Economy thermal imager?

Jupiter Jaq
Guest

Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:59 am

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:27:25 -0700 (PDT), osr_at_uakron.edu wrote:

Quote:

On Jul 23, 1:20 am, Jupiter Jaq <Jupiter...@BuyOneGetOneFree.org
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), o...@uakron.edu wrote:
raytheon imagers show up, but I could never find one of the 240x320
cadillac deville ones,

320x240 ain't shit (the wide aspect is always first).

Mikron and FLIR were the Cadillacs.

And raytheon's cheapest bolometer was the one in the deville front
grill,

Oh WOW! I thought you were actually calling a Raytheon imager product
"The Cadillac" of the crop kind of thing. I totally missed that you were
referring to it actually being a product installed onto a Caddy.

Quote:

there is a complete system from the car on ebay starting at
200$ right now, probably will be 400$ or more when the auction is
done.

I agree 320 is a waste of time, but he's asking for a hobby system.

There are many out there, but shopping for the right price to get a good
value is difficult with the online world.

Hell, even at Fry's you cannot examine a working item more than half
the time. I hate that sight unseen crap!

Archimedes' Lever
Guest

Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:39 am

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:28:42 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Quote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:04:01 -0700, Fester Bestertester <fbt_at_fbt.net
wrote:

There are instructions on the 'net I've seen for removing the IR filter from
a digicam's digitizer chip so as to allow recording of the IR spectrum.

Commercial thermal imagers are thousands of dollars. They don't seem to be
anything more than a digicam with a broader spectrum (IR) sensor.

Can such a modified camera be used as a cheap thermal imager for industrial
purposes, such as looking for hot spots in equipment? Some application where
the temperature difference is large.

Thanks.

There's a reason a FLIR costs $10K.

John

Yeah... it is called greed, and the knowledge that most of your buyers
are rich government funded factions.

John Larkin
Guest

Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:47 am

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:39:02 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLever_at_InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

Quote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:28:42 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:04:01 -0700, Fester Bestertester <fbt_at_fbt.net
wrote:

There are instructions on the 'net I've seen for removing the IR filter from
a digicam's digitizer chip so as to allow recording of the IR spectrum.

Commercial thermal imagers are thousands of dollars. They don't seem to be
anything more than a digicam with a broader spectrum (IR) sensor.

Can such a modified camera be used as a cheap thermal imager for industrial
purposes, such as looking for hot spots in equipment? Some application where
the temperature difference is large.

Thanks.

There's a reason a FLIR costs $10K.

John

Yeah... it is called greed, and the knowledge that most of your buyers
are rich government funded factions.

The detector is pretty exotic, and the retail price of the germanium
lens is a couple of $K.

FLIR recently bought Extech, and has a new, lower-price thermal
imager.

John

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:35 am

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:47:27 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Quote:

The detector is pretty exotic, and the retail price of the germanium
lens is a couple of $K.

FLIR recently bought Extech, and has a new, lower-price thermal
imager.

<http://www.extech.com/instrument/products/alpha/IRC40.html>
$2,700 to $3,000 from many sources. Still kinda pricy but getting
there. Thanks.

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:58 am

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:04:01 -0700, Fester Bestertester <fbt_at_fbt.net>
wrote:

Quote:

There are instructions on the 'net I've seen for removing the IR filter from
a digicam's digitizer chip so as to allow recording of the IR spectrum.

Commercial thermal imagers are thousands of dollars. They don't seem to be
anything more than a digicam with a broader spectrum (IR) sensor.

Can such a modified camera be used as a cheap thermal imager for industrial
purposes, such as looking for hot spots in equipment? Some application where
the temperature difference is large.

Nope.

One of my rants covering the topic:
<http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.equipment/browse_thread/thread/92c3879a53a8f9f1>

Light reading that explains how it's done. See description:
<http://www.pyrometer.com/thermatrace.html>

How the detectors and imagers work:
<http://www.omega.com/literature/transactions/volume1/thermometers1.html>

More:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermography>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flir>

If you want cheap, I've butchered a supermarket bar code scanner into
an infrared flying spot scanner that sorta works. The problem is that
the detector is VERY slow to respond. It scans tolerably well if the
target isn't moving, but any movement results in a messy blur on the
screen.

