Book on Analog Prototyping techniques

Isn't that what John was looking for? If you mount a Dremel holder, of
course, but that can't be rocket science.

Think about a small gadget that could clamp onto almost any size or
shape of PCB. It would have 3 or 4 or 5 degrees-of-motion actuators,
and a tiny illuminated camera. It could just peep around, or it could
carry a really tiny GHz fet probe, or a small cutter. You'd fly it
like a flight simulator.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:01:01 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid
wrote:

Winston wrote:
josephkk wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 16:51:10 -0800, Joerg<invalid_at_invalid.invalid
wrote:
(...)

Maybe if you marry a vertical Dremel holder with something like this?

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00925187000P?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00925187000

Verdamnt cookies required. Is it worth it?
I turn them on and off by hand. You can also set it so that the cookies
are nuked after some time. And watch them thar Adobe flash cookies. They
hide much deeper in your PC, most people do not know about those.


Nah. It's just the Milescraft pantograph router
adapter as rebadged by Sears.

Isn't that what John was looking for? If you mount a Dremel holder, of
course, but that can't be rocket science.

Think about a small gadget that could clamp onto almost any size or
shape of PCB. It would have 3 or 4 or 5 degrees-of-motion actuators,
and a tiny illuminated camera. It could just peep around, or it could
carry a really tiny GHz fet probe, or a small cutter. You'd fly it
like a flight simulator.

krw_at_att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:55:49 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote:

krw_at_att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:14:52 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Jan 16, 6:40 pm, George Herold <gher...@teachspin.com> wrote:
On Jan 16, 3:52 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:





Phil Hobbs wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Any suggestions for such a beast? In particular, methods that don't
necessarily involve a PCB or that use a PCB of less than ideal
characteristics (eg. a 2-layer for a 4-layer).
I think there is some info in the Jim Williams (rip) books.. are there
snippets in AOE? but I can't think of anything really comprehensive.
Surely someone has put this stuff down in a book? I'd hate for the
young 'uns to have learn the way many of us did.
Not really, I've never seen a good comprehensive book about it. Two that
come to mind:
a. ARRL Handbook. I have only old ones but that's what I learned my
stuff from when I was young. Plus from mentors. Ok, that book is mostly
about RF stuff but with modern analog parts just about anything is RF.
An oscillating amplifier won't care about the fact that it was just
meant to amplify a 30kHz signal
b. Howard W.Johnson "High-Speed Digital Design, A Handbook of Black
Magic". Not for prototypes and contains stuff I won't quite agree with
but it's a very good resource for rookies. That is the reason I have it,
to be able to point client engineer to chapter five point something. The
book shows where pitfalls are and what to do about them.
But most of all, line up one or more consulting mentors. People whom the
rookie engineer can send a schematic, sketch, photo, scope plot,
whatever, and ask them "Now why does this go berserk on me?". Yeah, it
may cost an hour or a few in fees but that's better than having a guy
agonize over a recalcitrant circuit for days while your schedule is
floating down the Klondike. Sometimes 15 or 30 mins of billed time are
enough to cause a reaction like "Oh dang, that was it!". But it must be
someone who is able to relay the "story behind the scenery" so it won't
happen again next time. Just like a good fiberoptics guy thinks that
everything in life is an etalon, an analog guy must learn that
everything in life is a loop and comes with undesirable inductance.
Get lots of copper clad and never, ever, let the guy build anything on a
proto-board that has no ground plane. Perf board without a plane has
been the source of many outbursts of anger and hissy fits for engineers.
If you must use it for a somewhat neat looking prototypes get the stuff
with at least one full plane. This can be helpful:
http://www.busboard.us/pdfs/BPS-MAR-SP3UT-001.pdf
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Nice. I use Vector 8007 for that sort of stuff, so I can use
through-hole parts when possible. It's all 0.1 inch pitch, which makes
small stuff harder. A bit of that busboard stuff might be just the
ticket.
Most of the time I use Wainwright Mini-Mount strips. You can snip them
to length, peel off the sticky tape and press them onto copperclad. Not
sure if the manufacturers still exists, at least I can't find them anymore.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Say, could you shear off strips of single sided copper clad? With a
bit of glue to hold 'em in place.

Shears are a bit brutal plus leave sharp copper edges which slice
through skin without you even feeling it. Suddenly there is blood all
over. I use a Ridgid scroll saw for that. With a sturdy blade in there
so I can cut with gusto. Wear eye protection when you do that.
If it does, a few passes with a file will take them right off and round the
edges. Sand paper works too.

Yeah, but you know how that is when you want really quick result.

It only takes two seconds per side.


Times four, times the number of copperclad snippets you need ...

Had that happen at a client. Suddenly there was blood in the area. Embarrassing.

In that case, I certainly wouldn't want you near my woodworking tools. ;-)


I wasn't the only one that happened to

It's one of the prices to pay when part of your job is fixing EMI
issues. Another one was a panel that didn't come off. Well, put foot
against system, gave it a good hard pull while letting off one of those
Japanese wrestler yells, panel let go ... *CRUNCH* ... went through
drywall with my shoulder. The guys didn't believe me but it didn't even
hurt.

