Early Voltage problems

Jim Thompson
Guest

Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:16 pm

On Sat, 04 Sep 2010 07:44:48 -0500, "Nik"
<Nik_2213_at_n_o_s_p_a_m.n_o_s_p_a_m.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:

D'uh, can you see any hole in my methodology or logic ??

I've just been reminded that part of photo-current will flow via
Base-Collector junction. Why so much went via Base-Emitter is probably down
to the 'small' geometry...

D'uh, my bad...

---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.Electronics-Related.com

The way I read a 6N139 data sheet...

Tie VCC to GND

Treat VO as Collector

Treat VB as Base

Treat GND as Emitter

Measure BF

This BF will apply to both devices

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Democrats are best served up prepared as a hash
Otherwise the dogs will refuse to eat them Smile

Nik
Guest

Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:43 pm

After another deep search, I found a Spice model of related 6n140 at...
http://www.irtc-hq.com/pspicemodellibrary.html

The sub-circuit uses a near-generic LED, two generic 2n2222 Qn (BF=100, VAF
~75), a 5k Q2 E-B resistor and a polynomial 'G' function to match the
product's curves. It does not pretend to be a manufacturer's physical model
but I'm left with scant choice. Although my measurements imply that 6n139's
Q1 & Q2 are dissimilar, I'll have to model them as twins and adjust the CTR
to suit...

FWIW, there are models for some rare and unusual parts at that site,
including the classic 4n49 opto. No warranty intended or implied.

Per site's terms & conditions, I'll only post list of their models.

* Models included:
* UC1845 - UC1845 PWM controller
* 555 - 555 timer - fixes problems with PSpice library model
* HCPL5201 - Optocoupler
* HCPL5230 - Dual Optocoupler
* UC1707 - Dual Channel Power Driver IC
* MAX707 - µP Supervisory IC
* TC4427 - Buffer/driver
* UCC1802 - PWM controller IC
* UCC1804 - PWM controller IC
* D1N3611 - 1N3611 diode
* OPAMPIB - near-ideal op amp macromodel
* OPAMPIC - near-ideal op amp macromodel
* BUFST - Schmitt trigger digital buffer macromodel
* VREGD - 3-terminal ideal regulator macromodel
* COMPI - near-ideal comparator
* ILOADB - current load macromodel
* EILIM - voltage source with current limit macromodel
*

* Models included:
* LM117S - LM117 voltage regulator improved model
* 4N49N - 4N49 Optocoupler
* 6N140 - 6N140 Darlington Optocoupler
* PS2502 - PS2502 Optocoupler
* PS2501 - PS2501 Optocoupler
* 2823 - High voltage driver IC
* Q2N6058 - 2N6058 Darlington Power Transistor subcircuit
*

* Models included:
* Q2N3585 - 2N3585 NPN transistor
* Q2N3868 - 2N3868 PNP transistor
* Q2N3506 - 2N3506 NPN transistor
* Q2N6032 - 2N6032 NPN transistor
* Q2N5794 - 2N5794 NPN transistor
*
===
Most models look generic, but some are $nn format eg...
* UC1845 PWM controller IC *
* connections: pins 1 - 8 sequential (8-pin pkge.)
..SUBCKT UC1845 COMP VFB CS RTCT GND OUT VCC VREF
R_R1 VCC GND 1.4k
D_D7 GND VCC DZ34
R_R12 VCC $N_0001 10K
R_R13 $N_0001 VREF 60K
V_V1 $N_0002 GND DC 7.22V
X_U21 $N_0003 $N_0004 $G_DPWR $G_DGND BUFST
X_U7 $N_0004 $N_0005 $G_DPWR $G_DGND INV
R_R8 etc.

---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.Electronics-Related.com

Jim Thompson
Guest

Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:44 pm

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:43:42 -0500, "Nik"
<Nik_2213_at_n_o_s_p_a_m.n_o_s_p_a_m.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:

After another deep search, I found a Spice model of related 6n140 at...
http://www.irtc-hq.com/pspicemodellibrary.html

The sub-circuit uses a near-generic LED, two generic 2n2222 Qn (BF=100, VAF
~75), a 5k Q2 E-B resistor and a polynomial 'G' function to match the
product's curves. It does not pretend to be a manufacturer's physical model
but I'm left with scant choice. Although my measurements imply that 6n139's
Q1 & Q2 are dissimilar, I'll have to model them as twins and adjust the CTR
to suit...

FWIW, there are models for some rare and unusual parts at that site,
including the classic 4n49 opto. No warranty intended or implied.

Per site's terms & conditions, I'll only post list of their models.

