Basic Stamp

On Mar 6, 5:02 am, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...@yahoo.com> wrote:



On a sunny day (Fri, 5 Mar 2010 19:55:12 -0800 (PST)) it happened Chris
christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote in
33f8f59c-4242-428f-8226-d0c6866ce...@a10g2000pri.googlegroups.com>:

Something like this will be less then 300$:
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/24_to_60Hz_PLL_img_1847.jpg
the way this is supposed to work is:
the camera contact produces a short pulse that opens the 4015 6swicth.
That samples the 24 Hz and the system will stabilise so the camara pulse > > >is centered
around an edge of that 24 Hz waveform.
The 4046 runs at 120 Hz, set for exactly 120 Hz with no camera active.
The 7490 has a divide by 2 and a divide by 5, and makes 24 Hz and 60 Hz f> > >rom the 120 Hz.
Note the loop filter values.
This is not your normal PLL system, but my own invention.
Before you invest years in learning to program PICs,
maybe you could try this first:-)
I have not tried it for this, but at a slightly higher frequency with dif> > >ferent dividers
for in a data separator,
Extremely stable over a wide range.
Just a quick sketch too, not checked for errors.

I am interested since I already have the parts.  What do you think the
lock time would be?

Some remarks to that diagram, I forgot a resistor, and the loop filter values are for 500 kHz.

       \                          
------0 \------ R1 10k ----------------- pin9 4046
     4016                  |          |
                          === C1      |
                           |          |
                        ------        |                  +5V
                       |      |       R3 1M               |
                      ===C2   R2      |                   R4 100 Ohm
                       |      |       |                   |
                        ----------------------------------| +2.5V
                                                          |
                                                          R5 100 Ohm
                                                          |
                                                         ///
R1 is 10k
R2 is 2 k
So, looking at the loop filter, for 24 Hz (say 25) versus 500 kHz the values need to be 20000x bigger,
so that makes
C1 20000 x 10 nF = 200 uF
C2 20000 x 1nF   = 20 uF

When the circuit starts up, without the camera running, or connected, the voltage divider formed by R3 R4
will cause the VCO input of the 4046 to be at 2.5 V, and it should then run exactly at 120 Hz.

The circuit that you call 'debounce', is not that.

It is a one shot pulse generator, it generates a small positive pulse that opens the 4016 switch momentarily:
                             +5V
                              |                                         --  +4.3V
                              R6 1k                                    |  |
                              |          | |                           |  | pulse, length set by C3 R7
  ------------------0--------------------| |--------------------     --    --------------- -0.7V
 |                                       | |         |       |
 |                                           C3      |       |
 0                                                   |       |
\                                                   ---      R7 10k
 |camera switch                                     / \      |
 |                                                  ---      |
 |                                                   |       |
  ------------------0---------                      ///     ///
                              |
                             ///

This 4016 switch connects C1 to the 24 Hz square wave from the divide by 5 counter 7490.
If the oscillator is slow, it will connect mostly during the high part, +5V, and C1 will charge fast for a moment.
If the oscillator is too fast, it will connect mostly during the low part  (0V) and C1 will discharge fast.
This assures very fast lock time (10k in 200 uF).
This system *also* assures that when pulses are 'missing' the PLL does not veer of to all the way to a low frequency,
but stays at the last frequency, slowly moving to its free-running frequency because of R3.

One in lock the phase relationship is like this:

              -----
             |     |
             |     |
-------------       ------- sample pulse to 4016 switch

---------------                                                                           --------------
               |                                                                         |
               |                                                                         |
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24 Hz from divide by 5

             -
            |  |
............|  |   ........ 0     charge current in R1 to C1
               |  |
               |  |
                --
It is an exact phase lock.

My design is very similar but I need to re design
the loop filter.  I have a large C and small R, but I have seen
another design that has a a large R and small C.  The lock takes
several seconds tho with the large RC constant.  All the wile precious
film is burning through the camera.  If I use a smaller RC constant
then the jitter becomes unacceptable.

Another big problem is the loop is locking on the wrong frequency on
the camera.  It works fine when I simulate the camera with a
multivibe, but is locking strangely with the camera.  I tried a low
pass to filter bounces, it changed the lock frequency, but still not
correct.

The design requires a lock indication so that the operator will know
when the pilot tone is up to pitch so that the movie can be slated.
My fullcoat deck takes about 6 or 7 seconds for the fly wheel to get
up to speed.  The pitch is fine on this, but there is bad flutter
until the flywheel is at speed.

I dunno. maybe you can use that other phase comparator in the 4046 as lock indicator?

I see that your design incorporates a debounce.  I am interested, but
I am having a little tough time reading the schematic.

