it is accomplished.

--

Rick C

Tom Gardner
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:17 pm   



On 09/01/17 09:56, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 4:53 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 09/01/17 09:24, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 3:42 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 06/01/17 12:07, rickman wrote:

You don't get it. Online banking here does not require the bank to do
anything other than provide the equipment to serve the
functionality. I
enter your info. I send the check. It is *MUCH* more likely that I
would make a mistake than the bank. Even writing a check myself and
putting it in the mail is more likely to screw up than online banking.


When there are cheques involved, it is /not/ "online banking". It's
just a service to print cheques rather than writing them by hand.

If I print out a letter, fax it to you (assuming I could find a fax
machine - they are almost non-existent this side of the pond), and you
read it, it is not email - it's just using a computer to make snail mail
slightly less slow.

When we in Europe say "online banking", we mean everything is
computer-to-computer. No printouts. No cheques. No bank employees
printing things out so that it can be posted to someone else and another
bank employee reads it and types it into a different computer. No
week-long delays, or risks of things getting lost in the post, cheques
bouncing, etc. An online transfer takes /seconds/ in most cases.
/That/ is what online banking means.

What is the medium for this? Who provides the protocol and if needed,
the
intermediate handing?

We don't need to know; it just happens.

Similarly, we don't need to understand the vast ecosystem
of companies that are involved in credit card processing
and payments.

Joerge is complaining that we don't have such instant transfers of money here in
the US. I'd like to know just how it is accomplished.


Magic, as in "any sufficiently advanced technology
is indistinguishable from magic".

David Brown
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:52 pm   



On 09/01/17 10:56, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 4:53 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 09/01/17 09:24, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 3:42 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 06/01/17 12:07, rickman wrote:

When we in Europe say "online banking", we mean everything is
computer-to-computer. No printouts. No cheques. No bank employees
printing things out so that it can be posted to someone else and
another
bank employee reads it and types it into a different computer. No
week-long delays, or risks of things getting lost in the post, cheques
bouncing, etc. An online transfer takes /seconds/ in most cases.
/That/ is what online banking means.

What is the medium for this? Who provides the protocol and if needed,
the
intermediate handing?

We don't need to know; it just happens.

Similarly, we don't need to understand the vast ecosystem
of companies that are involved in credit card processing
and payments.

Joerge is complaining that we don't have such instant transfers of money
here in the US. I'd like to know just how it is accomplished.


I don't know either. But I can tell you that it works, and usually does
so without much problem or delay. Transfer times in seconds is within
the same bank. Transfers between banks might take a little longer (I
can't say off hand, because the only cases I have measured are within
the same bank). International transfers between my father's bank in
Scotland and mine in Norway are usually next working day - international
transfers always have a few extra checks to make sure you are not
laundering money, exceeding tax-free transfer limits, and so on.

I suspect the underlying reason is that people in Europe are quite good
at cooperating and learning from each other (having learned the hard
way). The banks have sat down together to discuss how to make it easier
to pass money around, for the benefit of everyone. In the USA,
everything is a competition and everyone wants to do things their own
way (with an absolute conviction that /their/ way is the best, despite
glaring evidence to the contrary). So American banks won't talk to
other American banks, much less other countries, if they can get away
with it.

Jasen Betts
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:07 pm   



On 2017-01-09, David Brown <david.brown_at_hesbynett.no> wrote:
Quote:
On 06/01/17 12:51, rickman wrote:
On 1/6/2017 6:43 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 06/01/2017 11:14, rickman wrote:
On 1/6/2017 4:58 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

The same situation arises in the UK with bank books on very old legacy
accounts - only a handful of the staff know know to set up and operate
the archaic hardware that updates the books with the new balance. Such
accounts are almost extinct as their owners are typically in their
90's.

How many remember how to count the old currencies? How many shilling in
a crown?

5 pre 1990 (25p) and 100 post 1990 (£5). Collectors items though.

I can just about recall how to do computations in archaic British units
ton, cwt, quarters, st, lb, oz, dram too as taught at primary school.

An old crown used to be colloquially called a dollar (or rather half a
crown was half a dollar) back when the GBP/USD ratio was 4:1.

I was once fined a groat = 1/3 old shilling or 4d at university.
An amount impossible to pay exactly in the decimal era.

You could always write a cheque using the fraction... I wonder what the
bank would do with that?


