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Guest

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:45 am   



>** All four diodes conduct - half of them during each half cycle.

You want to play words or electronics ?

>The claim about extending diode life was bullshit

I never claimed that. You probably quoted a quote.

Phil Allison
Guest

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:45 am   



Some Fucking Idiot calling itself jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:


** All four diodes conduct - half of them during each half cycle.

You want to play words or electronics ?


** There is no mutual exclusion - you fucking moron.


Quote:
The claim about extending diode life was bullshit

I never claimed that.


** That is why I posted: "The claim" not " Your claim".

I see you have a MASSIVE problem with following the context.


Quote:
You probably quoted a quote.


** You completely misread and misconstrued.

Simply because YOU are a congenital, mental retard.

FOAD anytime.



....... Phil

Look165
Guest

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:45 am   



Try to understand that I'm French, so English is not my mother language.

Phil Allison a écrit le 14/08/2019 à 02:26 :
Quote:
Some Fucking Idiot calling itself jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

** All four diodes conduct - half of them during each half cycle.
You want to play words or electronics ?

** There is no mutual exclusion - you fucking moron.


The claim about extending diode life was bullshit
I never claimed that.


** That is why I posted: "The claim" not " Your claim".

I see you have a MASSIVE problem with following the context.


You probably quoted a quote.

** You completely misread and misconstrued.

Simply because YOU are a congenital, mental retard.

FOAD anytime.



...... Phil



Guest

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:45 pm   



You should just killfile Phil. He is a truly sick individual. He
suffers from some sort of mental illness. It is best to just ignore
him.
Eric

On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:06:58 +0200, Look165 <look165_at_numericable.fr>
wrote:

Quote:
Try to understand that I'm French, so English is not my mother language.

Phil Allison a crit le 14/08/2019 02:26:
Some Fucking Idiot calling itself jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

** All four diodes conduct - half of them during each half cycle.
You want to play words or electronics ?

** There is no mutual exclusion - you fucking moron.


The claim about extending diode life was bullshit
I never claimed that.


** That is why I posted: "The claim" not " Your claim".

I see you have a MASSIVE problem with following the context.


You probably quoted a quote.

** You completely misread and misconstrued.

Simply because YOU are a congenital, mental retard.

FOAD anytime.



...... Phil


Phil Allison
Guest

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:45 pm   



et...@whidbey.com wrote:



Quote:
You should just killfile Phil. He is a truly sick individual.


** That is a very, very nasty thing to post - completely evil in fact.

A massive lie in every possible way.


Quote:
He suffers from some sort of mental illness.


** The truth is that "Eric" is massively autistic and hence incapable of recognising an intelligent thought - cos he has never had one in his whole pathetic life.

The retarded, lying POS top posts, ignores all context and makes an absurd "ad hominem" attack with no reason given.

I bet he never even read what I wrote, or ever has in the past.

Eric is a truly congenital fuckwit with no purpose being here or anywhere on the internet.

FYI He has jut made himself a prize target for ANYTHING I care to post about him.


..... Phil


Guest

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:45 am   



This is fucking hilarious...

default
Guest

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:45 am   



On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 21:33:16 -0700 (PDT), jurb6006_at_gmail.com wrote:

>This is fucking hilarious...

Yup.

Michael Terrell
Guest

Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:45 am   



On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:33:30 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 23:46:45 -0000, Jasen Betts <jasen_at_xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2020-02-19, Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey_at_military.org.jp> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 18:54:56 -0000, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless_at_electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-02-19 10:43, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do (cheap? expensive ones may be better) PC ATX power supplies need
current drawn from the 5V line to make the 12V line work correctly?

I have a PC with 3 graphics cards running scientific applications. I
acquired three old graphics cards that take about 300W each, and have
loads of cheap (CIT) PSUs that are rated at 650W on the 12V line, which
is what those cards use. So I run each card off its own supply. But
the 12V line at no load, or even at 300W, is only giving out 10 to
10.5V. If I attach a small dummy load of an amp or so to the 5V line,
the 12V line suddenly becomes 12V.

Why are the two lines related in any way?

Sorry for the crosspost, I'm not sure which of these groups are active.

A lot of cheap supplies regulate only one output, and rely on
cross-regulation via the transformer to control the others. If the
regulated output isn't loaded, it rises out of spec and so do the others.

