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George Herold
Guest

Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:45 pm   



On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:27:10 PM UTC-5, piglet wrote:
Quote:
On 08/01/2019 17:28, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. januar 2019 kl. 11.09.34 UTC+1 skrev piglet:
On 08/01/2019 00:52, George Herold wrote:
Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.


An identical sensor outside the field and take the difference?


or different with two sensors in the field, one of them flipped


Yes, that is even better as the signal is doubled.

piglet


Right! I'll give it a try tomorrow. (doing boring layout stuff today.)

George H.

piglet
Guest

Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:45 pm   



On 08/01/2019 17:28, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Quote:
tirsdag den 8. januar 2019 kl. 11.09.34 UTC+1 skrev piglet:
On 08/01/2019 00:52, George Herold wrote:
Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.


An identical sensor outside the field and take the difference?


or different with two sensors in the field, one of them flipped


Yes, that is even better as the signal is doubled.

piglet

whit3rd
Guest

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:45 pm   



On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 5:56:54 PM UTC-8, George Herold wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V background from a few mV signal.

Most important, if the signal is to be amplified, is to match the value and
drift of the offset source.

Re 'signal source'. Right! I was looking at that today.
one of these, (I think, may be a different part number)
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/allegro-microsystems-llc/A1324LUA-T/620-1432-ND/2728144
Ugly output spectrum, dominate peaks at ~100 kHz and 1MHz...


Yep, that's gonna be hard on the small signals. The 'quiescent output' graph, though, looks
good over temperature. That bodes well for resistor divider (and common regulated power
supply) compensation. Be sure to keep stress off the wires when testing (there's 'package
hysteresis' warnings, related to mechanical stress). That is always a concern in Hall
devices.


Guest

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:45 pm   



On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 2:09:04 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Quote:
On 1/8/19 1:53 PM, bloggs.fredbloggs.fred_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:52:59 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:37:48 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:23 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
George Herold wrote:


Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V
background from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp,
or instrument amp.
But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)



** Considered using a capacitor ??




.... Phil

Like a sample and hold? It needs to hold the offset
sorta forever, so a pot called for.

George H.


DC blocking capacitor. Y'know, like a high-pass on the input.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he7zy2rdhomfveh/IMG_20190107_193244554_HDR..jpg?dl=0

Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.

There should be some handheld VOMs that will do statistics on signals like this. And they produce downloadable acquisition files for USB. Probably something available at HomeDepot :-)


Big waste of bits though. A nice noninverting chopamp with high DC
open-loop gain will do an excellent job of preserving those bits. Two
30-dB gain stages, or a 60-dB composite amp with a nice fast 40-dB stage
inside the loop is good medicine for that sort of job. An OPA188 for
the outer loop and an LM6171A inside would probably be a decent choice,
and yield a bandwidth of around 200 kHz. Using the composite amp
improves the low frequency characteristics on account of eliminating the
loading on the outer amp and increasing the DC loop gain. (Making the
inner stage a lead/lag amp, i.e. putting a capacitor in series with the
feedback resistor, will greatly increase the DC gain again.


That's ridiculous. This product, which is very economically priced, gets 12-bit resolution on differential analog input (multiple channels), and has analog output channels which can provide a programmable reference for the differential conversion. Sample rate max's out at 50ksps and can be streamed into the laptop via USB. It does a bunch of other stuff too, looks like a good catch-all gadget for the lab. Input range seems a bit limited for this application, but he should be able to figure something out. No waste of bits here.
https://labjack.com/products/u3

Quote:

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net


John Larkin
Guest

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:45 pm   



On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:03:59 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless_at_electrooptical.net> wrote:

Quote:
On 1/8/19 8:51 AM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:44:16 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 1/7/19 8:27 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:01:28 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:52 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:37:48 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:23 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
George Herold wrote:


Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V
background from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp,
or instrument amp.
But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)



** Considered using a capacitor ??




.... Phil

Like a sample and hold? It needs to hold the offset
sorta forever, so a pot called for.

George H.


DC blocking capacitor. Y'know, like a high-pass on the input.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he7zy2rdhomfveh/IMG_20190107_193244554_HDR.jpg?dl=0

Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.


Got it, I figured you had not forgotten how to use a capacitor to block
DC but just so long as we cover all the bases here and the signal period
wasn't mentioned explicitly ;)

Oh dear no, big C, big R and fet opamp.. about 1 second is the longest
TC I can wait for. (10uF and 100k or 1uF and a meg.)
I was doing that today to look at power supply noise.
I think most of the circuits I build are 'scope preamps. :^)
I've never done the feedback cap thing, (you posted previoulsy),
looks like a Sallen-Key.