I remember my Gran giving me birthday cheques for sums like £5-0-0 into
the early eighties (about a decade after shillings were dropped from the
British currency). The bank was fine with that, but I wonder what they
would have done with a non-zero shilling count.


A shilling, at 20 to the pound, is exactly 5 new pence,
a non-zero pence amount would have been more challenging, but no
doubt, they have a standardised procedure to handle any fractioanl
remainder.


--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software

Joerg
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:44 pm   



On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date" next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here, banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data, plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi. Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as legit.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:56 pm   



On 2017-01-08 17:30, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/8/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:03, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:37 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:15, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 2:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:00, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 04/01/17 22:56, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
here there are no checks anymore it stopped at the end of 2016

How do grandparents give a birthday present of money
to their grandkids?
How do you pay a tradesman for a £1000 job?

I rarely use cheques now, but I would fight against their
disappearance - as the banks were planning 5 years or so ago.


In Europe I paid contractors simply by wire transfer. That was the
normal way of doing it even in the 80's and before. Gets there in
about
two minutes. Sometimes seconds. Unlike electronic bill-pay in
the US
which obviously can take up to a week for whatever reason.

Online billpay takes a week only when they have to mail a check.


I wonder how they handle the cost. Someone has to pay for postage and
for handling yet it doesn't cost me anything.

I've asked that a number of times and never gotten a satisfactory
answer. One online account I had was only free if you used it a
minimum
number of times a month. Very weird. But that says to me they are
making a bit on the float. Maybe that worked then, but now they don't
take the money out of my account until they expect the check to be in
the hands of the payee, so there is essentially no float.


Exactly. The money I sent via Bill-Pay early last week still sits in my
account, effectively having nixed a purchase. This is almost like they
built a steampunk system instead of a modern banking system. To me
there
is a lot of incompetence in our banking system.

There are times when you an John Larkin are total idiots. You are on
the outside looking in and don't know anything about it.


No, we know how it could be done right. Banks obviously do not.


it is electronic they take to banking days because it is going
through
the same channels as were originally set up for checks, ACH
transfers.


That's a serious mistake on the part of the banks. Once a trusted
account relationship has been established between the receiving
accounts
of the various utilities and the account of the sender there is no
reason to go through all this bureaucracy. Their execs should take a
trip to Europe, get a tour of a bank's operations and see how it's
done
more efficiently.

You seem to be talking in relative ignorance.


No, experience. From living there.

Ignorance of the US system, the how and the whys. See my previous
comment above.


Then it's a bad system, plain and simple.



... For the US banks to do it
another way means a new system would have to be set up. That means
some
medium or mechanism would need to be created. Do you actually know
how
the European banking system works?


Yes. I lived there for decades.

That doesn't mean you know diddly squat about how it actually works.
What is the medium for banks exchanging money there?

BTW, some banks have a facility to exchange money electronically in the
US. But it still uses ACH transfers and requires you to have all the
numbers for the other person's bank account. PNC has this, or at least
had. I haven't used it in a long time.


These numbers are what the bank is supposed to exchange with any company
that subscribes to that bank's bill pay. Then they have all that. It's
that simple.

Ah! There is the problem. You seem to think that every bank connects
to every payee directly. That would be like the old bulletin board
systems where you had to dial in directly to each server you wanted to
communicate with.


Piece of cake. All they need is the account number, the routing number
and what to write into the comment line. The latter so that the
recipient knows which of their internal client accounts to credit the
amount to. This is how I pay the news server I am using.


Quote:
... That would be a HUGE amount of work on the part of
*each* and every bank to register each and every payee.


If I can do it in a matter of seconds and all Europeans do it in a
matter of seconds why is this such a "HUGE" amount of work for a US bank?


Quote:
The current US system has a central facility which registers payees and
handles the payments. Since checking accounts already had the ACH for
all this, in the US they decided to use this for direct electronic
payments as well. I believe this decision was made almost 20 years ago.
I know I was using online banking with direct ACH transfers around 2000.


If this clearing house system is so sluggish it's time to scrap it, look
at why other countries do it better and then adopt their method. This is
how Taiwan revamped their ailing health care system. They chose a
potpourri of solutions concocted after visiting a dozen countries.


Quote:
You don't know how the system works in the EU. You just know you don't
like the delays here. When you know enough to explain how to improve it
I'll be happy to listen.


