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Joerg
Guest
Guest
Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:14 pm
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Jan Panteltje
Guest
Guest
Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:24 pm
On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:14:29 -0700) it happened Joerg
<invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote in <8bm6dmF9dpU1_at_mid.individual.net>:
Quote:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
I dunno what stuff you use, but here it is very possible to add a frequency
or station, or sat.
That is both for satellite, terrestrial, both radio, TV, and data.
DTV is not 'unreliable', in fact is is very reliable, but it needs a minimal signal
strength for things to lock.
You should now about PLLs, Viterbi decoding, etc.
Did you ever put a decent yagi or some otehr good antenna on the roof?
Rich Webb
Guest
Guest
Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:30 pm
On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:14:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Quote:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
It depends entirely on how ... thoughtful? ... the firmware developers
were (or were allowed to be?). One of the converter boxes here (yup,
still have old analog CRTs) allows direct entry of the channel +
subchannel, either to view or to add. Another permits an "add new
channels" scan which only adds but won't delete existing ones if it
doesn't see them.
Other features are all over the map, as well. I did spring for a small,
modern LCD with ATSC tuner when one of the CRTs went poof. Yeah, it has
a super picture but it has an awful channel guide: only the current
program name and only for the current channel. And most of the time
(like, almost always) the displayed time of day and time of the program
are incorrect by hours -- with different offsets for different stations.
I'm guessing some programmer forgot his "#pragma packed" or something.
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
Joerg
Guest
Guest
Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Jan Panteltje wrote:
Quote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:14:29 -0700) it happened Joerg
invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote in <8bm6dmF9dpU1_at_mid.individual.net>:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
I dunno what stuff you use, but here it is very possible to add a frequency
or station, or sat.
invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote in <8bm6dmF9dpU1_at_mid.individual.net>:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
I dunno what stuff you use, but here it is very possible to add a frequency
or station, or sat.
Mostly the Magnavox brand. Which is AFAIK essentially Philips. But it
all seems designed and built by Funai. The lastest box it even says it
bluntly in the manual, "add-on" only for analog TV channels. Which no
longer exist out here when using terrestrial.
Quote:
That is both for satellite, terrestrial, both radio, TV, and data.
DTV is not 'unreliable', in fact is is very reliable, but it needs a minimal signal
strength for things to lock.
DTV is not 'unreliable', in fact is is very reliable, but it needs a minimal signal
strength for things to lock.
ATSC is unreliable. Ask any neighbor here who uses an antenna.
Quote:
You should now about PLLs, Viterbi decoding, etc.
I do, but it seems the guys who developed and tested ATSC (or shall I
say didn't test enough?) may not :-)
Quote:
Did you ever put a decent yagi or some otehr good antenna on the roof?
Yep, top of the line ChannelMaster. The biggest honking one there is.
With mast amp, professional distribution and so on.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Joerg
Guest
Guest
Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:48 pm
Rich Webb wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:14:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid
wrote:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
It depends entirely on how ... thoughtful? ... the firmware developers
were (or were allowed to be?). One of the converter boxes here (yup,
still have old analog CRTs) allows direct entry of the channel +
subchannel, either to view or to add. Another permits an "add new
channels" scan which only adds but won't delete existing ones if it
doesn't see them.
wrote:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
It depends entirely on how ... thoughtful? ... the firmware developers
were (or were allowed to be?). One of the converter boxes here (yup,
still have old analog CRTs) allows direct entry of the channel +
subchannel, either to view or to add. Another permits an "add new
channels" scan which only adds but won't delete existing ones if it
doesn't see them.
I helped set up one LCD-TV that could add on DTV channels. The others
didn't :-(
Quote:
Other features are all over the map, as well. I did spring for a small,
modern LCD with ATSC tuner when one of the CRTs went poof. Yeah, it has
a super picture but it has an awful channel guide: only the current
program name and only for the current channel. And most of the time
(like, almost always) the displayed time of day and time of the program
are incorrect by hours -- with different offsets for different stations.
I'm guessing some programmer forgot his "#pragma packed" or something.
modern LCD with ATSC tuner when one of the CRTs went poof. Yeah, it has
a super picture but it has an awful channel guide: only the current
program name and only for the current channel. And most of the time
(like, almost always) the displayed time of day and time of the program
are incorrect by hours -- with different offsets for different stations.
I'm guessing some programmer forgot his "#pragma packed" or something.
What I am wondering is whether any of this stuff ever gets test-driven
in the field. In the areas I work in (med, aero, and similar) that is
mandatory and deficiencies like this would hit the fan almost instantly.