Strangely, with no 5V load, I get 5.2V and 10.5V. A small rise and a large drop.

I can't understand why the following happens: No 5V load, 12V is out. Small (2A) 5V load, 12V is ok. Yet if I draw 30A from 5V, the 12V is still ok? How can zero load upset it, but 2A or 30A (big difference) both be ok?

The difference between nothing and 2A is a factor of infinity
The difference between 2A and 20A is only a factor of 10

Actually the fisrt is more like the difference betweem 2mA and 2A
because the internal feedback takes avout 2mA to run the LM431 and the
optocoupler. So going to 2A loads the 5V output by 1000 times more, better
than infinity. but not by much.

If it's going to be so shit, they could have added a dummy load inside the PSU to make it work properly. They could even have it shut off if there was enough external load.

Diode voltage drop is logarythmic vs current so the voltage on the transformer
needed to make 5V on the output is less with a 2mA load than it is with
a 2A load.


That is absolutely stupid. A dummy load wastes power, it generates extra heat and the heat shortens the equipment's life. Those are dedicated power supplies, not bench or lab supplies. They were designed to operate with a minimum load. If you don't like it, go to a four or five output supply with trimmers to calibrate each output. Be prepared to pay $250 to $400 for one.

You bitch about only getting 650 Watts output. Read the specifications. that 850W maximum is fully loading all outputs at the same time. Do yourself a favor and take some basic Electronics classes.

Michael Terrell
Guest

Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:45 am   



On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:44:04 PM UTC-5, default wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 00:32:05 -0000, "Commander Kinsey"
CFKinsey_at_military.org.jp> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 23:31:01 -0000, Jasen Betts <jasen_at_xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2020-02-19, Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey_at_military.org.jp> wrote:
Why do (cheap? expensive ones may be better) PC ATX power supplies need current drawn from the 5V line to make the 12V line work correctly?

I have a PC with 3 graphics cards running scientific applications. I acquired three old graphics cards that take about 300W each, and have loads of cheap (CIT) PSUs that are rated at 650W on the 12V line, which is what those cards use. So I run each card off its own supply. But the 12V line at no load, or even at 300W, is only giving out 10 to 10.5V. If I attach a small dummy load of an amp or so to the 5V line, the 12V line suddenly becomes 12V.

Why are the two lines related in any way?

because all the output voltages come from taps on the same transformer
and the voltage regulation is applied to the input to that transformer
and the voltage regulation only watches the 5V line.

Ok, but why does current need to be taken from 5V to make the voltage monitor work?

It is designed to be in a computer, and there's always some load on
the 5 V line. It probably didn't seem terribly important to worry
about a high voltage condition where none should ever exist.

Some power supplies sit and oscillate if they don't have a load on the
5 volt line...

I notice my desktop has 5v present on the USB connector even when it
is turned off, turned on, or just in standby. I suspect it may have a
small independent supply to run the USB connectors for power, and
perhaps that also supplies the CMOS memory so the clock and settings
don't drain the battery.


Look at the ATX Power Supply specifications. It should be on the Intel website for free.

There is a +5VSB output, (5 volt standby output) which is a low power switcher to provide power for the electronic power switch. Some computers power the USB port at all times, while others like this Dell Optiplex 780 shuts it down if the computer isn't active.

George Herold
Guest

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:45 pm   



On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 1:55:31 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 18:45:55 -0000, default <default_at_defaulter.net> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 15:43:37 -0000, "Commander Kinsey"
CFKinsey_at_military.org.jp> wrote:

Why do (cheap? expensive ones may be better) PC ATX power supplies need current drawn from the 5V line to make the 12V line work correctly?

I have a PC with 3 graphics cards running scientific applications. I acquired three old graphics cards that take about 300W each, and have loads of cheap (CIT) PSUs that are rated at 650W on the 12V line, which is what those cards use. So I run each card off its own supply. But the 12V line at no load, or even at 300W, is only giving out 10 to 10.5V. If I attach a small dummy load of an amp or so to the 5V line, the 12V line suddenly becomes 12V.

Why are the two lines related in any way?

Sorry for the crosspost, I'm not sure which of these groups are active..
\
There's often a good reason for it. The 5 volt supply is regulated
and the others are not (generally speaking). The feedback path is
from the 5VDC output back to the mains side of the controller.