See above. You can also read it on the web.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

They already knew it way before, decades ago. Merchants that sold me
merchandise in Europe would simply have their account number and routing
number on the invoice (it's usually on all their letters, in the footer
of the first page), I did an electronic transfer to that account, done.
Takes a few minutes, not days or weeks. That's how it's done right.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:05 pm   



On 2017-01-08 17:51, rickman wrote:
Quote:
On 1/8/2017 5:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:05, rickman wrote:


[...]

Quote:
... I assume you actually
sent the money to yourself via the paypal account? Or did you send it
to another party via paypal?


From my own bank account to my own Paypal account, to fill it up with
funds for a purchase. That doesn't seem too difficult a process. Well, I
guess for banks it is difficult.


BTW, is five days ago, Thursday or Wednesday? Weekends don't count to
banks.


IIRC I initiated it last weekend. A computer at a bank is not supposed
to take weekends off. Certainly not a whole week.

I'd say it's time for a new bank. If you set up a transaction and have
the confirmation number and they just shrug their shoulders, there's a
problem with accountability. Are you going to stay with a bank that
can't tell you what is going on with your money? That's pretty much
rule 1 with banking, always know where the money is and what's happening
to it.


I have asked friends and they said it's similar with their banks around
here, that this newfangled "electronic" method isn't all what it's
cracked up to be. More like a gimmick. Well, at least it saves the postage.


Quote:
I know I have thought I set up transfers before, but it is a two step
process. You have to set it up, then a confirmation screen appears
which you must ok before it is sent. Then I get an acknowledgement
screen with a confirmation number. I now print that to a PDF both to
capture the confirmation number *and* to let me be sure I actually
clicked ok on the second screen.


Bill-Pay is different. It is for places such as utilities where you send
money regularly. You set up a recipient and from then on you can simply
click and enter the amount you want to (or have to) pay. It only works
if the recipient is set up to do that with your bank. A confirmation
number is issued but it does not have to be ok'd, it is issued after
hitting the send button.

Now if they are set up with a bank one would assume that a fast channel
for money transfer has been established but, oh no, it still goes on the
stage coach.

Europe is decades ahead of us in that respect. There you don't need
Bill-Pay or any of that. All you need is the account and routing number
for the utility or whatever, send the money, done. Gets there
immediately. No setting up anything.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Lasse Langwadt Christense
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:42 am   



Den mandag den 9. januar 2017 kl. 23.33.48 UTC+1 skrev rickman:
Quote:
On 1/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date"
next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here,
banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM
that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data, plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi. Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as legit.

An rpi has a camera. Running android it has access to all the same apps
that run on a phone. What part is missing?


the phone part

I know here there is lot of stuff that is easier to do on a phone than
any other device I guess because the phone is considered a more secure
device, being tied to a serial number, phone number, subscription and
running signed apps

Joerg
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:13 am   



On 2017-01-09 03:52, David Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 09/01/17 10:56, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 4:53 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 09/01/17 09:24, rickman wrote:
On 1/9/2017 3:42 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 06/01/17 12:07, rickman wrote:

When we in Europe say "online banking", we mean everything is
computer-to-computer. No printouts. No cheques. No bank employees
printing things out so that it can be posted to someone else and
another
bank employee reads it and types it into a different computer. No
week-long delays, or risks of things getting lost in the post, cheques
bouncing, etc. An online transfer takes /seconds/ in most cases.
/That/ is what online banking means.

What is the medium for this? Who provides the protocol and if needed,
the
intermediate handing?

We don't need to know; it just happens.

Similarly, we don't need to understand the vast ecosystem
of companies that are involved in credit card processing
and payments.

Joerge is complaining that we don't have such instant transfers of money
here in the US. I'd like to know just how it is accomplished.


I don't know either. But I can tell you that it works, and usually does
so without much problem or delay. Transfer times in seconds is within
the same bank. Transfers between banks might take a little longer (I
can't say off hand, because the only cases I have measured are within
the same bank).


Usually a few minutes. I believe since a few years there is even a law
that online payments within the EU must be received within one day.
AFAIK that includes money paid to a party in another EU country.


Quote:
... International transfers between my father's bank in
Scotland and mine in Norway are usually next working day - international
transfers always have a few extra checks to make sure you are not
laundering money, exceeding tax-free transfer limits, and so on.