The sad thing is, I've even seen similar things happen with "modern" lab
equipment. Which is why I often recommend to my clients to shun new
stuff and look for a particular boat anchor at liquidations or auctions.
They don't make'em like that no more.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Jan Panteltje
Guest
Guest
Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:43 pm
On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:40:16 -0700) it happened Joerg
<invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote in <8bm7u2Fi4rU1_at_mid.individual.net>:
Quote:
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
I dunno what stuff you use, but here it is very possible to add a frequency
or station, or sat.
Mostly the Magnavox brand. Which is AFAIK essentially Philips. But it
all seems designed and built by Funai. The lastest box it even says it
bluntly in the manual, "add-on" only for analog TV channels. Which no
longer exist out here when using terrestrial.
That is both for satellite, terrestrial, both radio, TV, and data.
DTV is not 'unreliable', in fact is is very reliable, but it needs a minimal signal
strength for things to lock.
ATSC is unreliable. Ask any neighbor here who uses an antenna.
I dunno what stuff you use, but here it is very possible to add a frequency
or station, or sat.
Mostly the Magnavox brand. Which is AFAIK essentially Philips. But it
all seems designed and built by Funai. The lastest box it even says it
bluntly in the manual, "add-on" only for analog TV channels. Which no
longer exist out here when using terrestrial.
That is both for satellite, terrestrial, both radio, TV, and data.
DTV is not 'unreliable', in fact is is very reliable, but it needs a minimal signal
strength for things to lock.
ATSC is unreliable. Ask any neighbor here who uses an antenna.
Sorry to hear that, I did read they improved multipath, maybe not enough.
Quote:
You should now about PLLs, Viterbi decoding, etc.
I do, but it seems the guys who developed and tested ATSC (or shall I
say didn't test enough?) may not
I do, but it seems the guys who developed and tested ATSC (or shall I
say didn't test enough?) may not
Politics played some role there I am sure.
US had to use their own system.
OTOH they say the distances are bigger than in Europe, making 8VSB a better choice.
I have no experience with that system, so I dunno if that is reality.
Quote:
Did you ever put a decent yagi or some otehr good antenna on the roof?
Yep, top of the line ChannelMaster. The biggest honking one there is.
With mast amp, professional distribution and so on.
Nice, should really work.
Only thing I can say about it is that I love satellite.
With many many free programs here in Europe I guess we are spoiled.
I just watched starwars II, I have it on disc also, but it still is a big show.
My advice is to use a PC card and or PC as receiver, both for terrestrial and satellite.
The quality blew me aways this time, satellite, zero bit errors,.
There is a lot of soft for those PC cards that allow you to do many things commercial receivers
cannot do, tweak things.
Some written by me
There is a cute little program in Linux called 'mediainfo'.
I just ran it in that starwars recording:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6273528980 2010-08-01 23:20 Astra1_prosieben.20h13.1-8-2010-187m.ts
grml: /mnt/hdd4/video/satellite # mediainfo Astra1_prosieben.20h13.1-8-2010-187m.ts
General
Complete name : Astra1_prosieben.20h13.1-8-2010-187m.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
Format profile : No PAT/PMT
File size : 5.84 GiB
Duration : 3h 7mn
Overall bit rate : 4 473 Kbps
Video
ID : 511 (0x1FF)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main_at_Main
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 3 586 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 15.0 Mbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.346
Stream size : 4.68 GiB (80%)
Audio #1
ID : 512 (0x200)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Video delay : -407ms
Stream size : 257 MiB (4%)
Audio #2
ID : 515 (0x203)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -377ms
Stream size : 514 MiB (9%)
As you see it is much longer than the movie, because of the commercials.
Because I view about an hour timeshifted I just fast forward the commercials,
or more precisely just jump over those in xine.
The PC as media server is cool,
Joel Koltner
Guest
Guest
Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:59 am
Say Jan,
Since you're doing media encoding on Linux, might I ask: Do you have a
favorite MP3 encoder that runs on fixed-point CPUs (...such as ARMs...)?
LAME seems to very much be the defacto standard on floating-point machines,
but I've read that it really crawls if there's isn't an actual floating-point
ALU around and software emulation is being used.
Thanks,
---Joel
Joerg
Guest
Guest
Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:01 am
Jan Panteltje wrote:
Quote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:40:16 -0700) it happened Joerg
invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote in <8bm7u2Fi4rU1_at_mid.individual.net>:
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
I dunno what stuff you use, but here it is very possible to add a frequency
or station, or sat.
