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Batteryless current clamps?

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Bill Sloman
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:35 am   



On Nov 17, 3:10 pm, Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
Quote:
Bill Slomanwrote:
[...]
Try to find out where the caps lock is, and unlock it. At the moment
you like more like Prostheticus.

For future reference, if you don't know the answer to a question, it
is not helpful to tell people that it is in some unspecified technical
book somewhere.
[...]

You could have added a line for the OP, saying that a passive
current clamp is a transformer, or some such.

Unfortunately, I don't know that. There are several ways in which a
current clamp can work, and not all of them depend on on the clamp
acting as a transformer.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Proteus IIV
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:19 am   



On Nov 17, 8:39 am, Bill Sloman <bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 17, 11:46 am, Proteus IIV <proteus...@gmail.com> wrote:





On Nov 17, 3:18 am, Fester Bestertester <f...@fbt.net> wrote:

I'm curious how the Fluke i200s current clamp probe can give mV output
without the use of batteries.

How is this done? If one is measuring 200A I can see how the magnetic field
could generate enough current in the probe to support some high-impedance,
low-draw circuitry.

But when measuring on the low scale, say, 2 or 3 amps, how could the probe
output a few hundred mV? (The clamp is spec'd to output 100mV / amp on the
20A low scale, 10mV on the 200A high scale.)

Can someone explain this to me? I'm fascinated to see it's possible & curious
to know how.

Thanks.

CURIOUSITY KILLED THE CAT
GO TO SCHOOL AND HEAR IT FROM  THE HORSES NOUTH

OR GO TO YOUR NEAREST TECHINAL BOOK STORE AND  PURCHASE TEST METERS
FOR DUMMIES

I AM PROTEUS

Try to find out where the caps lock is, and unlock it. At the moment
you like more like Prostheticus.

For future reference, if you don't know the answer to a question, it
is not helpful to tell people that it is in some unspecified technical
book somewhere.

If you can identify a specific book that has a specific reference to
the problem - with the ISBN for the book and the page or chapter
reference for the helpful bit - you can earn brownie points without
providing a direct answer.

Unhelpful abuse counts as a waste of bandwidth.

Raise you game or expect to be plonked. But don't worry if Jim
Thompson plonks you - he plonks everybody who disagrees with him,
which is probably one of the reasons he believes so many things that
don't happn to be true.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

THIS IS NO GAME
YOUR HEADS UP MAY HELP THE GROUP THOUGH


I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN MY INPUT TO THIS TOPIC

I AM PROTEUS

John Fields
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:46 pm   



On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:35:12 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman_at_ieee.org> wrote:

Quote:
On Nov 17, 3:10 pm, Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
Bill Slomanwrote:
[...]
Try to find out where the caps lock is, and unlock it. At the moment
you like more like Prostheticus.

For future reference, if you don't know the answer to a question, it
is not helpful to tell people that it is in some unspecified technical
book somewhere.
[...]

You could have added a line for the OP, saying that a passive
current clamp is a transformer, or some such.

Unfortunately, I don't know that.

---
Finally owning up to your ignorance, huh?
---

Quote:
There are several ways in which a
current clamp can work, and not all of them depend on on the clamp
acting as a transformer.

---
Really?

How about some examples, then, Mr. Bullshit Artist, and don't forget
that the keyword here is "passive".

JF

John Fields
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:13 pm   



On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:01:11 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman_at_ieee.org> wrote:

Quote:
On Nov 17, 4:29 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:39:40 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman

bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
Unhelpful abuse counts as a waste of bandwidth.

Raise you game or expect to be plonked. But don't worry if Jim
Thompson plonks you - he plonks everybody who disagrees with him,
which is probably one of the reasons he believes so many things that
don't happn to be true.

---
Typical Slomanesque two-faced rhetoric; you damn unhelpful abuse as a
waste of bandwidth and then, in the same breath, engage in it yourself.

Unhelpful abuse? I told him that if he wants to claim that the answer
to a question is availlable in a textbook, he's got to tell us which
text-book and whereabouts in that text-book.

---
As usual, more of your evasion since, clearly, the reference was to your
waste of bandwidth caused by the unhelpful abuse you heap on JT while
condemning PROTEUS for the waste of bandwidth caused by his unhelpful
abuse of Fester Bestertester.

True hypocrisy.
---

Quote:
People who use text-books know about this stuff. Try and remember back
to when you did.