I suspect the underlying reason is that people in Europe are quite good
at cooperating and learning from each other (having learned the hard
way). The banks have sat down together to discuss how to make it easier
to pass money around, for the benefit of everyone. In the USA,
everything is a competition and everyone wants to do things their own
way (with an absolute conviction that /their/ way is the best, despite
glaring evidence to the contrary). So American banks won't talk to
other American banks, much less other countries, if they can get away
with it.


In the US we almost live in the stone age when it comes to banking. WRT
online stock trading I think the US is generally more advanced. Banks in
Europe often charge fat fees which are much more modest in the US. Also,
stock trades are performed almost instantaneously here unless, of
course, you set triggers. I cannot understand how on one side we have a
very modern and well oiled machinery for stock and bond trading on one
hand and then a banking system stuck in yesteryear on the other. Makes
no sense.

I strongly believe there isn't a willingness to improve it. That it
could be done with ease is clearly evidenced by the credit and debit
card systems in the US. There you can pay someone thousands of miles
away and the money switches accounts in milliseconds.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:33 am   



On 1/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
Quote:
On 2017-01-08 17:18, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 13:53, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:20, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:23, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:37, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:10:43 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2017-01-04 11:08, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:34:08 -0800, Joerg
news_at_analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Folks,

Just started to use BofA's Bill Pay. When I entered a pay
order to
another account it only accepted it with a "delivery date"
next
Monday.
Five days! Another payment made on the weekend is still
"processing".

"Processing" just means not yet "officially" posted, which
occurs
each
night.


Where are we? In the Flintstonian age? When I was living in
Europe
_decades_ ago this stuff happened within minutes. Here,
banking
electrons seem to be like molasses in Siberia.

We need a Banking-Trump ...

BofA sucks, for many other reasons.


The local branch sure does, lots of waiting in line. But hardly
any
serious competition out here.

Do you really need a local branch.


Yes, for example for the safe desposit box and to deposit checks.
They
accept them scanned via smart phone but not scanned via computer
scanner. Beats me why, makes no sense at all and I am not going to
get a
smart phone just for that. It is also practical to have an ATM
that
doesn't sock one with off-network fees and those tend to be at the
bank
locations.

I believe you can run Android on a raspberry pi and do all the same
stuff. A pi with a camera is running about $50 these days.


Won't work. You'd also need an expensive cell plan with data, plus a
modem, plus, plus, plus. And I am not going to start a science
project
for that.

Why do you need a cell plan? Phones can use wifi to save the data
cost.
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does not work. See below.


So certainly a device that has no phone in it doesn't need a
contract
with a phone carrier... lol What are you thinking of?


So I am going to by a Galaxy or an iPhone just to scan checks? Are you
serious here?

Are you not able to read? Reread what you have been replying to and
tell me where I said you should get an iPhone.


I have underlined it. As anyone can gather (or should have ...) those
were example. Fact is, you need a smart phone. You also need this to be
a legit and recognizable communication device so the bank will accept
the scanned check. Now what does that require of the user each month?

As I has said before, I repeat, the bank _will_ _not_ accept a check
copy sent via an email account, regardless of whether you scanned on
your office scanner or on some smart phone hooked to your WiFi. Yes, we
have asked them. Yes, they told us so.

You still are not reading. A Raspberry Pi can run android. It can send
and receive SMS text messages, but if you are sending images, then you
don't really want to send SMS text messages, you want to send MMS
messages which a Raspberry Pi can also do. No need for a cell phone or
a cell phone plan.

Is that clear enough? If anything I've said sounds like "cell phone"
to you, you are not reading correctly.


You missed the salient point. Please explain how exactly the _picture_
of the check _gets_ to the bank in a way that they will accept it as legit.


An rpi has a camera. Running android it has access to all the same apps
that run on a phone. What part is missing?

--

Rick C

rickman
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:43 am   



On 1/9/2017 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
Quote:
On 2017-01-08 17:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 14:03, rickman wrote:
On 1/8/2017 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-08 03:30, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 6:37 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-07 12:15, rickman wrote:
On 1/7/2017 2:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-04 17:00, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 04/01/17 22:56, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
here there are no checks anymore it stopped at the end of 2016

How do grandparents give a birthday present of money
to their grandkids?
How do you pay a tradesman for a £1000 job?

I rarely use cheques now, but I would fight against their
disappearance - as the banks were planning 5 years or so ago.