* Models included:
* UC1845 - UC1845 PWM controller
* 555 - 555 timer - fixes problems with PSpice library model
* HCPL5201 - Optocoupler
* HCPL5230 - Dual Optocoupler
* UC1707 - Dual Channel Power Driver IC
* MAX707 - µP Supervisory IC
* TC4427 - Buffer/driver
* UCC1802 - PWM controller IC
* UCC1804 - PWM controller IC
* D1N3611 - 1N3611 diode
* OPAMPIB - near-ideal op amp macromodel
* OPAMPIC - near-ideal op amp macromodel
* BUFST - Schmitt trigger digital buffer macromodel
* VREGD - 3-terminal ideal regulator macromodel
* COMPI - near-ideal comparator
* ILOADB - current load macromodel
* EILIM - voltage source with current limit macromodel
*

* Models included:
* LM117S - LM117 voltage regulator improved model
* 4N49N - 4N49 Optocoupler
* 6N140 - 6N140 Darlington Optocoupler
* PS2502 - PS2502 Optocoupler
* PS2501 - PS2501 Optocoupler
* 2823 - High voltage driver IC
* Q2N6058 - 2N6058 Darlington Power Transistor subcircuit
*

* Models included:
* Q2N3585 - 2N3585 NPN transistor
* Q2N3868 - 2N3868 PNP transistor
* Q2N3506 - 2N3506 NPN transistor
* Q2N6032 - 2N6032 NPN transistor
* Q2N5794 - 2N5794 NPN transistor
*
===
Most models look generic, but some are $nn format eg...
* UC1845 PWM controller IC *
* connections: pins 1 - 8 sequential (8-pin pkge.)
SUBCKT UC1845 COMP VFB CS RTCT GND OUT VCC VREF
R_R1 VCC GND 1.4k
D_D7 GND VCC DZ34
R_R12 VCC $N_0001 10K
R_R13 $N_0001 VREF 60K
V_V1 $N_0002 GND DC 7.22V
X_U21 $N_0003 $N_0004 $G_DPWR $G_DGND BUFST
X_U7 $N_0004 $N_0005 $G_DPWR $G_DGND INV
R_R8 etc.

That's just a subcircuit that uses other part or subcircuit models...
DZ34, BUFST and INV.

Quote:

---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.Electronics-Related.com

How do you download? The download button stays gray Sad

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Nine years ago, on September 11, around 6AM, 4 telephone calls in
rapid succession, "Mom, Where's Dad, Is he flying?"
My wife woke me and turned on the television.
****
We will NEVER forget!
We WILL get even!
Destroy All Islamic Barbarians!
Start by applying salt to the Obama-slug Wink

Jim Thompson
Guest

Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:04 pm

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:44:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon_at_On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

Quote:

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:43:42 -0500, "Nik"
Nik_2213_at_n_o_s_p_a_m.n_o_s_p_a_m.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

After another deep search, I found a Spice model of related 6n140 at...
http://www.irtc-hq.com/pspicemodellibrary.html

The sub-circuit uses a near-generic LED, two generic 2n2222 Qn (BF=100, VAF
~75), a 5k Q2 E-B resistor and a polynomial 'G' function to match the
product's curves. It does not pretend to be a manufacturer's physical model
but I'm left with scant choice. Although my measurements imply that 6n139's
Q1 & Q2 are dissimilar, I'll have to model them as twins and adjust the CTR
to suit...

FWIW, there are models for some rare and unusual parts at that site,
including the classic 4n49 opto. No warranty intended or implied.

Per site's terms & conditions, I'll only post list of their models.

* Models included:
* UC1845 - UC1845 PWM controller
* 555 - 555 timer - fixes problems with PSpice library model
* HCPL5201 - Optocoupler
* HCPL5230 - Dual Optocoupler
* UC1707 - Dual Channel Power Driver IC
* MAX707 - µP Supervisory IC
* TC4427 - Buffer/driver
* UCC1802 - PWM controller IC
* UCC1804 - PWM controller IC
* D1N3611 - 1N3611 diode
* OPAMPIB - near-ideal op amp macromodel
* OPAMPIC - near-ideal op amp macromodel
* BUFST - Schmitt trigger digital buffer macromodel
* VREGD - 3-terminal ideal regulator macromodel
* COMPI - near-ideal comparator
* ILOADB - current load macromodel
* EILIM - voltage source with current limit macromodel
*

* Models included:
* LM117S - LM117 voltage regulator improved model
* 4N49N - 4N49 Optocoupler
* 6N140 - 6N140 Darlington Optocoupler
* PS2502 - PS2502 Optocoupler
* PS2501 - PS2501 Optocoupler
* 2823 - High voltage driver IC
* Q2N6058 - 2N6058 Darlington Power Transistor subcircuit
*