Mostly the Magnavox brand. Which is AFAIK essentially Philips. But it
all seems designed and built by Funai. The lastest box it even says it
bluntly in the manual, "add-on" only for analog TV channels. Which no
longer exist out here when using terrestrial.
That is both for satellite, terrestrial, both radio, TV, and data.
DTV is not 'unreliable', in fact is is very reliable, but it needs a minimal signal
strength for things to lock.
ATSC is unreliable. Ask any neighbor here who uses an antenna.
Sorry to hear that, I did read they improved multipath, maybe not enough.
invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote in <8bm7u2Fi4rU1_at_mid.individual.net>:
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
I dunno what stuff you use, but here it is very possible to add a frequency
or station, or sat.
Mostly the Magnavox brand. Which is AFAIK essentially Philips. But it
all seems designed and built by Funai. The lastest box it even says it
bluntly in the manual, "add-on" only for analog TV channels. Which no
longer exist out here when using terrestrial.
That is both for satellite, terrestrial, both radio, TV, and data.
DTV is not 'unreliable', in fact is is very reliable, but it needs a minimal signal
strength for things to lock.
ATSC is unreliable. Ask any neighbor here who uses an antenna.
Sorry to hear that, I did read they improved multipath, maybe not enough.
It ain't good enough for multipath. Analog was better, way better.
Quote:
You should now about PLLs, Viterbi decoding, etc.
I do, but it seems the guys who developed and tested ATSC (or shall I
say didn't test enough?) may not :-)
Politics played some role there I am sure.
US had to use their own system.
OTOH they say the distances are bigger than in Europe, making 8VSB a better choice.
I have no experience with that system, so I dunno if that is reality.
It probably has other reasons as well. For example, people really want
hi-def, meaning 1080 interlaced or progressive scan. And I have to say,
if the channel doesn't pixelate out on us and a hi-def event like
"Dancing with the Stars" airs the picture is truly stunning.
Quote:
Did you ever put a decent yagi or some otehr good antenna on the roof?
Yep, top of the line ChannelMaster. The biggest honking one there is.
With mast amp, professional distribution and so on.
Nice, should really work.
Only thing I can say about it is that I love satellite.
With many many free programs here in Europe I guess we are spoiled.
In the US we do not have free satellite :-(
Quote:
I just watched starwars II, I have it on disc also, but it still is a big show.
My advice is to use a PC card and or PC as receiver, both for terrestrial and satellite.
My advice is to use a PC card and or PC as receiver, both for terrestrial and satellite.
Nah. I just wired up this new Magnavox box. Like the one before it has
upconversion and all that.
A PC in the living room? Yuck. The most we ever do is connect one to
watch photos, a laptop, via a VGA cable tucked behind a cabinet.
Quote:
The quality blew me aways this time, satellite, zero bit errors,.
There is a lot of soft for those PC cards that allow you to do many things commercial receivers
cannot do, tweak things.
Some written by me
There is a cute little program in Linux called 'mediainfo'.
I just ran it in that starwars recording:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6273528980 2010-08-01 23:20 Astra1_prosieben.20h13.1-8-2010-187m.ts
grml: /mnt/hdd4/video/satellite # mediainfo Astra1_prosieben.20h13.1-8-2010-187m.ts
General
Complete name : Astra1_prosieben.20h13.1-8-2010-187m.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
Format profile : No PAT/PMT
File size : 5.84 GiB
Duration : 3h 7mn
Overall bit rate : 4 473 Kbps
Video
ID : 511 (0x1FF)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main_at_Main
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 3 586 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 15.0 Mbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
There is a lot of soft for those PC cards that allow you to do many things commercial receivers
cannot do, tweak things.
Some written by me
There is a cute little program in Linux called 'mediainfo'.
I just ran it in that starwars recording:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6273528980 2010-08-01 23:20 Astra1_prosieben.20h13.1-8-2010-187m.ts
grml: /mnt/hdd4/video/satellite # mediainfo Astra1_prosieben.20h13.1-8-2010-187m.ts
General
Complete name : Astra1_prosieben.20h13.1-8-2010-187m.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
Format profile : No PAT/PMT
File size : 5.84 GiB
Duration : 3h 7mn
Overall bit rate : 4 473 Kbps
Video
ID : 511 (0x1FF)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main_at_Main
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 3 586 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 15.0 Mbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Hmm, we get a lot more resolution than that these days.
Quote:
Display aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.346
Stream size : 4.68 GiB (80%)
Audio #1
ID : 512 (0x200)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Video delay : -407ms
Stream size : 257 MiB (4%)
Audio #2
ID : 515 (0x203)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -377ms
Stream size : 514 MiB (9%)
As you see it is much longer than the movie, because of the commercials.
