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John Larkin
Guest

Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:45 am   



On Sun, 3 Jun 2018 16:55:23 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
<pallison49_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
John Larkin wrote:





I dont think i will buy an scope as I would not know how to use it. I
also think it falls outside my price range.
Are there any inexpensive ESR units?

Also why is it I see many electroic people on the net via utube for
example with all sorts of testing equipment Scopes etc. yet they also
seem to use Capacitor testers. When would they use them?

They're so much quicker and easier than rigging up a scope to do it.
Here's the one I use, i know others here prefer other ones, but IMO this
one's hard to beat:

http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html


It's a nuisance to desolder caps to test them, especially
surface-mount parts.



** There is NO need to do that for ESR testing of electros !!!.



Quote:

ESR meters use low currents and high frequencies ( 100kHz typ ) to asses the impedance near the component's series resonance.

Electro failure is indicted by an unusually high reading, compared to similar parts.


It's easier to scope the circuit and look for
symptoms of a bad part.


** Not for ESR it isn't.


For a power supply filter, just scope the ripple. If there's too much
ripple, the cap is bad; too little C or too much ESR, still bad.

You can learn a lot by probing and thinking. Provided you understand
the circuit.

I tell my kids: Measure and think; don't solder.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:45 pm   



On 06/03/2018 07:55 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Quote:
John Larkin wrote:





I dont think i will buy an scope as I would not know how to use it. I
also think it falls outside my price range.
Are there any inexpensive ESR units?

Also why is it I see many electroic people on the net via utube for
example with all sorts of testing equipment Scopes etc. yet they also
seem to use Capacitor testers. When would they use them?

They're so much quicker and easier than rigging up a scope to do it.
Here's the one I use, i know others here prefer other ones, but IMO this
one's hard to beat:

http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html


It's a nuisance to desolder caps to test them, especially
surface-mount parts.



** There is NO need to do that for ESR testing of electros !!!.

ESR meters use low currents and high frequencies ( 100kHz typ ) to asses the impedance near the component's series resonance.

Electro failure is indicted by an unusually high reading, compared to similar parts.


It's easier to scope the circuit and look for
symptoms of a bad part.


** Not for ESR it isn't.


.... Phil


Depends where in the circuit. In a power supply or audio output,
sure--there are probably PN junctions isolating the cap from the rest of
the circuit when it's powered off.

In a low-Z RC circuit, not so much.

I have a set of Smart Tweezers that I use for debugging and
troubleshooting. I like them pretty well.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Cursitor Doom
Guest

Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:45 pm   



On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 16:29:02 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

Quote:
It's a nuisance to desolder caps to test them, especially surface-mount
parts. It's easier to scope the circuit and look for symptoms of a bad
part.


For you perhaps, but not, I suspect, the OP. Anyway, that Peak meter I
linked to is able to carry out in-circuit measurements, so except in
certain circumstances, it's not necessary to lift a lead.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

Cursitor Doom
Guest

Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:45 pm   



On Mon, 04 Jun 2018 12:53:04 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Quote:
Depends where in the circuit. In a power supply or audio output,
sure--there are probably PN junctions isolating the cap from the rest of
the circuit when it's powered off.

In a low-Z RC circuit, not so much.

I have a set of Smart Tweezers that I use for debugging and
troubleshooting. I like them pretty well.


I've found some switchers with ripple on the output and it was due to
some obscure issue with the feedback path; fortunately it was easy to
establish that all the caps were fine and that saved a lot of time.





--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

Phil Allison
Guest

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:45 am   



Cursitor Doom wrote:

Quote:


For you perhaps, but not, I suspect, the OP. Anyway, that Peak meter I
linked to is able to carry out in-circuit measurements, so except in
certain circumstances, it's not necessary to lift a lead.



** The Peak meter is not generally able to measure capacitance while the part is still in circuit - the instructions leaflet says exactly that.

See final sentence under "Great Service Aid" .

However, it CAN test the ESR of electro caps while in-circuit with rare exceptions and that is the reading you need when hunting for bad or almost worn out ones.


..... Phil

Phil Allison
Guest

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:45 am   



Phil Hobbs wrote:

Quote:
John Larkin wrote:


It's a nuisance to desolder caps to test them, especially
surface-mount parts.



** There is NO need to do that for ESR testing of electros !!!.

ESR meters use low currents and high frequencies ( 100kHz typ ) to asses the impedance near the component's series resonance.

Electro failure is indicted by an unusually high reading, compared to similar parts.


It's easier to scope the circuit and look for
symptoms of a bad part.