George H.


If you want to amplify the signal by N times and the offset by 1x (so
that you're still biased above ground), that's easy to do accurately
with a garden-variety noninverting amp.

I don't really care where the signal level is, I just want to look at
(small) changes. I'm trying to picture how a non-iverting amp
does this, but can't. Can you give me more of a hint?

George H.

A noninverting gain of N amplifier is also an inverting gain of N-1
amplifier, and the 1 is very accurate when the loop gain is high. Thus
if you have an offset of 2.50000V, connecting the input resistor of the
op amp (on the inverting side) to your offset generator and the
noninverting input to signal+offset, you get

Vout = (N+1)(Vos + Vsig) - N Vos = Vos + N Vsig.

This is just like the usual split-supply, single-ended noninverting amp,
except with the ground reference relabelled. Resistor inaccuracy causes
gain inaccuracy, but the offset remains correct.

This move is super common in single-supply data acq circuits, for instance.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


That's a nice concept: get some single-ended gain first, then take out
the common-mode.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8aw9g0sd5tcf3s1/Diffamp_2-stage.JPG?dl=0

One can even bootstrap the supplies of the first stage.

I've done this to pick off NMR gradient coil current shunts, where
CMRR has to be extreme.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:45 am   



On 1/8/19 5:10 PM, John Larkin wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:03:59 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless_at_electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 1/8/19 8:51 AM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:44:16 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 1/7/19 8:27 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:01:28 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:52 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:37:48 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:23 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
George Herold wrote:


Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V
background from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp,
or instrument amp.
But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)



** Considered using a capacitor ??




.... Phil

Like a sample and hold? It needs to hold the offset
sorta forever, so a pot called for.

George H.


DC blocking capacitor. Y'know, like a high-pass on the input.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he7zy2rdhomfveh/IMG_20190107_193244554_HDR.jpg?dl=0

Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.


Got it, I figured you had not forgotten how to use a capacitor to block
DC but just so long as we cover all the bases here and the signal period
wasn't mentioned explicitly ;)

Oh dear no, big C, big R and fet opamp.. about 1 second is the longest
TC I can wait for. (10uF and 100k or 1uF and a meg.)
I was doing that today to look at power supply noise.
I think most of the circuits I build are 'scope preamps. :^)
I've never done the feedback cap thing, (you posted previoulsy),
looks like a Sallen-Key.

George H.


If you want to amplify the signal by N times and the offset by 1x (so
that you're still biased above ground), that's easy to do accurately
with a garden-variety noninverting amp.

I don't really care where the signal level is, I just want to look at
(small) changes. I'm trying to picture how a non-iverting amp
does this, but can't. Can you give me more of a hint?

George H.

A noninverting gain of N amplifier is also an inverting gain of N-1
amplifier, and the 1 is very accurate when the loop gain is high. Thus
if you have an offset of 2.50000V, connecting the input resistor of the
op amp (on the inverting side) to your offset generator and the
noninverting input to signal+offset, you get

Vout = (N+1)(Vos + Vsig) - N Vos = Vos + N Vsig.

This is just like the usual split-supply, single-ended noninverting amp,
except with the ground reference relabelled. Resistor inaccuracy causes
gain inaccuracy, but the offset remains correct.

This move is super common in single-supply data acq circuits, for instance.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

That's a nice concept: get some single-ended gain first, then take out
the common-mode.


It's basically the single-ended version of the first stage of an
instrumentation amp.

Quote:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8aw9g0sd5tcf3s1/Diffamp_2-stage.JPG?dl=0

One can even bootstrap the supplies of the first stage.

I've done this to pick off NMR gradient coil current shunts, where
CMRR has to be extreme.


Yup. I do it all the time in front ends, where the first stage has no
positive CMR otherwise.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:45 am   



On 1/8/19 4:57 PM, bloggs.fredbloggs.fred_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 2:09:04 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 1/8/19 1:53 PM, bloggs.fredbloggs.fred_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:52:59 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:37:48 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:23 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
George Herold wrote:


Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V
background from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp,
or instrument amp.
But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)



** Considered using a capacitor ??




.... Phil

Like a sample and hold? It needs to hold the offset
sorta forever, so a pot called for.

George H.