Optics are another problem. A germanium lens is best, but I was
fairly successful with an ordinary glass lens with an IR bandpass
filter in front of it.
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390073136866>

Next step is to cool the assembly as I get as much thermal glow from
the case as IR transmission through the filter.

Archimedes' Lever
Guest

Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:48 am

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:47:27 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Quote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:39:02 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLever_at_InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:28:42 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:04:01 -0700, Fester Bestertester <fbt_at_fbt.net
wrote:

There are instructions on the 'net I've seen for removing the IR filter from
a digicam's digitizer chip so as to allow recording of the IR spectrum.

Commercial thermal imagers are thousands of dollars. They don't seem to be
anything more than a digicam with a broader spectrum (IR) sensor.

Can such a modified camera be used as a cheap thermal imager for industrial
purposes, such as looking for hot spots in equipment? Some application where
the temperature difference is large.

Thanks.

There's a reason a FLIR costs $10K.

John

Yeah... it is called greed, and the knowledge that most of your buyers
are rich government funded factions.

The detector is pretty exotic, and the retail price of the germanium
lens is a couple of $K.

FLIR recently bought Extech, and has a new, lower-price thermal
imager.

John

It would not surprise me if they did not buy Mikron next. I am sure
they are feeling the sting. Mikron's owner invented the resistor
bolometer transducer in 1960.. k. Irani.

OOOPS!

In 2007, Mikron Infrared was acquired by LumaSense Technologies, Inc.
With offices around the world, LumaSense Technologies develops ...

Just found that. Anyway, Mr. Irani was a cool guy.

Mikron is a cool company. Well, hot really... on average.

http://www.mikroninfrared.com/downloads/mikronproductportfolio.pdf

They got some pretty tight stuff, and I think FLIR buys gear from them
for calibration.

Best looking outdoor camera housings I have ever seen.
Really nice instruments now, compared to the Aluminum tube days when I
was there. We did not have powder coat back then.

Wow. Nice info sheet!

http://www.mikroninfrared.com/AboutBlackbodySources.aspx

and this one has some nice references at the bottom.

http://www.mikroninfrared.com/contentnonav.aspx?id=232

John Larkin
Guest

Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:01 pm

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:48:33 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLever_at_InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

Quote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:47:27 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:39:02 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLever_at_InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:28:42 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:04:01 -0700, Fester Bestertester <fbt_at_fbt.net
wrote:

There are instructions on the 'net I've seen for removing the IR filter from
a digicam's digitizer chip so as to allow recording of the IR spectrum.

Commercial thermal imagers are thousands of dollars. They don't seem to be
anything more than a digicam with a broader spectrum (IR) sensor.

Can such a modified camera be used as a cheap thermal imager for industrial
purposes, such as looking for hot spots in equipment? Some application where
the temperature difference is large.

Thanks.

There's a reason a FLIR costs $10K.

John

Yeah... it is called greed, and the knowledge that most of your buyers
are rich government funded factions.

The detector is pretty exotic, and the retail price of the germanium
lens is a couple of $K.

FLIR recently bought Extech, and has a new, lower-price thermal
imager.

John

It would not surprise me if they did not buy Mikron next. I am sure
they are feeling the sting. Mikron's owner invented the resistor
bolometer transducer in 1960.. k. Irani.

OOOPS!

In 2007, Mikron Infrared was acquired by LumaSense Technologies, Inc.
With offices around the world, LumaSense Technologies develops ...

Just found that. Anyway, Mr. Irani was a cool guy.

Mikron is a cool company. Well, hot really... on average.

http://www.mikroninfrared.com/downloads/mikronproductportfolio.pdf

They got some pretty tight stuff, and I think FLIR buys gear from them
for calibration.

Best looking outdoor camera housings I have ever seen.
Really nice instruments now, compared to the Aluminum tube days when I
was there. We did not have powder coat back then.

Wow. Nice info sheet!

http://www.mikroninfrared.com/AboutBlackbodySources.aspx

and this one has some nice references at the bottom.

http://www.mikroninfrared.com/contentnonav.aspx?id=232

Thermal imagers are getting cheaper, and will continue to do so, I
hope. Sub-$1000 one of these days maybe. Even a 100x100 pixel imager,
maybe with a plastic lens, could be mighty useful.