Because I view about an hour timeshifted I just fast forward the commercials,
or more precisely just jump over those in xine.
The PC as media server is cool,
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.346
Stream size : 4.68 GiB (80%)
Audio #1
ID : 512 (0x200)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Video delay : -407ms
Stream size : 257 MiB (4%)
Audio #2
ID : 515 (0x203)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -377ms
Stream size : 514 MiB (9%)
As you see it is much longer than the movie, because of the commercials.
Because I view about an hour timeshifted I just fast forward the commercials,
or more precisely just jump over those in xine.
The PC as media server is cool,
Yeah, but you can do the same thing with a DVD recorder. Ok, time shift
must be longer than the total play time including commercials. But that
is never a problem because we watch one movie in the evening and that's it.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Joel Koltner
Guest
Guest
Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:11 am
"Joerg" <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:8bm6dmF9dpU1_at_mid.individual.net...
Quote:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"?
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"?
Because not only are the end-users considered to be dumber today, but I
suspect a lot of the designers and engineering managers are as well!
There's at least a silver lining that it's generally easier to figure out,
e.g., which models *do* still assume you, the user, have at least a half-dozen
brain cells still functioning than it would have been 20+ years ago.
---Joel
Jim Thompson
Guest
Guest
Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:13 am
On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:11:21 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
<zapwireDASHgroups_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
"Joerg" <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:8bm6dmF9dpU1_at_mid.individual.net...
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"?
Because not only are the end-users considered to be dumber today, but I
suspect a lot of the designers and engineering managers are as well!
There's at least a silver lining that it's generally easier to figure out,
e.g., which models *do* still assume you, the user, have at least a half-dozen
brain cells still functioning than it would have been 20+ years ago.
---Joel
news:8bm6dmF9dpU1_at_mid.individual.net...
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"?
Because not only are the end-users considered to be dumber today, but I
suspect a lot of the designers and engineering managers are as well!
There's at least a silver lining that it's generally easier to figure out,
e.g., which models *do* still assume you, the user, have at least a half-dozen
brain cells still functioning than it would have been 20+ years ago.
---Joel
DTV = "Dumber TV" ?
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
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Spice is like a sports car...
Performance only as good as the person behind the wheel.
Joel Koltner
Guest
Guest
Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:41 am
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon_at_On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:fs6c5614fvsb404ao5l2brh9ml5nj56a1h_at_4ax.com...
Quote:
DTV = "Dumber TV" ?
Something like that... I'm not sure the total "quality" of TV productoin has
risen much over time, whereas the number of channels certainly has, so the
"quality" ends off awfully thin on many a channel...
If you want to watch what I consider to at least be chortle-invoking TV,
there's at least Penn & Teller's "Bullshit!" on Showtime.
....which I actually don't subscribe to, but I do own the DVDs. Season six
(2008, I think --
http://www.amazon.com/Penn-Teller-Bullsh-Complete-Season/product-reviews/B001S86J0S )
was quite entertaining... folks who think dolphins are magical critters, the
green movement, sensitivity training, etc.
A surprising number of the folks who engage in these, mmm... "alternative
lifestyles" seem to prefer to live in your own state, for some reason
.
Let me know if you'd like to borrow a DVD and I can send it down your way...
---Joel
Kevin McMurtrie
Guest
Guest
Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:43 am
In article <8bm6dmF9dpU1_at_mid.individual.net>,
Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote:
Quote:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
Some tuners will let you punch in the real channel in analog mode. For
example, I can type "4 5 ENTER" (no dash makes it analog) and it will
hop to 44-1. I use the trick to get Sacto stations that won't show up
in a scan but are viewable at night.
I wish I could delete obsolete mappings.
--
I won't see Google Groups replies because I must filter them as spam
Robert Baer
Guest
Guest
Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:45 am
Joerg wrote:
Quote:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
Better yet, there should be a MANUAL ADD channel option...
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?
Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.
Better yet, there should be a MANUAL ADD channel option...
Jan Panteltje
Guest
Guest
Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:53 pm
On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:01:01 -0700) it happened Joerg
<invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote in <8bmjmfFeq1U1_at_mid.individual.net>:
Quote:
Sorry to hear that, I did read they improved multipath, maybe not enough.
It ain't good enough for multipath. Analog was better, way better.
It ain't good enough for multipath. Analog was better, way better.
Even PAL, that still gave a picture when it was almost 100% noise,
was sufficient perhaps to see what was 'going on', cannot compare in quality
to high bitrate DVB-T.