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:09:40 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid
wrote:

krw_at_att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:55:49 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote:

krw_at_att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:14:52 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Jan 16, 6:40 pm, George Herold <gher...@teachspin.com> wrote:
On Jan 16, 3:52 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:





Phil Hobbs wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Any suggestions for such a beast? In particular, methods that don't
necessarily involve a PCB or that use a PCB of less than ideal
characteristics (eg. a 2-layer for a 4-layer).
I think there is some info in the Jim Williams (rip) books.. are there
snippets in AOE? but I can't think of anything really comprehensive.
Surely someone has put this stuff down in a book? I'd hate for the
young 'uns to have learn the way many of us did.
Not really, I've never seen a good comprehensive book about it. Two that
come to mind:
a. ARRL Handbook. I have only old ones but that's what I learned my
stuff from when I was young. Plus from mentors. Ok, that book is mostly
about RF stuff but with modern analog parts just about anything is RF.
An oscillating amplifier won't care about the fact that it was just
meant to amplify a 30kHz signal
b. Howard W.Johnson "High-Speed Digital Design, A Handbook of Black
Magic". Not for prototypes and contains stuff I won't quite agree with
but it's a very good resource for rookies. That is the reason I have it,
to be able to point client engineer to chapter five point something. The
book shows where pitfalls are and what to do about them.
But most of all, line up one or more consulting mentors. People whom the
rookie engineer can send a schematic, sketch, photo, scope plot,
whatever, and ask them "Now why does this go berserk on me?". Yeah, it
may cost an hour or a few in fees but that's better than having a guy
agonize over a recalcitrant circuit for days while your schedule is
floating down the Klondike. Sometimes 15 or 30 mins of billed time are
enough to cause a reaction like "Oh dang, that was it!". But it must be
someone who is able to relay the "story behind the scenery" so it won't
happen again next time. Just like a good fiberoptics guy thinks that
everything in life is an etalon, an analog guy must learn that
everything in life is a loop and comes with undesirable inductance.
Get lots of copper clad and never, ever, let the guy build anything on a
proto-board that has no ground plane. Perf board without a plane has
been the source of many outbursts of anger and hissy fits for engineers.
If you must use it for a somewhat neat looking prototypes get the stuff
with at least one full plane. This can be helpful:
http://www.busboard.us/pdfs/BPS-MAR-SP3UT-001.pdf
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Nice. I use Vector 8007 for that sort of stuff, so I can use
through-hole parts when possible. It's all 0.1 inch pitch, which makes
small stuff harder. A bit of that busboard stuff might be just the
ticket.
Most of the time I use Wainwright Mini-Mount strips. You can snip them
to length, peel off the sticky tape and press them onto copperclad. Not
sure if the manufacturers still exists, at least I can't find them anymore.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Say, could you shear off strips of single sided copper clad? With a
bit of glue to hold 'em in place.

Shears are a bit brutal plus leave sharp copper edges which slice
through skin without you even feeling it. Suddenly there is blood all
over. I use a Ridgid scroll saw for that. With a sturdy blade in there
so I can cut with gusto. Wear eye protection when you do that.
If it does, a few passes with a file will take them right off and round the
edges. Sand paper works too.

Yeah, but you know how that is when you want really quick result.
It only takes two seconds per side.

Times four, times the number of copperclad snippets you need ...

Be a little smarter when you cut the pieces.

Had that happen at a client. Suddenly there was blood in the area. Embarrassing.
In that case, I certainly wouldn't want you near my woodworking tools. ;-)

I wasn't the only one that happened to :-)

A whole company full of klutzes.

It's one of the prices to pay when part of your job is fixing EMI
issues. Another one was a panel that didn't come off. Well, put foot
against system, gave it a good hard pull while letting off one of those
Japanese wrestler yells, panel let go ... *CRUNCH* ... went through
drywall with my shoulder. The guys didn't believe me but it didn't even
hurt.

More than one person did that? After you got the panel off, did you
put it back on so someone else could have the pleasure too? ;-)

I thought we were talking about sharp FR4 edges.

You'll probably need something like an Isel gantry table. I remember
them from Germany but no idea where to buy them in the US. Then you'd
have a personal "drone in a tea cup", could fly dive-bombing attacks
against a rogue SOT23 target and stuff like that

Joerg wrote:

(...)