DC blocking capacitor. Y'know, like a high-pass on the input.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he7zy2rdhomfveh/IMG_20190107_193244554_HDR..jpg?dl=0

Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.

There should be some handheld VOMs that will do statistics on signals like this. And they produce downloadable acquisition files for USB. Probably something available at HomeDepot :-)


Big waste of bits though. A nice noninverting chopamp with high DC
open-loop gain will do an excellent job of preserving those bits. Two
30-dB gain stages, or a 60-dB composite amp with a nice fast 40-dB stage
inside the loop is good medicine for that sort of job. An OPA188 for
the outer loop and an LM6171A inside would probably be a decent choice,
and yield a bandwidth of around 200 kHz. Using the composite amp
improves the low frequency characteristics on account of eliminating the
loading on the outer amp and increasing the DC loop gain. (Making the
inner stage a lead/lag amp, i.e. putting a capacitor in series with the
feedback resistor, will greatly increase the DC gain again.

That's ridiculous. This product, which is very economically priced, gets 12-bit resolution on differential analog input (multiple channels), and has analog output channels which can provide a programmable reference for the differential conversion. Sample rate max's out at 50ksps and can be streamed into the laptop via USB. It does a bunch of other stuff too, looks like a good catch-all gadget for the lab. Input range seems a bit limited for this application, but he should be able to figure something out. No waste of bits here.
https://labjack.com/products/u3


I'm a fan of Labjacks--I have three U6 Pros from various projects.

The waste of bits is that the signal is hundreds of times smaller than
the offset. With a 2.5 mV signal on a 2.5V offset, your 12 bits just
turned into four. Using its PWM outputs to subtract off the pedestal
isn't much of an improvement if you don't know how big it is *a priori*.

Just a noninverting amp solves that problem completely for a buck.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

George Herold
Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:45 am   



On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 4:57:59 PM UTC-5, bloggs.fred...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 2:09:04 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 1/8/19 1:53 PM, bloggs.fredbloggs.fred_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:52:59 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:37:48 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:23 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
George Herold wrote:


Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V
background from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp,
or instrument amp.
But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)



** Considered using a capacitor ??




.... Phil

Like a sample and hold? It needs to hold the offset
sorta forever, so a pot called for.

George H.


DC blocking capacitor. Y'know, like a high-pass on the input.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he7zy2rdhomfveh/IMG_20190107_193244554_HDR.jpg?dl=0

Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.

There should be some handheld VOMs that will do statistics on signals like this. And they produce downloadable acquisition files for USB. Probably something available at HomeDepot :-)


Big waste of bits though. A nice noninverting chopamp with high DC
open-loop gain will do an excellent job of preserving those bits. Two
30-dB gain stages, or a 60-dB composite amp with a nice fast 40-dB stage
inside the loop is good medicine for that sort of job. An OPA188 for
the outer loop and an LM6171A inside would probably be a decent choice,
and yield a bandwidth of around 200 kHz. Using the composite amp
improves the low frequency characteristics on account of eliminating the
loading on the outer amp and increasing the DC loop gain. (Making the
inner stage a lead/lag amp, i.e. putting a capacitor in series with the
feedback resistor, will greatly increase the DC gain again.

That's ridiculous. This product, which is very economically priced, gets 12-bit resolution on differential analog input (multiple channels), and has analog output channels which can provide a programmable reference for the differential conversion. Sample rate max's out at 50ksps and can be streamed into the laptop via USB. It does a bunch of other stuff too, looks like a good catch-all gadget for the lab. Input range seems a bit limited for this application, but he should be able to figure something out. No waste of bits here.
https://labjack.com/products/u3

I like my lab jack... I mostly just use it as a data logger,
which is a waste of a lot of nice kit.

George H.

Quote:


Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net


George Herold
Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:45 am   



On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:56:54 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
Quote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:10:13 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 4:37:01 PM UTC-8, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:00:41 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 02:31 PM, George Herold wrote:
Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V background from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp, or
instrument amp. But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)


Wheatstone bridge, blocking capacitor, differential amplifier, even transformer
coupling can do this task. I've seen a series battery with potentiometer to do a DC offset.

For splitting a 5V supply, consider using a two-resistor array (matched tempco)
in addition to a trimpot, the drift and aging will improve.

Most important, if the signal is to be amplified, is to match the value and
drift of the offset source. Second most important, is not to distort the
signal in the process.