** Not for ESR it isn't.


.... Phil


Depends where in the circuit. In a power supply or audio output,
sure--there are probably PN junctions isolating the cap from the rest of
the circuit when it's powered off.


** There is no need for any such isolation the test voltage appearing across the electro is lower than any junction threshold.



Quote:
In a low-Z RC circuit, not so much.


** Complete bullshit.

Obviously Hobbs has never used one.



...... Phil

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:45 pm   



On 06/04/2018 08:20 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Quote:
Phil Hobbs wrote:

John Larkin wrote:


It's a nuisance to desolder caps to test them, especially
surface-mount parts.



** There is NO need to do that for ESR testing of electros !!!.

ESR meters use low currents and high frequencies ( 100kHz typ ) to asses the impedance near the component's series resonance.

Electro failure is indicted by an unusually high reading, compared to similar parts.


It's easier to scope the circuit and look for
symptoms of a bad part.


** Not for ESR it isn't.


.... Phil


Depends where in the circuit. In a power supply or audio output,
sure--there are probably PN junctions isolating the cap from the rest of
the circuit when it's powered off.


** There is no need for any such isolation the test voltage appearing across the electro is lower than any junction threshold.


Which was my point. You can measure them essentially in isolation.

Quote:



In a low-Z RC circuit, not so much.


** Complete bullshit.

Obviously Hobbs has never used one.


Do tell, go on, don't hold back now. ;)

Cheers



--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Ralph Mowery
Guest

Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:45 pm   



In article <5dfdhdltqkvq4q8sbk2uldmuf03uaug766_at_4ax.com>,
me_at_somewhere.invalid says...
Quote:

http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html

Me too, great tool.

I dug out my ancient model today to check the caps in my burglar alarm,
as currently being discussed in "Suppress transients on old burglar
alarm". First use in years. But sadly it's broken. 'Error 5' on
everything. I phoned Peak and they say at some point I must have applied
an unacceptable voltage and zapped it. The 28 repair option did not
guarantee a fix so I've bought a new one for 88 (including express
delivery). Last one purchased about 20 years ago so reckon I've had good
value.



Peak is ripping people off bigtime.

The same thing from China can be bought for under $ 25 and just one of
those will test the passive components and many solid state devices.

With Peak you have to buy two of them to do it.

Terry Pinnell
Guest

Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:45 pm   



Cursitor Doom <curd_at_notformail.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 10:38:19 -0700, stevwolf58 wrote:

I dont think i will buy an scope as I would not know how to use it. I
also think it falls outside my price range.
Are there any inexpensive ESR units?

Also why is it I see many electroic people on the net via utube for
example with all sorts of testing equipment Scopes etc. yet they also
seem to use Capacitor testers. When would they use them?

They're so much quicker and easier than rigging up a scope to do it.
Here's the one I use, i know others here prefer other ones, but IMO this
one's hard to beat:

http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html


Me too, great tool.

I dug out my ancient model today to check the caps in my burglar alarm,
as currently being discussed in "Suppress transients on old burglar
alarm". First use in years. But sadly it's broken. 'Error 5' on
everything. I phoned Peak and they say at some point I must have applied
an unacceptable voltage and zapped it. The 28 repair option did not
guarantee a fix so I've bought a new one for 88 (including express
delivery). Last one purchased about 20 years ago so reckon I've had good
value.

BTW, I don't think the Atlas reports ESR does it?

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Cursitor Doom
Guest

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:45 pm   



On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 13:21:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Quote:
Peak is ripping people off bigtime.

The same thing from China can be bought for


Stop right there! That comment about price applies to everything, not
just ESR meters.
China sells stuff for a fraction of the price of UK or US or German
devices because their labour costs are a fraction of what they are in the
West. Peak isn't ripping customers off; they have to pay their workers
Western wages!
I've bought some great stuff from China; I've also bought a lot of junk,
too. It's a bit of a gamble. I'd sooner pay a bit extra and get something
well-produced in a proper case with decent technical support a local
phone call away than take a gamble on some unknown, uncased, undocumented
contraption that takes 3 months to turn up!



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.


Guest

Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:45 pm   



I would have to agree with you there. It is cheaper but at what cost?
Some People seem to want to die for the second amendment and gun rights but are allowing China to take the country over with out a fight at all. Today Guns are useless its economies that are the weapons.