You'll probably need something like an Isel gantry table. I remember
them from Germany but no idea where to buy them in the US. Then you'd
have a personal "drone in a tea cup", could fly dive-bombing attacks
against a rogue SOT23 target and stuff like that :-)

No Drooling!

http://tiny.cc/ly99r
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHUvlFd11dU

--Winston

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:16:30 -0800, the renowned Winston
Winston_at_Bigbrother.net> wrote:

Yeah, CMM-gantry. As Mitutoyo, Starrett etc. have. Not very convenient
for a 3rd floor walk-up though- I think they typically weigh> 1000lb.

krw_at_att.bizzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:09:40 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid
wrote:

krw_at_att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:55:49 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote:

krw_at_att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:14:52 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Jan 16, 6:40 pm, George Herold <gher...@teachspin.com> wrote:
On Jan 16, 3:52 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:





Phil Hobbs wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Any suggestions for such a beast? In particular, methods that don't
necessarily involve a PCB or that use a PCB of less than ideal
characteristics (eg. a 2-layer for a 4-layer).
I think there is some info in the Jim Williams (rip) books.. are there
snippets in AOE? but I can't think of anything really comprehensive.
Surely someone has put this stuff down in a book? I'd hate for the
young 'uns to have learn the way many of us did.
Not really, I've never seen a good comprehensive book about it. Two that
come to mind:
a. ARRL Handbook. I have only old ones but that's what I learned my
stuff from when I was young. Plus from mentors. Ok, that book is mostly
about RF stuff but with modern analog parts just about anything is RF.
An oscillating amplifier won't care about the fact that it was just
meant to amplify a 30kHz signal
b. Howard W.Johnson "High-Speed Digital Design, A Handbook of Black
Magic". Not for prototypes and contains stuff I won't quite agree with
but it's a very good resource for rookies. That is the reason I have it,
to be able to point client engineer to chapter five point something. The
book shows where pitfalls are and what to do about them.
But most of all, line up one or more consulting mentors. People whom the
rookie engineer can send a schematic, sketch, photo, scope plot,
whatever, and ask them "Now why does this go berserk on me?". Yeah, it
may cost an hour or a few in fees but that's better than having a guy
agonize over a recalcitrant circuit for days while your schedule is
floating down the Klondike. Sometimes 15 or 30 mins of billed time are
enough to cause a reaction like "Oh dang, that was it!". But it must be
someone who is able to relay the "story behind the scenery" so it won't
happen again next time. Just like a good fiberoptics guy thinks that
everything in life is an etalon, an analog guy must learn that
everything in life is a loop and comes with undesirable inductance.
Get lots of copper clad and never, ever, let the guy build anything on a
proto-board that has no ground plane. Perf board without a plane has
been the source of many outbursts of anger and hissy fits for engineers.
If you must use it for a somewhat neat looking prototypes get the stuff
with at least one full plane. This can be helpful:
http://www.busboard.us/pdfs/BPS-MAR-SP3UT-001.pdf
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Nice. I use Vector 8007 for that sort of stuff, so I can use
through-hole parts when possible. It's all 0.1 inch pitch, which makes
small stuff harder. A bit of that busboard stuff might be just the
ticket.
Most of the time I use Wainwright Mini-Mount strips. You can snip them
to length, peel off the sticky tape and press them onto copperclad. Not
sure if the manufacturers still exists, at least I can't find them anymore.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Say, could you shear off strips of single sided copper clad? With a
bit of glue to hold 'em in place.

Shears are a bit brutal plus leave sharp copper edges which slice
through skin without you even feeling it. Suddenly there is blood all
over. I use a Ridgid scroll saw for that. With a sturdy blade in there
so I can cut with gusto. Wear eye protection when you do that.
If it does, a few passes with a file will take them right off and round the
edges. Sand paper works too.

Yeah, but you know how that is when you want really quick result.
It only takes two seconds per side.

Times four, times the number of copperclad snippets you need ...

Be a little smarter when you cut the pieces. ;-)


T'is why I prefer buying that stuff. Time is money, and sometimes there
ain't enough time.

Had that happen at a client. Suddenly there was blood in the area. Embarrassing.
In that case, I certainly wouldn't want you near my woodworking tools. ;-)

I wasn't the only one that happened to :-)

A whole company full of klutzes.


No, actually the leader of the pack in their market. Very smart folks.

It's one of the prices to pay when part of your job is fixing EMI
issues. Another one was a panel that didn't come off. Well, put foot
against system, gave it a good hard pull while letting off one of those
Japanese wrestler yells, panel let go ... *CRUNCH* ... went through
drywall with my shoulder. The guys didn't believe me but it didn't even
hurt.

More than one person did that? After you got the panel off, did you
put it back on so someone else could have the pleasure too? ;-)


I was tempted, but no :-)


I thought we were talking about sharp FR4 edges.


This was about potentially getting hurt.

: >Okkim Atnarivik <Okkim.Atnarivik_at_twentyfour.fi.invalid> writes:
: >> Maybe not as comprehensive as you'd like, but you may be thinking
: >> the Linear Technology AN47 .

Happened to come across an amplifier I've made maybe 15 years ago, using
AN47 techniques, www.iki.fi/msk/IMG_3303.jpg .

We acquired an LPKF milling machine shortly after that, which I have
used in prototyping ever since.

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:55:49 -0800, Joerg <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote:

Had that happen at a client. Suddenly there was blood in the area. Embarrassing.

In that case, I certainly wouldn't want you near my woodworking tools.