Re 'signal source'. Right! I was looking at that today.
one of these, (I think, may be a different part number)
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/allegro-microsystems-llc/A1324LUA-T/620-1432-ND/2728144
Ugly output spectrum, dominate peaks at ~100 kHz and 1MHz...
with harmonics everywhere.

Sorry, the above is mostly BS. A three pin device and I had it
hooked up wrong. Fundamental at 84 kHz on the shoulder of
1/f noise that looks to have and even higher corner.
All the spectra modified by opamp GBW limit,
and on a 'scope FFT* Hamming window.

George H.

*The keysight guys took their 'scope back, whatever deal there is hasn't
happened yet.. thinking maybe I should buy one of my own,
Infivision 1000 2 chan 100Mhz. ~$1k.
And woah a four chan. version! What's the price tag?
https://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?cc=US&lc=eng



Quote:
(And that was after gain of 100 opamp (~1MHz GBW).)
The allegro has a chopamp inside.

George H.


George Herold
Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:45 am   



On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 5:10:44 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:03:59 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless_at_electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 1/8/19 8:51 AM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:44:16 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 1/7/19 8:27 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:01:28 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:52 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:37:48 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:23 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
George Herold wrote:


Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V
background from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp,
or instrument amp.
But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)



** Considered using a capacitor ??




.... Phil

Like a sample and hold? It needs to hold the offset
sorta forever, so a pot called for.

George H.


DC blocking capacitor. Y'know, like a high-pass on the input.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he7zy2rdhomfveh/IMG_20190107_193244554_HDR.jpg?dl=0

Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.


Got it, I figured you had not forgotten how to use a capacitor to block
DC but just so long as we cover all the bases here and the signal period
wasn't mentioned explicitly ;)

Oh dear no, big C, big R and fet opamp.. about 1 second is the longest
TC I can wait for. (10uF and 100k or 1uF and a meg.)
I was doing that today to look at power supply noise.
I think most of the circuits I build are 'scope preamps. :^)
I've never done the feedback cap thing, (you posted previoulsy),
looks like a Sallen-Key.

George H.


If you want to amplify the signal by N times and the offset by 1x (so
that you're still biased above ground), that's easy to do accurately
with a garden-variety noninverting amp.

I don't really care where the signal level is, I just want to look at
(small) changes. I'm trying to picture how a non-iverting amp
does this, but can't. Can you give me more of a hint?

George H.

A noninverting gain of N amplifier is also an inverting gain of N-1
amplifier, and the 1 is very accurate when the loop gain is high. Thus
if you have an offset of 2.50000V, connecting the input resistor of the
op amp (on the inverting side) to your offset generator and the
noninverting input to signal+offset, you get

Vout = (N+1)(Vos + Vsig) - N Vos = Vos + N Vsig.

This is just like the usual split-supply, single-ended noninverting amp,
except with the ground reference relabelled. Resistor inaccuracy causes
gain inaccuracy, but the offset remains correct.

This move is super common in single-supply data acq circuits, for instance.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

That's a nice concept: get some single-ended gain first, then take out
the common-mode.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8aw9g0sd5tcf3s1/Diffamp_2-stage.JPG?dl=0

Huh, OK. It's probably that I'm a circuit wusse, but inverting gain
w/o a ground reference bothers me. I can try it. One could HP
filter the output.

(In my case)
It looks like there is so much 1/f noise in the sensor that nothing
else maters too much. (Lasse's back to back seems to work fine,
'in theory' with equal noise 'densities' I should get a sqrt(2)
improvement in S/N. That has to apply to 1/f noise too? No?

When adding two noisy signals together. The worst I can do is
sqrt (2) improvement and the best is a factor of 2,
compared to the noisiest source.
(well with all sorts of other gain/ BW caveats.)

George H.

Quote:

One can even bootstrap the supplies of the first stage.

I've done this to pick off NMR gradient coil current shunts, where
CMRR has to be extreme.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com


Joseph Gwinn
Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:45 am   



On Jan 7, 2019, George Herold wrote
(in article<399b2a8f-deb2-4b0c-8b1f-da2d809663d0_at_googlegroups.com>):

Quote:
Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V background
from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp, or
instrument amp. But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)


Sounds like you could use a slide-back voltmeter circuit. Old school.

Joe Gwinn


Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:45 am   



On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Jan 2019 20:27:05 +0000) it happened piglet
<erichpwagner_at_hotmail.com> wrote in <q1312q$2a5$1_at_dont-email.me>:

Quote:
On 08/01/2019 17:28, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. januar 2019 kl. 11.09.34 UTC+1 skrev piglet:
On 08/01/2019 00:52, George Herold wrote:
Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.