Hope the above helps.
In the diagram the C1 can become negative, maybe use 2 caps in opposite direction in series?
None of the components are critical, and I just calculated them using my neural net (brain).
It is a small market, I think, especially these days, with all digital cameras and post processing...
else I could make some for 300$ a piece:-)

Also, I might
suggest I higher frequency for the VCO, I found that it was more
stable at a higher frequency, and no big deal to divide down.  Divide
by 80 in the loop, and divide by 32 on the output.

You can try
The frequency cap is smaller, and probably has less tolerance, also versus temperature.
But my experienced with the original 4046 and the 74HC4046 are really good any ways,
I always keep some in stock for projects.
Although these day PICs make big inroads
But it is hard to beat an analog PLL in some applications.

I am friends with a guy that deals with a lot of pros that shoot small
gauge film, and I might be able to incorporate this with some software
and a PCM recorder.  Right now, I am just trying to get my camera to
play with my full coat deck.

Chris

@ Jan

I have the schematic taken from your drawing with the corrections that
you indicate.  I cannot read the ascii drawings my newsgroup reader
does not use a fixed width font, so they are mangled on this end.
Here is a link to my copy of your schematic.  I am missing a couple of
component values.

http://chrismaness.com/backend/spice_simulation/IMG_3009.jpg

Thanks,
Chris Maness

I have the schematic taken from your drawing with the corrections that
you indicate. I cannot read the ascii drawings my newsgroup reader

On Mar 9, 4:07 pm, Chris <christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mar 6, 5:02 am, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...@yahoo.com> wrote:



On a sunny day (Fri, 5 Mar 2010 19:55:12 -0800 (PST)) it happened Chris
christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote in
33f8f59c-4242-428f-8226-d0c6866ce...@a10g2000pri.googlegroups.com>:

Something like this will be less then 300$:
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/24_to_60Hz_PLL_img_1847.jpg
the way this is supposed to work is:
the camera contact produces a short pulse that opens the 4015 6swict=
h.
That samples the 24 Hz and the system will stabilise so the camara p=
ulse =
is centered
around an edge of that 24 Hz waveform.
The 4046 runs at 120 Hz, set for exactly 120 Hz with no camera activ=
e.
The 7490 has a divide by 2 and a divide by 5, and makes 24 Hz and 60=
Hz f=
rom the 120 Hz.
Note the loop filter values.
This is not your normal PLL system, but my own invention.
Before you invest years in learning to program PICs,
maybe you could try this first:-)
I have not tried it for this, but at a slightly higher frequency wit=
h dif=
ferent dividers
for in a data separator,
Extremely stable over a wide range.
Just a quick sketch too, not checked for errors.

I am interested since I already have the parts.  What do you think t=
he
lock time would be?

Some remarks to that diagram, I forgot a resistor, and the loop filter =
values are for 500 kHz.

       \                          
------0 \------ R1 10k ----------------- pin9 4046
     4016                  |         =
 |
                          === C1   =
   |
                           |       =
   |
                        ------        |=
                 +5V
                       |      |     =
  R3 1M               |
                      ===C2   R2     =
 |                   R4 100 Ohm
                       |      |     =
  |                   |
                        -----------------------=
-----------| +2.5V
                                   =
                      |
                                   =
                      R5 100 Ohm
                                   =
                      |
                                   =
                     ///
R1 is 10k
R2 is 2 k
So, looking at the loop filter, for 24 Hz (say 25) versus 500 kHz the v=
alues need to be 20000x bigger,
so that makes
C1 20000 x 10 nF = 200 uF
C2 20000 x 1nF   = 20 uF

When the circuit starts up, without the camera running, or connected, t=
he voltage divider formed by R3 R4
will cause the VCO input of the 4046 to be at 2.5 V, and it should then=
run exactly at 120 Hz.

The circuit that you call 'debounce', is not that.

It is a one shot pulse generator, it generates a small positive pulse t=
hat opens the 4016 switch momentarily:
                             +5V
                              |     =
                                    -- =
 +4.3V
                              R6 1k   =
                                 |  |
                              |     =
     | |                           |  | p=
ulse, length set by C3 R7
  ------------------0--------------------| |--------------------   =
  --    --------------- -0.7V
 |                                 =
      | |         |       |
 |                                 =
          C3      |       |
 0                                 =
                  |       |
\                                   =
                ---      R7 10k
 |camera switch                           =
          / \      |
 |                                 =
                 ---      |
 |                                 =
                  |       |
  ------------------0---------                   =
   ///     ///
                              |
                             ///

This 4016 switch connects C1 to the 24 Hz square wave from the divide b=
y 5 counter 7490.
If the oscillator is slow, it will connect mostly during the high part,=
+5V, and C1 will charge fast for a moment.
If the oscillator is too fast, it will connect mostly during the low pa=
rt  (0V) and C1 will discharge fast.
This assures very fast lock time (10k in 200 uF).
This system *also* assures that when pulses are 'missing' the PLL does =
not veer of to all the way to a low frequency,
but stays at the last frequency, slowly moving to its free-running freq=
uency because of R3.