In Europe I paid contractors simply by wire transfer. That was the
normal way of doing it even in the 80's and before. Gets there in
about
two minutes. Sometimes seconds. Unlike electronic bill-pay in
the US
which obviously can take up to a week for whatever reason.

Online billpay takes a week only when they have to mail a check.


I wonder how they handle the cost. Someone has to pay for postage
and
for handling yet it doesn't cost me anything.

I've asked that a number of times and never gotten a satisfactory
answer. One online account I had was only free if you used it a
minimum
number of times a month. Very weird. But that says to me they are
making a bit on the float. Maybe that worked then, but now they
don't
take the money out of my account until they expect the check to be in
the hands of the payee, so there is essentially no float.


Exactly. The money I sent via Bill-Pay early last week still sits
in my
account, effectively having nixed a purchase. This is almost like they
built a steampunk system instead of a modern banking system. To me
there
is a lot of incompetence in our banking system.

There are times when you an John Larkin are total idiots. You are on
the outside looking in and don't know anything about it.


No, we know how it could be done right. Banks obviously do not.


it is electronic they take to banking days because it is going
through
the same channels as were originally set up for checks, ACH
transfers.


That's a serious mistake on the part of the banks. Once a trusted
account relationship has been established between the receiving
accounts
of the various utilities and the account of the sender there is no
reason to go through all this bureaucracy. Their execs should take a
trip to Europe, get a tour of a bank's operations and see how it's
done
more efficiently.

You seem to be talking in relative ignorance.


No, experience. From living there.

Ignorance of the US system, the how and the whys. See my previous
comment above.


Then it's a bad system, plain and simple.



... For the US banks to
do it
another way means a new system would have to be set up. That means
some
medium or mechanism would need to be created. Do you actually know
how
the European banking system works?


Yes. I lived there for decades.

That doesn't mean you know diddly squat about how it actually works.
What is the medium for banks exchanging money there?

BTW, some banks have a facility to exchange money electronically in the
US. But it still uses ACH transfers and requires you to have all the
numbers for the other person's bank account. PNC has this, or at least
had. I haven't used it in a long time.


These numbers are what the bank is supposed to exchange with any company
that subscribes to that bank's bill pay. Then they have all that. It's
that simple.

Ah! There is the problem. You seem to think that every bank connects
to every payee directly. That would be like the old bulletin board
systems where you had to dial in directly to each server you wanted to
communicate with.


Piece of cake. All they need is the account number, the routing number
and what to write into the comment line. The latter so that the
recipient knows which of their internal client accounts to credit the
amount to. This is how I pay the news server I am using.


I get tired if you only half way explaining things. *WHAT* is how you
pay the newserver? If you are doing this through a US bank you are
using ACH transfers. Is that ok or not ok?

You seem to be complaining this is not good enough. If not, then what
would be the mechanism for faster service.


Quote:
... That would be a HUGE amount of work on the part of
*each* and every bank to register each and every payee.


If I can do it in a matter of seconds and all Europeans do it in a
matter of seconds why is this such a "HUGE" amount of work for a US bank?


You have *no idea* how they are doing it in the EU.


Quote:
The current US system has a central facility which registers payees and
handles the payments. Since checking accounts already had the ACH for
all this, in the US they decided to use this for direct electronic
payments as well. I believe this decision was made almost 20 years ago.
I know I was using online banking with direct ACH transfers around
2000.


If this clearing house system is so sluggish it's time to scrap it, look
at why other countries do it better and then adopt their method. This is
how Taiwan revamped their ailing health care system. They chose a
potpourri of solutions concocted after visiting a dozen countries.


You sound like the republicans and Obamacare, scrap it, without having
any idea of what to replace it with... except something "better".


Quote:
You don't know how the system works in the EU. You just know you don't
like the delays here. When you know enough to explain how to improve it
I'll be happy to listen.


See above. You can also read it on the web.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

They already knew it way before, decades ago. Merchants that sold me
merchandise in Europe would simply have their account number and routing
number on the invoice (it's usually on all their letters, in the footer
of the first page), I did an electronic transfer to that account, done.
Takes a few minutes, not days or weeks. That's how it's done right.


Your link says nothing about how it is implemented other than referring
to "commercial and technical frameworks". Why don't you set up the
"commercial and technical frameworks" and we'll all use it?

--

Rick C

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