---
An insult in an attempt to change the subject and put me on the
defensive, huh?

It won't work, you contemptible, fatuous ass.

JF

John Fields
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:51 pm   



On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:18:55 -0800, Fester Bestertester <fbt_at_fbt.net>
wrote:

Quote:
I'm curious how the Fluke i200s current clamp probe can give mV output
without the use of batteries.

How is this done? If one is measuring 200A I can see how the magnetic field
could generate enough current in the probe to support some high-impedance,
low-draw circuitry.

But when measuring on the low scale, say, 2 or 3 amps, how could the probe
output a few hundred mV? (The clamp is spec'd to output 100mV / amp on the
20A low scale, 10mV on the 200A high scale.)

Can someone explain this to me? I'm fascinated to see it's possible & curious
to know how.

---
OK.

A passive clamp-on ammeter is essentially the secondary of a transformer
wound on a core that can be opened or closed in order to get it around a
conductor so the current in that conductor can be measured without
cutting it and using a conventional ammeter.

A transformer is used to transfer _power_ from a source into a load,
thus the power, P2, required by the load, will be that power, P1,
supplied by the source.

In an ideal transformer there will be no losses, and then P1 and P2 will
be equal.

Next, the voltages on the primary and the secondary will be directly
proportional to the ratio of the number of turns on the primary to the
number of turns on the secondary, and the currents in them will
inversely proportional to the turns ratio.

With that in mind, let's say we have a transformer with a one turn
primary and a 1000 turn secondary, across which is connected a 1000 ohm
resistor which is dropping one volt.

The current in the load will then be:

E 1.0V
I = --- = ------ = 1e-3 ampere = 1 milliampere
R 1e3R

and the power dissipated by the load:


P = IE = 1e-3A * 1V = 1e-3 watt = 1 milliwatt


Now, since the turns ratio is 1000:1, the current in the primary is
inversely proportional to the current in the secondary, and since the
current in the secondary is 1 milliamp, the current in the primary must
be:


Is * nS 1e-3A * 1000t
IP = --------- = -------------- = 1 ampere
nP 1t

If we now double the current in the primary, the current in the
secondary will be doubled as well, causing the 1000 ohm resistor to drop
2 volts.

If we triple the primary current, the secondary current will be tripled
as well, the resistor will drop 3 volts, and so on...

So, what we have is a device which will have an output voltage which is
directly proportional to the input current and which we can use to
determine the input current by measuring the output voltage.

JF

Fester Bestertester
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:08 pm   



Quote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:18:55 -0800, Fester Bestertester <fbt_at_fbt.net
wrote:

I'm curious how the Fluke i200s current clamp probe can give mV output
without the use of batteries.

How is this done? If one is measuring 200A I can see how the magnetic field
could generate enough current in the probe to support some high-impedance,
low-draw circuitry.

But when measuring on the low scale, say, 2 or 3 amps, how could the probe
output a few hundred mV? (The clamp is spec'd to output 100mV / amp on the
20A low scale, 10mV on the 200A high scale.)

Can someone explain this to me? I'm fascinated to see it's possible &
curious
to know how.

---
OK.

A passive clamp-on ammeter is essentially the secondary of a transformer
wound on a core that can be opened or closed in order to get it around a
conductor so the current in that conductor can be measured without
cutting it and using a conventional ammeter.
[...]
JF

FINALLY an answer on-topic. Thank you.

After watching the 3 Stooges act that is aee / sed...

Sheesh!

I AM FBt

Bill Sloman
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:36 pm   



On Nov 18, 3:13 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:01:11 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman



bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
On Nov 17, 4:29 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:39:40 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman

bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
Unhelpful abuse counts as a waste of bandwidth.

Raise you game or expect to be plonked. But don't worry if Jim
Thompson plonks you - he plonks everybody who disagrees with him,
which is probably one of the reasons he believes so many things that
don't happn to be true.

---
Typical Slomanesque two-faced rhetoric; you damn unhelpful abuse as a
waste of bandwidth and then, in the same breath, engage in it yourself..

Unhelpful abuse? I told him that if he wants to claim that the answer
to a question is availlable in a textbook, he's got to tell us which
text-book and whereabouts in that text-book.