Our FLIR cost about $10K a couple of years ago and it was worth it.

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/IR_0026.jpg

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/IR_0032.jpg

John

Archimedes' Lever
Guest

Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:32 am

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:35:32 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl_at_cruzio.com>
wrote:

Quote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:47:27 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
The detector is pretty exotic, and the retail price of the germanium
lens is a couple of $K.

FLIR recently bought Extech, and has a new, lower-price thermal
imager.

http://www.extech.com/instrument/products/alpha/IRC40.html
$2,700 to $3,000 from many sources. Still kinda pricy but getting
there. Thanks.

Mikron. More pricey, but an order of magnitude better instrument.

Archimedes' Lever
Guest

Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:00 am

On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:01:54 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Quote:

Thermal imagers are getting cheaper, and will continue to do so, I
hope. Sub-$1000 one of these days maybe. Even a 100x100 pixel imager,
maybe with a plastic lens, could be mighty useful.

Our FLIR cost about $10K a couple of years ago and it was worth it.

Harbor freight has about five different sense model, but I wouldn't be
surprised if a cheap Chinese model didn't show up eventually.

Back when all there was was what we had, and that was only 4 fps and
ran on a 386, and had no out to NTSC option that we could even record
from... it was $90k+

At the same time, Fischer Price sold a B&W "toy" camera for $150 that
could have a Ge or Pyrex lens or filter put on it, and it would do IR
very nicely.

We all thought that was pretty funny, thinking how mere color added
$89.9k to the price.

Well... that and a nice arrangement with a little cup of Liquid
Nitrogen. It was a real thermal imager.

Now, they have room temp jobs. Your $10k unit is cheap by comparison.
The industry sure has come a long way since '87.
I'll bet you could get a real nice one from Kikron. Those ones with the
LCD "flap" in the back... They looked nice. Likely about $7k though.
Still a very REAL instrument, where some seem more like an "also show" to
the party. Quantifying accurately should be a requisite. Mikron does
that well. Not sure about some I've seen. I am sure that FLIR also does
nice, and true (as it were) instruments.

There are some though that are wide in their accuracy window, and
calibration seems and end to end thing, instead of being corrected along
the entire scale. Mikron sells nice Black Body calibration sources too.
Many can be made NIST traceable.

I still find it funny that I used to dope up a basketball with high
temp silica "plaster of Paris", then wrap nichrome coils around that,
then more "plaster". Then slice the sphere in half to get the ball back
out. Reform the sphere. bake it all. and add a radiation port to it (a
ceramic tube). Surround the outside with fire brick used for kilns.
Suspend all that in a big rack with the tube pointing out the front.

Add about 2500 Watts, a line cord (X Large) and a pid controller,and you
have a precision black body source that can make about 4000 degrees F
inside the globe. Those high temp sources are far more precise. They
vary little. A small black body source that uses a painted surface
(which they also sell) is harder to keep a uniform temp across it.
They have FLIR calibration sources now that are cool (hot) and stable
across a huge surface, which is very hard to do.

Mikron Or their parent, has also seemingly found a way to get better IR
focus than others.They have some pretty crisp detail going. I do not know
if you looked at the pdfs or not.

Dave
Guest

Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:09 am

On Jul 22, 4:04 pm, Fester Bestertester <f...@fbt.net> wrote:

Quote:

There are instructions on the 'net I've seen for removing the IR filter from
a digicam's digitizer chip so as to allow recording of the IR spectrum.

Commercial thermal imagers are thousands of dollars. They don't seem to be
anything more than a digicam with a broader spectrum (IR) sensor.

Can such a modified camera be used as a cheap thermal imager for industrial
purposes, such as looking for hot spots in equipment? Some application where
the temperature difference is large.

Thanks.

thermograms is what you referring to...... cmos and ccd found in
digital cameras are only sensitive to the NON-Thermal or
NIR.<900nm.... Focal-plane array (FPA) respond the longer wavelengths
900-14000nm

Its also difficult to see the Economy heat up through any electro-
mechanical device...Bernake is at a loss as well Smile

JosephKK
Guest

Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:47 am

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:45:22 +0100, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:

Fester Bestertester wrote:
There are instructions on the 'net I've seen for removing the IR filter from
a digicam's digitizer chip so as to allow recording of the IR spectrum.