Quote:
You should now about PLLs, Viterbi decoding, etc.
I do, but it seems the guys who developed and tested ATSC (or shall I
say didn't test enough?) may not :-)
Politics played some role there I am sure.
US had to use their own system.
OTOH they say the distances are bigger than in Europe, making 8VSB a better choice.
I have no experience with that system, so I dunno if that is reality.
It probably has other reasons as well. For example, people really want
hi-def, meaning 1080 interlaced or progressive scan. And I have to say,
if the channel doesn't pixelate out on us and a hi-def event like
"Dancing with the Stars" airs the picture is truly stunning.
I do not see the connection between 8VSB and hi-def you are making?
Quote:
In the US we do not have free satellite 
Time to pack up and go Germany again :-)
Quote:
I just watched starwars II, I have it on disc also, but it still is a big show.
My advice is to use a PC card and or PC as receiver, both for terrestrial and satellite.
Nah. I just wired up this new Magnavox box. Like the one before it has
upconversion and all that.
A PC in the living room? Yuck. The most we ever do is connect one to
watch photos, a laptop, via a VGA cable tucked behind a cabinet.
I have a small box for DVB-T (terrestrial), it has an USB connection.
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/haupppauge66.gif
I even installed a new kernel on the eeePC that can use it, so how big is that?
Of course the media centre PC is much bigger,
But many modern laptops have a HDMI output, would not be a problem, and you would be able to tweak things
in software.
Add an other box, a 1TB external harddisk.
Does not look so bad.
Quote:
Duration : 3h 7mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 3 586 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 15.0 Mbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Hmm, we get a lot more resolution than that these days.
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 3 586 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 15.0 Mbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Hmm, we get a lot more resolution than that these days.
So do we, the same station is available in HD too, but I think it is encrypted, look for 'ProSieben HD':
http://nl.kingofsat.net/find.php?question=prosieben&Submit=Zap
Now the fun part is, they finally bought HD capable scanners it seems.
So now at least the normal 720p is top resolution (it always was low detail).
And free.
Unless you have 20/20 vision and a real big screen you cannot see the difference anyways
So that saves money
TV is far more advanced here, Sky will start broadcasting in 3D HD shortly.
Quote:
As you see it is much longer than the movie, because of the commercials.
Because I view about an hour timeshifted I just fast forward the commercials,
or more precisely just jump over those in xine.
The PC as media server is cool,
Yeah, but you can do the same thing with a DVD recorder. Ok, time shift
must be longer than the total play time including commercials. But that
is never a problem because we watch one movie in the evening and that's it.
Because I view about an hour timeshifted I just fast forward the commercials,
or more precisely just jump over those in xine.
The PC as media server is cool,
Yeah, but you can do the same thing with a DVD recorder. Ok, time shift
must be longer than the total play time including commercials. But that
is never a problem because we watch one movie in the evening and that's it.
TV recording and processing with a PC has way more possibilities.
Paul Keinanen
Guest
Guest
Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:18 pm
On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:14:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Quote:
Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.
You seem to suffer from frequency selective fading, which is typical
in multipath conditions. This may eliminate the signal with sharp
notches (usually less than 1 MHz) and these notches are constantly
moving around the TV band when the propagation condition changes.
Thus, a few channels are suffering from multipath nulls during each
channel scan and hence, these are not stored.
The 8VSB modulation used in ATSC is not known for robustness in
multipath situations. The help the situation, an equalizer is used at
the receiver that tries to compensate for the amplitude and phase
errors created by the RF path. The equalizer needs a known training
signal so that the equalizer parameters can be set up correctly. There
have been claims that with 5th (or was it 6th or 7th
generation
equalizers, the multipath performance is similar to COFDM DVB-T.
Apparently the 8VSB equalizer can somewhat track the slow RF-channel
parameter changes (starting the training session from previously known
good parameters), but during the initial channel scan, the equalizer
parameters are completely unknown for each new channel, the equalizer
is not capable of making any sense of some of the signals, even if the
amplitude is quite strong.
My guess is that if you connect a spectrum analyzer to your antenna
signal, it will show a comb filter like spectrum.
Diversity receivers are available in DVB-T countries mainly for in-car
receivers, but do you have diversity receivers for ATSC ?
Having two antenna towers at slightly different locations (at least
some wavelengths from each other) will have a different multipath
pattern. When one antenna and receiver drops out, the signal may be
good at the other antenna.
Even simple RF summing of two antenna signals at different locations
may help avoiding deep nulls.
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