---
As usual, more of your evasion since, clearly, the reference was to your
waste of bandwidth caused by the unhelpful abuse you heap on JT while
condemning PROTEUS for the waste of bandwidth caused by his unhelpful
abuse of Fester Bestertester.

True hypocrisy.

Jim Thompson is notoriously enthusiastic about plonking people he
disagrees with. Someone who took him seriously might be upset by it.
This strikes me as information that Proteus IIV might find useful.

If I felt like heaping abuse on Jim Thompson I'd be more explicit
about it.

Quote:
People who use text-books know about this stuff. Try and remember back
to when you did.

---
An insult in an attempt to change the subject and put me on the
defensive, huh?

It won't work, you contemptible, fatuous ass.

The image of the incorrigibly offensive John Fields ever being put on
the defensive is amusing. Not as amusing as the idea that you might
ever have consulted a text-book, but distinctly comical all the same.

But we can rely on you for seriously side-splitting - if unintentional
- comedy. The clown who still thinks that the 555 is the answer to
every circuit problem imagines that he can call somebody else a
fatuous ass.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Bill Sloman
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:46 pm   



On Nov 17, 9:28 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:59:38 -0800, "Joel Koltner"

zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Fields" <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:sir5g5h9h69vfurapjd9e2kn8efeod8qat_at_4ax.com...
news:7ar5g59hdrcdpu3icb3rlmdn31iqiqfa67_at_4ax.com

5uA... nice!

Seems that someone on eBay is selling a +/-5uA movement:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Weston-Bakelite-Glass-5ua-microamp-Panel-Meter-Hi...

Nope, it'll get you nothing. Smile
Know why?

Because the federales will toss your rear in jail quite rapidly?

---
Nope, because the magnetic field generated by the power line will never
cut the conductor wrapped around it since the conductor will be
essentially perpendicular to the varying field. Smile

Since the original claim was

" >Wrapping some turns around the power company's lines will get you
many, many
Quote:
watts. Smile"

This isn't the reason - lines is plural and the nett current through
the lines as a bunch balances out to zero.

Wrapping a clamp-on meter around one line means that there is current
circulating around the clamp - the current that goes through the
selected line in one direction is matched by equal and opposite
current flowi g through the other lines in the other direction. The
coupling coefficient is unlikely to be good, but it is finite.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Bill Sloman
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:50 pm   



On Nov 18, 2:46 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:35:12 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman



bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
On Nov 17, 3:10 pm, Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
Bill Slomanwrote:
[...]
Try to find out where the caps lock is, and unlock it. At the moment
you like more like Prostheticus.

For future reference, if you don't know the answer to a question, it
is not helpful to tell people that it is in some unspecified technical
book somewhere.
[...]

You could have added a line for the OP, saying that a passive
current clamp is a transformer, or some such.

Unfortunately, I don't know that.

---
Finally owning up to your ignorance, huh?
---

There are several ways in which a
current clamp can work, and not all of them depend on on the clamp
acting as a transformer.

---
Really?

How about some examples, then, Mr. Bullshit Artist, and don't forget
that the keyword here is "passive".

If one can rely on that "passive". Someone who knew a little more than
you might extract some of the power circulating through the wire and
produce an active solution without an external power source.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Pointless Posts
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:09 pm   



Fester Bestertester wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:18:55 -0800, Fester Bestertester
fbt_at_fbt.net
wrote:

I'm curious how the Fluke i200s current clamp probe can give
mV
output without the use of batteries.

How is this done? If one is measuring 200A I can see how the
magnetic field could generate enough current in the probe to
support some high-impedance, low-draw circuitry.

But when measuring on the low scale, say, 2 or 3 amps, how
could
the probe output a few hundred mV? (The clamp is spec'd to
output
100mV / amp on the 20A low scale, 10mV on the 200A high
scale.)

Can someone explain this to me? I'm fascinated to see it's
possible
& curious
to know how.

---
OK.

A passive clamp-on ammeter is essentially the secondary of a
transformer wound on a core that can be opened or closed in
order to
get it around a conductor so the current in that conductor can
be
measured without cutting it and using a conventional ammeter.
[...]
JF

FINALLY an answer on-topic. Thank you.

After watching the 3 Stooges act that is aee / sed...

Sheesh!

I AM FBt

Admitted that the S/N ratio on Usenet can be frustrating. But did
you stop to consider the possibility that a) you failed to grasp
other attempts to explain it to you; b) your question was so
elementary for *this* group that few people bothered; c) your
last post might be taken as a slap in the face by those who tried
to help.