I purchased an item that was from China unknowingly on Amazon. It was produced by the Original manufacturer but for the Chinese market. I thought well this should be good. However, it turns out when you want support for it you must contact china NOT USA/Canada. They call it gray market and will not touch it.
In fact if you try to install updates from N/A it will break it. And turn it into Chinese language. So you must contact China, with bad language and poor support.
I will never buy any anything but through N/A or perhaps Britain.
I'm confused why we keep buying things from China, a country that is deliberately try to over through our way of life like Russia and we keep shoveling money at them via companies like Walmart. They are basically an arm of the communists Chinese.

Any way just my stupid opinion.

Phil Allison
Guest

Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:45 am   



Phil Hobbs wrote:
Quote:

Phil Allison wrote:
Phil Hobbs wrote:

John Larkin wrote:


It's a nuisance to desolder caps to test them, especially
surface-mount parts.



** There is NO need to do that for ESR testing of electros !!!.

ESR meters use low currents and high frequencies ( 100kHz typ ) to asses the impedance near the component's series resonance.

Electro failure is indicted by an unusually high reading, compared to similar parts.


It's easier to scope the circuit and look for
symptoms of a bad part.


** Not for ESR it isn't.


.... Phil


Depends where in the circuit. In a power supply or audio output,
sure--there are probably PN junctions isolating the cap from the rest of
the circuit when it's powered off.



** There is no need for any such isolation the test voltage appearing across the electro is lower than any junction threshold.

Which was my point.


** But not mine. A junction can be in *parallel* with the electro with no effect on ESR measurements. That is not isolation.


Quote:
You can measure them essentially in isolation.


** Not only have you never used one, but you are stubbornly refusing to think the situation through.

What makes these meters SOOOO useful IS their ability to read ESR accurately while the cap IS left in circuit.


Quote:



In a low-Z RC circuit, not so much.


** Complete bullshit.

Obviously Hobbs has never used one.

Do tell, go on, don't hold back now. ;)



** Hunch confirmed.

Quote:
Cheers


** Piss off you pathetic troll.



...... Phil

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:45 am   



On 06/05/18 21:24, Phil Allison wrote:
Quote:
Phil Hobbs wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:
Phil Hobbs wrote:

John Larkin wrote:


It's a nuisance to desolder caps to test them, especially
surface-mount parts.



** There is NO need to do that for ESR testing of electros !!!.

ESR meters use low currents and high frequencies ( 100kHz typ ) to asses the impedance near the component's series resonance.

Electro failure is indicted by an unusually high reading, compared to similar parts.


It's easier to scope the circuit and look for
symptoms of a bad part.


** Not for ESR it isn't.


.... Phil


Depends where in the circuit. In a power supply or audio output,
sure--there are probably PN junctions isolating the cap from the rest of
the circuit when it's powered off.



** There is no need for any such isolation the test voltage appearing across the electro is lower than any junction threshold.

Which was my point.


** But not mine. A junction can be in *parallel* with the electro with no effect on ESR measurements. That is not isolation.


You can measure them essentially in isolation.


** Not only have you never used one, but you are stubbornly refusing to think the situation through.

What makes these meters SOOOO useful IS their ability to read ESR accurately while the cap IS left in circuit.





In a low-Z RC circuit, not so much.


** Complete bullshit.

Obviously Hobbs has never used one.

Do tell, go on, don't hold back now. ;)



** Hunch confirmed.

Cheers


** Piss off you pathetic troll.



...... Phil

Really, Phil, is that all you've got on tap?


You're slipping, mate.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Ralph Mowery
Guest

Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:45 am   



In article <pf6k34$2iv$1_at_dont-email.me>, curd_at_notformail.com says...
Quote:

Stop right there! That comment about price applies to everything, not
just ESR meters.
China sells stuff for a fraction of the price of UK or US or German
devices because their labour costs are a fraction of what they are in the
West. Peak isn't ripping customers off; they have to pay their workers
Western wages!
I've bought some great stuff from China; I've also bought a lot of junk,
too. It's a bit of a gamble. I'd sooner pay a bit extra and get something
well-produced in a proper case with decent technical support a local
phone call away than take a gamble on some unknown, uncased, undocumented
contraption that takes 3 months to turn up!




The rip off is that Peak sells 2 devices , one for active and one for
passive. They could just sell one device to do both.


Guest

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:45 am   



>" ** Not for ESR it isn't. "

True, but a circuit's tolerance for ESR varies widely. A 100 uF with 5 ohms ESR might totally upset one but work fine in another.

The absolute cheapest way is to just get a test cap that is a low rating, say 22 or 33 uF at like 350 volts and bridge it across existing caps at the bottom of the board. totally hillibilly and don't forget to discharge i t every time you use it in another place on the board. It also won't detect a short, but it did work for many years for me and many others.

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