* Models included:
* Q2N3585 - 2N3585 NPN transistor
* Q2N3868 - 2N3868 PNP transistor
* Q2N3506 - 2N3506 NPN transistor
* Q2N6032 - 2N6032 NPN transistor
* Q2N5794 - 2N5794 NPN transistor
*
===
Most models look generic, but some are $nn format eg...
* UC1845 PWM controller IC *
* connections: pins 1 - 8 sequential (8-pin pkge.)
SUBCKT UC1845 COMP VFB CS RTCT GND OUT VCC VREF
R_R1 VCC GND 1.4k
D_D7 GND VCC DZ34
R_R12 VCC $N_0001 10K
R_R13 $N_0001 VREF 60K
V_V1 $N_0002 GND DC 7.22V
X_U21 $N_0003 $N_0004 $G_DPWR $G_DGND BUFST
X_U7 $N_0004 $N_0005 $G_DPWR $G_DGND INV
R_R8 etc.

That's just a subcircuit that uses other part or subcircuit models...
DZ34, BUFST and INV.

---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.Electronics-Related.com

How do you download? The download button stays gray Sad

Never mind... it suddenly decided to work ??

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Nine years ago, on September 11, around 6AM, 4 telephone calls in
rapid succession, "Mom, Where's Dad, Is he flying?"
My wife woke me and turned on the television.
****
We will NEVER forget!
We WILL get even!
Destroy All Islamic Barbarians!
Start by applying salt to the Obama-slug Wink

Jim Thompson
Guest

Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:32 pm

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:43:42 -0500, "Nik"
<Nik_2213_at_n_o_s_p_a_m.n_o_s_p_a_m.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:

After another deep search, I found a Spice model of related 6n140 at...
http://www.irtc-hq.com/pspicemodellibrary.html

The sub-circuit uses a near-generic LED, two generic 2n2222 Qn (BF=100, VAF
~75), a 5k Q2 E-B resistor and a polynomial 'G' function to match the
product's curves. It does not pretend to be a manufacturer's physical model
but I'm left with scant choice. Although my measurements imply that 6n139's
Q1 & Q2 are dissimilar, I'll have to model them as twins and adjust the CTR
to suit...

[snip]

Size scaling won't change the CTR _until_ some kind of crowding or
saturation occurs. What it mostly will affect is timing... due to
junction capacitances.

Did you try my suggestion:

Message-ID: <7av486d7f5qamimbn4dggebu73egacg6j9_at_4ax.com>

The way I read a 6N139 data sheet...

Tie VCC to GND

Treat VO as Collector

Treat VB as Base

Treat GND as Emitter

Measure BF

This BF will apply to both devices

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Nine years ago, on September 11, around 6AM, 4 telephone calls in
rapid succession, "Mom, Where's Dad, Is he flying?"
My wife woke me and turned on the television.
****
We will NEVER forget!
We WILL get even!
Destroy All Islamic Barbarians!
Start by applying salt to the Obama-slug Wink

Jan Panteltje
Guest

Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:47 pm

On a sunny day (Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:32:09 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon_at_On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
<tten869p4mvpa6ftqnnlcfsnt4koegjl31_at_4ax.com>:

Quote:

We will NEVER forget!

I doubt it, already you forgot is was GW Bush who ignored the intelligence warnings.

Quote:

We WILL get even!

8 years of republican rule did not find Osama.
You killed a lot of innocent people in Iraq though.

Quote:

Destroy All Islamic Barbarians!

So who is the real babarian?

Quote:

Start by applying salt to the Obama-slug Wink

He did not increase the deficit as much as your scream club did.
Clinton even had a surplus.

Nik
Guest

Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:32 pm

Some-one kindly pointed out that I'm only seeing part of the photo-current
as it will divide between the two PN junctions. So, my data is nonsense.
Why so much current went that-away is a puzzle. Also, the gains of the two
stages should be similar, so ~100 per my measurements of Q2. This means
that my researched '0.15~~0.16%' CTR is nonsense, too.

I've just found a 6n140 model at
http://www.irtc-hq.com/pspicemodellibrary.html
The 6n140 has a photo-diode driving a Darlington, but the Q2 has no
accessible base. Instead, an internal EB resistor ~5k aids pulse recovery.

IRTC's Subckt uses a tweaked LED, two generic 2n2222 NPNs (BF=100, VAF~74)
and a polynomial transfer function for curve matching. Yup, it is not a
'physical' model...

---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.Electronics-Related.com

Michael A. Terrell
Guest

Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:50 pm

Jan Panteltje wrote:

Quote:

8 years of republican rule did not find Osama.

Neither has Obama, but he sure goes on lots of vacations.

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Jim Thompson
Guest

Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:54 pm

On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:50:59 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell_at_earthlink.net> wrote:

Quote:

Jan Panteltje wrote:

8 years of republican rule did not find Osama.

Neither has Obama, but he sure goes on lots of vacations.

Don't feed the Panteltje troll. He's the _other_fairy_ in the
Nutterlands Smile