John Fields
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:45 pm   



On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:46:00 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman_at_ieee.org> wrote:

Quote:
On Nov 17, 9:28 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:59:38 -0800, "Joel Koltner"

zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Fields" <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:sir5g5h9h69vfurapjd9e2kn8efeod8qat_at_4ax.com...
news:7ar5g59hdrcdpu3icb3rlmdn31iqiqfa67_at_4ax.com

5uA... nice!

Seems that someone on eBay is selling a +/-5uA movement:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Weston-Bakelite-Glass-5ua-microamp-Panel-Meter-Hi...

Nope, it'll get you nothing. Smile
Know why?

Because the federales will toss your rear in jail quite rapidly?

---
Nope, because the magnetic field generated by the power line will never
cut the conductor wrapped around it since the conductor will be
essentially perpendicular to the varying field. :-)

Since the original claim was

" >Wrapping some turns around the power company's lines will get you
many, many
watts. Smile"

This isn't the reason - lines is plural and the nett current through
the lines as a bunch balances out to zero.

---
Since that's obvious to the most casual observer, the context of his
statement must have been about wrapping some turns around [one] of the
power company's lines, which I addressed by referring to it as "the
power line".
---

Quote:
Wrapping a clamp-on meter around one line means that there is current
circulating around the clamp - the current that goes through the
selected line in one direction is matched by equal and opposite
current flowi g through the other lines in the other direction. The
coupling coefficient is unlikely to be good, but it is finite.

---
Yeah, but so what???

What he was talking about was wrapping some turns around the conductor,
like this:

.. OOOOOOOOOOOOO
..----------------------
..
..----------------------
.. OOOOOOOOOOOOO

Where the dashed lines represent one of the power conductors and the
'O's represent the "some turns" wrapped around it.

Do you think current will be induced in the solenoid if it's wound that
way?

JF

John Fields
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:20 pm   



On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:36:17 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman_at_ieee.org> wrote:

Quote:
On Nov 18, 3:13 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:01:11 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman



bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
On Nov 17, 4:29 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:39:40 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman

bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
Unhelpful abuse counts as a waste of bandwidth.

Raise you game or expect to be plonked. But don't worry if Jim
Thompson plonks you - he plonks everybody who disagrees with him,
which is probably one of the reasons he believes so many things that
don't happn to be true.

---
Typical Slomanesque two-faced rhetoric; you damn unhelpful abuse as a
waste of bandwidth and then, in the same breath, engage in it yourself.

Unhelpful abuse? I told him that if he wants to claim that the answer
to a question is availlable in a textbook, he's got to tell us which
text-book and whereabouts in that text-book.

---
As usual, more of your evasion since, clearly, the reference was to your
waste of bandwidth caused by the unhelpful abuse you heap on JT while
condemning PROTEUS for the waste of bandwidth caused by his unhelpful
abuse of Fester Bestertester.

True hypocrisy.

Jim Thompson is notoriously enthusiastic about plonking people he
disagrees with. Someone who took him seriously might be upset by it.
This strikes me as information that Proteus IIV might find useful.

---
Bullshit, liar.

What you were doing was telling P3 to clean up his act or you'd plonk
him, and then, out of the blue, you just _had_ to take another little
snipe at Jim.

I guess you just can't get over his reporting you to the FBI, huh?
---

Quote:
If I felt like heaping abuse on Jim Thompson I'd be more explicit
about it.


Quote:

People who use text-books know about this stuff. Try and remember back
to when you did.

---
An insult in an attempt to change the subject and put me on the
defensive, huh?

It won't work, you contemptible, fatuous ass.

The image of the incorrigibly offensive John Fields ever being put on
the defensive is amusing. Not as amusing as the idea that you might
ever have consulted a text-book, but distinctly comical all the same.

---
Geez, Bill, I get along pretty well with most everyone here and post
mostly on topic, while you seem to be perpetually offensive to
_everyone_ and on topic about 1% of the time, so I think a _big_ PKB is
in order at this point.
---

Quote:
But we can rely on you for seriously side-splitting - if unintentional
- comedy. The clown who still thinks that the 555 is the answer to
every circuit problem imagines that he can call somebody else a
fatuous ass.