An identical sensor outside the field and take the difference?


or different with two sensors in the field, one of them flipped


Yes, that is even better as the signal is doubled.

piglet


I remember a story in one university where I was where they have su[p]per conducting magnets
to test some materials.
Guy comes in a with a metal cart carrying some equipment,
it gets pulled towards the supper magnet, and BANG,
helium (IIRC) boiling disaster...

So that makes me wonder if you can just use a sensor _outside_ the cold magnet
and if that would work just as well.

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:45 pm   



On 1/8/19 7:56 PM, George Herold wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 5:10:44 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:03:59 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless_at_electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 1/8/19 8:51 AM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:44:16 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 1/7/19 8:27 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:01:28 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:52 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:37:48 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:23 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
George Herold wrote:


Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V
background from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp,
or instrument amp.
But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)



** Considered using a capacitor ??




.... Phil

Like a sample and hold? It needs to hold the offset
sorta forever, so a pot called for.

George H.


DC blocking capacitor. Y'know, like a high-pass on the input.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he7zy2rdhomfveh/IMG_20190107_193244554_HDR.jpg?dl=0

Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.


Got it, I figured you had not forgotten how to use a capacitor to block
DC but just so long as we cover all the bases here and the signal period
wasn't mentioned explicitly ;)

Oh dear no, big C, big R and fet opamp.. about 1 second is the longest
TC I can wait for. (10uF and 100k or 1uF and a meg.)
I was doing that today to look at power supply noise.
I think most of the circuits I build are 'scope preamps. :^)
I've never done the feedback cap thing, (you posted previoulsy),
looks like a Sallen-Key.

George H.


If you want to amplify the signal by N times and the offset by 1x (so
that you're still biased above ground), that's easy to do accurately
with a garden-variety noninverting amp.

I don't really care where the signal level is, I just want to look at
(small) changes. I'm trying to picture how a non-iverting amp
does this, but can't. Can you give me more of a hint?

George H.

A noninverting gain of N amplifier is also an inverting gain of N-1
amplifier, and the 1 is very accurate when the loop gain is high. Thus
if you have an offset of 2.50000V, connecting the input resistor of the
op amp (on the inverting side) to your offset generator and the
noninverting input to signal+offset, you get

Vout = (N+1)(Vos + Vsig) - N Vos = Vos + N Vsig.

This is just like the usual split-supply, single-ended noninverting amp,
except with the ground reference relabelled. Resistor inaccuracy causes
gain inaccuracy, but the offset remains correct.

This move is super common in single-supply data acq circuits, for instance.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

That's a nice concept: get some single-ended gain first, then take out
the common-mode.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8aw9g0sd5tcf3s1/Diffamp_2-stage.JPG?dl=0
Huh, OK. It's probably that I'm a circuit wusse, but inverting gain
w/o a ground reference bothers me. I can try it. One could HP
filter the output.


The gain is all noninverting. At the output, both signal and offset get
multiplied by positive numbers. The numbers are different, is all.

There's no difference whatsoever between this and a normal split supply
noninverting stage except that a different node is labelled 'ground'.

Quote:

(In my case)
It looks like there is so much 1/f noise in the sensor that nothing
else maters too much. (Lasse's back to back seems to work fine,
'in theory' with equal noise 'densities' I should get a sqrt(2)
improvement in S/N. That has to apply to 1/f noise too? No?


If the origins of the noise are independent, sure. Air currents or
power supply junk, no.

In one of my early consulting gigs, I was building stabilized lasers for
laser gravimeters down in Albuquerque. They had to be very stable over
periods of hours and days. I had a brass plaque made for my cube wall
that said:

DC
The Final Frontier

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

George Herold
Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:45 pm   



On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 3:47:34 AM UTC-5, 69883925...@nospam.org wrote:
Quote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Jan 2019 20:27:05 +0000) it happened piglet
erichpwagner_at_hotmail.com> wrote in <q1312q$2a5$1_at_dont-email.me>:

On 08/01/2019 17:28, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. januar 2019 kl. 11.09.34 UTC+1 skrev piglet:
On 08/01/2019 00:52, George Herold wrote:
Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.


An identical sensor outside the field and take the difference?


or different with two sensors in the field, one of them flipped


Yes, that is even better as the signal is doubled.

piglet

I remember a story in one university where I was where they have su[p]per conducting magnets
to test some materials.
Guy comes in a with a metal cart carrying some equipment,
it gets pulled towards the supper magnet, and BANG,
helium (IIRC) boiling disaster...