Commercial thermal imagers are thousands of dollars. They don't seem to be
anything more than a digicam with a broader spectrum (IR) sensor.

A *much* broader spectrum out to long wave IR and also a silicon lens.
Glass does not transmit the wavelengths needed for thermal imaging.
There is a good reason why they are so expensive.

You can do near IR with a modified digicam and a low pass filter -
enough to make diagnosis of foliage diseases in trees perhaps but
nothing like enough to see temperature differences unless the target was
almost at red heat. I doubt if a soldering iron would show up at all on
a normal digicam CCD in the IR.

IIRC many common soldering irons run in the 600 F to 700 F range (not
all that far from visible glow) and may well output enough for a
modified digicam. I swear, that as child i could see the soldering
iron by its own glow (in the middle of the night when i woke for some
reason) some night when i left it plugged in.

Quote:

Can such a modified camera be used as a cheap thermal imager for industrial
purposes, such as looking for hot spots in equipment? Some application where
the temperature difference is large.

You can buy relatively cheap non contact IR thermometers and use a servo
to scan one to build up a low resolution thermal image.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Paul Keinanen
Guest

Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:48 pm

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:04:01 -0700, Fester Bestertester <fbt_at_fbt.net>
wrote:

Quote:

There are instructions on the 'net I've seen for removing the IR filter from
a digicam's digitizer chip so as to allow recording of the IR spectrum.

Commercial thermal imagers are thousands of dollars. They don't seem to be
anything more than a digicam with a broader spectrum (IR) sensor.

The peak wavelength for a black body radiator is simply inversely
proportional to the absolute temperature. At 6000 K (e.g. the Sun) the
maximum wavelength is about 0.5 um (yellow). The silicon camera
sensors have some kind of response to 2-3 um, corresponding to 1500 ..
1000 K. Humans and room temperature furniture are around 300 K, thus
the radiation peak is around 10 um, thus, ordinary glass is not very
transparent and ordinary silicon cells are useless.

The radiation drops quite quickly, when going from the peak towards
shorter wavelengths, but still this explains why the eye (400-700 nm
response) can detect some weak dark reddish radiation from object with
only 1000 K temperature (black body radiation peak at 3000 nm).

Paul

Lostgallifreyan
Guest

Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:12 pm

"JosephKK"<quiettechblue_at_yahoo.com> wrote in
news:jk4o751192hv04vit912ulhssfp7048dsl_at_4ax.com:

Quote:

IIRC many common soldering irons run in the 600 F to 700 F range (not
all that far from visible glow) and may well output enough for a
modified digicam. I swear, that as child i could see the soldering
iron by its own glow (in the middle of the night when i woke for some
reason) some night when i left it plugged in.

I believe it. I've seen them at times. I can't tell when sight ends and
imagination begins though, I tried.. > Smile

I have a nice temperature controlled
iron now so I'll try this again some time. Helps to try to see it with the
rods, not the cones, so at least thirty degrees to the side.

Lostgallifreyan
Guest

Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:28 pm

Paul Keinanen <keinanen_at_sci.fi> wrote in
news:ct7o75lrjq0424dc8fumn7hsl821he9nmb_at_4ax.com:

Quote:

weak dark reddish radiation from object with
only 1000 K

? 727°C? I remember from pottery classes in school that you get into a fierce
cherry red by that high. Nice confirmation here:

http://drjudywood.com/articles/aluminum/alumpics/htchar1.gif

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:29 pm

Lostgallifreyan wrote:

Quote:

Paul Keinanen <keinanen_at_sci.fi> wrote in
news:ct7o75lrjq0424dc8fumn7hsl821he9nmb_at_4ax.com:

weak dark reddish radiation from object with
only 1000 K

? 727°C? I remember from pottery classes in school that you get into a fierce
cherry red by that high. Nice confirmation here:

http://drjudywood.com/articles/aluminum/alumpics/htchar1.gif

White light at 1200 C? What a maroon. I think she applied the
conversion table backwards. Tungsten bulbs run 2800-3300 K.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net