---
Geez, Bill, even if it were true that I thought the 555 was the be-all
end-all circuit design element you say I think it is, that doesn't make
you any less of a fatuous ass, does it?

JF

John Fields
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:36 pm   



On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:50:08 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman_at_ieee.org> wrote:

Quote:
On Nov 18, 2:46 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:35:12 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman
bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:

There are several ways in which a
current clamp can work, and not all of them depend on on the clamp
acting as a transformer.

---
Really?

How about some examples, then, Mr. Bullshit Artist, and don't forget
that the keyword here is "passive".

If one can rely on that "passive".

---
Can't come up with anything, huh? What a surprise!!!
---

Quote:
Someone who knew a little more than
you might extract some of the power circulating through the wire and
produce an active solution without an external power source.

---
I guess that'll keep you out of the running, n'est-ce pas?

JF

Fester Bestertester
Guest

Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:54 pm   



Quote:
Admitted that the S/N ratio on Usenet can be frustrating. But did
you stop to consider the possibility that a) you failed to grasp
other attempts to explain it to you; b) your question was so
elementary for *this* group that few people bothered; c) your
last post might be taken as a slap in the face by those who tried
to help.

Right you are.

A big thank you to those responders who gave answers to my question. Much
appreciated.

My comment was addressed to the "noise". Smile

FBt

Bill Sloman
Guest

Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:07 am   



On Nov 18, 9:20 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:36:17 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman





bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
On Nov 18, 3:13 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:01:11 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman

bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
On Nov 17, 4:29 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:39:40 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman

bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
Unhelpful abuse counts as a waste of bandwidth.

Raise you game or expect to be plonked. But don't worry if Jim
Thompson plonks you - he plonks everybody who disagrees with him,
which is probably one of the reasons he believes so many things that
don't happn to be true.

---
Typical Slomanesque two-faced rhetoric; you damn unhelpful abuse as a
waste of bandwidth and then, in the same breath, engage in it yourself.

Unhelpful abuse? I told him that if he wants to claim that the answer
to a question is availlable in a textbook, he's got to tell us which
text-book and whereabouts in that text-book.

---
As usual, more of your evasion since, clearly, the reference was to your
waste of bandwidth caused by the unhelpful abuse you heap on JT while
condemning PROTEUS for the waste of bandwidth caused by his unhelpful
abuse of Fester Bestertester.

True hypocrisy.

Jim Thompson is notoriously enthusiastic about plonking people he
disagrees with. Someone who took him seriously might be upset by it.
This strikes me as information that Proteus IIV might find useful.

---
Bullshit, liar.

What you were doing was telling P3 to clean up his act or you'd plonk
him, and then, out of the blue, you just _had_ to take another little
snipe at Jim.

I don't plonk anybody, and I certainly wasn't threatening that I'd
plonk him

Quote:
I guess you just can't get over his reporting you to the FBI, huh?

If he'd known how much pleasure I was going to get out of pointing how
how seriously far out of touch with reality that proved him to be, he
probably wouldn't have done it. I know he is conscious of his duty to
protect his country, but it isn't as if he is fanatical about it.

Even you will have to admit it has to be the funniest prat-fall we've
ever had around here.

Quote:
If I felt like heaping abuse on Jim Thompson I'd be more explicit
about it.

People who use text-books know about this stuff. Try and remember back
to when you did.

---
An insult in an attempt to change the subject and put me on the
defensive, huh?

It won't work, you contemptible, fatuous ass.

The image of the incorrigibly offensive John Fields ever being put on
the defensive is amusing. Not as amusing as the idea that you might
ever have consulted a text-book, but distinctly comical all the same.

---
Geez, Bill, I get along pretty well with most everyone here and post
mostly on topic, while you seem to be perpetually offensive to
_everyone_ and on topic about 1% of the time, so I think a _big_ PKB is
in order at this point.
---

Nice to see you sending yourself up from time to time. There have been
times when I've imagined that you lack a sense of humour, but that
really is funny. Nice one.

Quote:
But we can rely on you for seriously side-splitting - if unintentional
- comedy. The clown who still thinks that the 555 is the answer to
every circuit problem imagines that he can call somebody else a
fatuous ass.

---
Geez, Bill, even if it were true that I thought the 555 was the be-all
end-all circuit design element you say I think it is,  that doesn't make
you any less of a fatuous ass, does it?

Or any more. Your judgement isn't all that great outside of
electronics either.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

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