The others get line (but not load) regulation via the 5V supply
because they share a common transformer. They are also switching
supplies that work at a high frequency so the transformers have fewer
turns of wire and more volts per turn which results in excellent
transformer "regulation."

So on a cheap shit supply, the 5V is guaranteed to be very close to 5V, but the 12V will drop under heavy load?
And on a decent supply like Corsair, they must regulate both seperately?
I still don't understand why the regulation goes to pot when under 1.5A is taken from 5V. It still regulates that 5V perfectly with no load, but the 12V goes wildly wrong. Why does the regulation need current to be flowing through 5V?


I didn't read all the answers, so maybe someone said this,
but some SMPS (switch mode PS) topologies have a minimum current.
(Mostly related to keeping current in the inductor.. you could
look up the difference between continuous and discontinuous
conduction modes.

George H.

Commander Kinsey
Guest

Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:45 am   



On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:56:55 -0000, Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:33:30 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 23:46:45 -0000, Jasen Betts <jasen_at_xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2020-02-19, Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey_at_military.org.jp> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 18:54:56 -0000, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless_at_electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-02-19 10:43, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do (cheap? expensive ones may be better) PC ATX power supplies need
current drawn from the 5V line to make the 12V line work correctly?

I have a PC with 3 graphics cards running scientific applications. I
acquired three old graphics cards that take about 300W each, and have
loads of cheap (CIT) PSUs that are rated at 650W on the 12V line, which
is what those cards use. So I run each card off its own supply. But
the 12V line at no load, or even at 300W, is only giving out 10 to
10.5V. If I attach a small dummy load of an amp or so to the 5V line,
the 12V line suddenly becomes 12V.

Why are the two lines related in any way?

Sorry for the crosspost, I'm not sure which of these groups are active.

A lot of cheap supplies regulate only one output, and rely on
cross-regulation via the transformer to control the others. If the
regulated output isn't loaded, it rises out of spec and so do the others.

Strangely, with no 5V load, I get 5.2V and 10.5V. A small rise and a large drop.

I can't understand why the following happens: No 5V load, 12V is out. Small (2A) 5V load, 12V is ok. Yet if I draw 30A from 5V, the 12V is still ok? How can zero load upset it, but 2A or 30A (big difference) both be ok?

The difference between nothing and 2A is a factor of infinity
The difference between 2A and 20A is only a factor of 10

Actually the fisrt is more like the difference betweem 2mA and 2A
because the internal feedback takes avout 2mA to run the LM431 and the
optocoupler. So going to 2A loads the 5V output by 1000 times more, better
than infinity. but not by much.

If it's going to be so shit, they could have added a dummy load inside the PSU to make it work properly. They could even have it shut off if there was enough external load.

Diode voltage drop is logarythmic vs current so the voltage on the transformer
needed to make 5V on the output is less with a 2mA load than it is with
a 2A load.

That is absolutely stupid. A dummy load wastes power, it generates extra heat and the heat shortens the equipment's life.


I said "They could even have it shut off if there was enough external load."

Quote:
Those are dedicated power supplies, not bench or lab supplies. They were designed to operate with a minimum load. If you don't like it, go to a four or five output supply with trimmers to calibrate each output. Be prepared to pay $250 to $400 for one.

You bitch about only getting 650 Watts output. Read the specifications. that 850W maximum is fully loading all outputs at the same time. Do yourself a favor and take some basic Electronics classes.


A decent supply made by Corsair lets you take the full 850W from the 12V line. The designers of this supply are morons.

Commander Kinsey
Guest

Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:45 am   



On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:26:54 -0000, George Herold <gherold_at_teachspin.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 1:55:31 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 18:45:55 -0000, default <default_at_defaulter.net> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 15:43:37 -0000, "Commander Kinsey"
CFKinsey_at_military.org.jp> wrote:

Why do (cheap? expensive ones may be better) PC ATX power supplies need current drawn from the 5V line to make the 12V line work correctly?

I have a PC with 3 graphics cards running scientific applications. I acquired three old graphics cards that take about 300W each, and have loads of cheap (CIT) PSUs that are rated at 650W on the 12V line, which is what those cards use. So I run each card off its own supply. But the 12V line at no load, or even at 300W, is only giving out 10 to 10.5V. If I attach a small dummy load of an amp or so to the 5V line, the 12V line suddenly becomes 12V.

Why are the two lines related in any way?