Right. that's a big low temperature super conductor magnet.
(I use the have new students grab onto a screw driver and
approach the dewar/ magnet slowly. The force goes as the sixth
power of the distance and so grows very rapidly.)

In this case it will be a small field ~ 1" diameter toroid.

George H.
Quote:

So that makes me wonder if you can just use a sensor _outside_ the cold magnet
and if that would work just as well.


George Herold
Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:45 pm   



On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:09:07 AM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Quote:
On 1/8/19 7:56 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 5:10:44 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:03:59 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless_at_electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 1/8/19 8:51 AM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:44:16 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 1/7/19 8:27 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 8:01:28 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:52 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 7:37:48 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 01/07/2019 07:23 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
George Herold wrote:


Perhaps a silly simple question. I need to subtract off a 2.5V
background from a few mV signal. I first think about a difference amp,
or instrument amp.
But I wondered if there is any advantage to a simple
opamp summing amp. (I'll add in -2.5 V)



** Considered using a capacitor ??




.... Phil

Like a sample and hold? It needs to hold the offset
sorta forever, so a pot called for.

George H.


DC blocking capacitor. Y'know, like a high-pass on the input.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he7zy2rdhomfveh/IMG_20190107_193244554_HDR.jpg?dl=0

Oh no we are talking slowly varying signals. Minutes to
an hour maybe..

So it's my bosses idea, you put a hall probe sensor inside
a High Tc super conductor toroid. Induce a super current.
(by cooling down with permanant magnet in the toroid.)
And then observe the field go away as you warm it up.

George H.


Got it, I figured you had not forgotten how to use a capacitor to block
DC but just so long as we cover all the bases here and the signal period
wasn't mentioned explicitly ;)

Oh dear no, big C, big R and fet opamp.. about 1 second is the longest
TC I can wait for. (10uF and 100k or 1uF and a meg.)
I was doing that today to look at power supply noise.
I think most of the circuits I build are 'scope preamps. :^)
I've never done the feedback cap thing, (you posted previoulsy),
looks like a Sallen-Key.

George H.


If you want to amplify the signal by N times and the offset by 1x (so
that you're still biased above ground), that's easy to do accurately
with a garden-variety noninverting amp.

I don't really care where the signal level is, I just want to look at
(small) changes. I'm trying to picture how a non-iverting amp
does this, but can't. Can you give me more of a hint?

George H.

A noninverting gain of N amplifier is also an inverting gain of N-1
amplifier, and the 1 is very accurate when the loop gain is high. Thus
if you have an offset of 2.50000V, connecting the input resistor of the
op amp (on the inverting side) to your offset generator and the
noninverting input to signal+offset, you get

Vout = (N+1)(Vos + Vsig) - N Vos = Vos + N Vsig.

This is just like the usual split-supply, single-ended noninverting amp,
except with the ground reference relabelled. Resistor inaccuracy causes
gain inaccuracy, but the offset remains correct.

This move is super common in single-supply data acq circuits, for instance.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

That's a nice concept: get some single-ended gain first, then take out
the common-mode.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8aw9g0sd5tcf3s1/Diffamp_2-stage.JPG?dl=0
Huh, OK. It's probably that I'm a circuit wusse, but inverting gain
w/o a ground reference bothers me. I can try it. One could HP
filter the output.

The gain is all noninverting. At the output, both signal and offset get
multiplied by positive numbers. The numbers are different, is all.

There's no difference whatsoever between this and a normal split supply
noninverting stage except that a different node is labelled 'ground'.


Right... my comment was a little tongue in cheek.. I should have added
the smiley face.
Quote:


(In my case)
It looks like there is so much 1/f noise in the sensor that nothing
else maters too much. (Lasse's back to back seems to work fine,
'in theory' with equal noise 'densities' I should get a sqrt(2)
improvement in S/N. That has to apply to 1/f noise too? No?

If the origins of the noise are independent, sure. Air currents or
power supply junk, no.

In one of my early consulting gigs, I was building stabilized lasers for
laser gravimeters down in Albuquerque. They had to be very stable over
periods of hours and days. I had a brass plaque made for my cube wall
that said:

DC
The Final Frontier

Yeah it's a little hard to measure the lower frequencies of 1/f noise,
things below 1 Hz.

George H.
Quote:

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com


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