Sorry for the crosspost, I'm not sure which of these groups are active.
\
There's often a good reason for it. The 5 volt supply is regulated
and the others are not (generally speaking). The feedback path is
from the 5VDC output back to the mains side of the controller.

The others get line (but not load) regulation via the 5V supply
because they share a common transformer. They are also switching
supplies that work at a high frequency so the transformers have fewer
turns of wire and more volts per turn which results in excellent
transformer "regulation."

So on a cheap shit supply, the 5V is guaranteed to be very close to 5V, but the 12V will drop under heavy load?
And on a decent supply like Corsair, they must regulate both seperately?
I still don't understand why the regulation goes to pot when under 1.5A is taken from 5V. It still regulates that 5V perfectly with no load, but the 12V goes wildly wrong. Why does the regulation need current to be flowing through 5V?

I didn't read all the answers, so maybe someone said this,
but some SMPS (switch mode PS) topologies have a minimum current.
(Mostly related to keeping current in the inductor.. you could
look up the difference between continuous and discontinuous
conduction modes.


In a supply which powers a computer, where currents change all the time on different voltages, this is a very bad design. I guess I just buy the better ones in future.

whit3rd
Guest

Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:45 am   



On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 11:43:15 AM UTC-8, Commander Kinsey wrote:

> The supplies I'm having bother with are not that old, probably 5 years. But they were the second cheapest. They also lie on their specs. They're sold as 850W supplies, but you can only draw 650W of that on the 12V line, which is where 99% of the power goes in a modern PC.

Some modern PCs, sure. The 'specs' proably told you about that 650W limit, and
that means they were NOT lying.

> Nowadays, aren't all the chips running at about 1V and powered by their own VRMs, fed off the 12V line?

Only the CPUs, high-density LSI and some RAM use those low voltages; it's a scaling thing.
The mobile-PC crowd uses 12V raw power with DC/DC converters to provide ALL the ATX
power pins' outputs; you might consider a 12V-only source instead of an ATX supply

<https://www.amazon.com/MEAN-WELL-LRS-350-12-Computer-Project/dp/B07VTLJS18>

Commander Kinsey
Guest

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:45 am   



On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 03:39:41 -0000, whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 11:43:15 AM UTC-8, Commander Kinsey wrote:

The supplies I'm having bother with are not that old, probably 5 years. But they were the second cheapest. They also lie on their specs. They're sold as 850W supplies, but you can only draw 650W of that on the 12V line, which is where 99% of the power goes in a modern PC.

Some modern PCs, sure.


All.

Quote:
The 'specs' proably told you about that 650W limit, and
that means they were NOT lying.


It's on the label on the side, but it's sold as an 850W supply, which it isn't, so they're lying. It's like selling a car which can go 150mph, but only downhill. Technically yes, it can go 150, but not in a useful way.

Quote:
Nowadays, aren't all the chips running at about 1V and powered by their own VRMs, fed off the 12V line?

Only the CPUs, high-density LSI and some RAM use those low voltages; it's a scaling thing.


So pretty much everything in the computer.

> The mobile-PC crowd uses 12V raw power

No, 19V.

Quote:
with DC/DC converters to provide ALL the ATX
power pins' outputs; you might consider a 12V-only source instead of an ATX supply

https://www.amazon.com/MEAN-WELL-LRS-350-12-Computer-Project/dp/B07VTLJS18


Find me a 1kW version I can get in the UK, and not from Amazon. I wouldn't trust those Charletons with a bargepole.

In fact nevermind, I've already got one from China. Unfortunately there's nothing nearer me so I'll have to wait a month for postage.

whit3rd
Guest

Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:45 am   



On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 3:52:04 PM UTC-8, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Quote:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 03:39:41 -0000, whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com> wrote:

The mobile-PC crowd uses 12V raw power

No, 19V.

For automobile, boat, truck power, they use 12V, as I said. You're thinking about
laptop computer charge power supplies.

Quote:
with DC/DC converters to provide ALL the ATX
power pins' outputs; you might consider a 12V-only source instead of an ATX supply

Find me a 1kW version I can get in the UK, and not from Amazon. I wouldn't trust those Charletons with a bargepole.


MeanWell is a major manufacturer; your willingness to trust is... a problem only you can solve.

SLPower.com LU500S12T gives 500W, and you can bolt several together
(they current-share). They won't come with cables and connectors like a PC
uses, though.

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