One in lock the phase relationship is like this:

              -----
             |     |
             |     |
-------------       ------- sample pulse to 4016 switch

---------------                            =
                                    =
          --------------
               |                   =
                                     =
                |
               |                   =
                                     =
                |
                ---------------------------------------=
---------------------------------- 24 Hz from divide by 5

             -
            |  |
............|  |   ........ 0     charge current in R1 to C1
               |  |
               |  |
                --
It is an exact phase lock.

My design is very similar but I need to re design
the loop filter.  I have a large C and small R, but I have seen
another design that has a a large R and small C.  The lock takes
several seconds tho with the large RC constant.  All the wile precio=
us
film is burning through the camera.  If I use a smaller RC constant
then the jitter becomes unacceptable.

Another big problem is the loop is locking on the wrong frequency on
the camera.  It works fine when I simulate the camera with a
multivibe, but is locking strangely with the camera.  I tried a low
pass to filter bounces, it changed the lock frequency, but still not
correct.

The design requires a lock indication so that the operator will know
when the pilot tone is up to pitch so that the movie can be slated.
My fullcoat deck takes about 6 or 7 seconds for the fly wheel to get
up to speed.  The pitch is fine on this, but there is bad flutter
until the flywheel is at speed.

I dunno. maybe you can use that other phase comparator in the 4046 as l=
ock indicator?

I see that your design incorporates a debounce.  I am interested, bu=
t
I am having a little tough time reading the schematic.

Hope the above helps.
In the diagram the C1 can become negative, maybe use 2 caps in opposite=
direction in series?
None of the components are critical, and I just calculated them using m=
y neural net (brain).
It is a small market, I think, especially these days, with all digital =
cameras and post processing...
else I could make some for 300$ a piece:-)

Also, I might
suggest I higher frequency for the VCO, I found that it was more
stable at a higher frequency, and no big deal to divide down.  Divid=
e
by 80 in the loop, and divide by 32 on the output.

You can try
The frequency cap is smaller, and probably has less tolerance, also ver=
sus temperature.
But my experienced with the original 4046 and the 74HC4046 are really g=
ood any ways,
I always keep some in stock for projects.
Although these day PICs make big inroads
But it is hard to beat an analog PLL in some applications.

I am friends with a guy that deals with a lot of pros that shoot small
gauge film, and I might be able to incorporate this with some software
and a PCM recorder.  Right now, I am just trying to get my camera to
play with my full coat deck.

Chris

@ Jan

I have the schematic taken from your drawing with the corrections that
you indicate.  I cannot read the ascii drawings my newsgroup reader
does not use a fixed width font, so they are mangled on this end.
Here is a link to my copy of your schematic.  I am missing a couple of
component values.

http://chrismaness.com/backend/spice_simulation/IMG_3009.jpg

Thanks,
Chris Maness

I am not sure how exactly that would work, but just some common
senses. Take for example, your 2M resistor and 200uF capacitor will
have a time constant of the order 400 seconds. How would that affect
your 24Hz PLL?

On a sunny day (Tue, 9 Mar 2010 23:19:07 -0800 (PST)) it happened linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in
6674bcf3-ab2d-41ad-af42-fe7bdbaff...@g8g2000pri.googlegroups.com>:



On Mar 9, 4:07 pm, Chris <christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mar 6, 5:02 am, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 5 Mar 2010 19:55:12 -0800 (PST)) it happened Chris
christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote in
33f8f59c-4242-428f-8226-d0c6866ce...@a10g2000pri.googlegroups.com>:

Something like this will be less then 300$:
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/24_to_60Hz_PLL_img_1847.jpg
the way this is supposed to work is:
the camera contact produces a short pulse that opens the 4015 6swict> >h.
That samples the 24 Hz and the system will stabilise so the camara p> >ulse > >> > >is centered
around an edge of that 24 Hz waveform.
The 4046 runs at 120 Hz, set for exactly 120 Hz with no camera activ> >e.
The 7490 has a divide by 2 and a divide by 5, and makes 24 Hz and 60> > Hz f> >> > >rom the 120 Hz.
Note the loop filter values.
This is not your normal PLL system, but my own invention.
Before you invest years in learning to program PICs,
maybe you could try this first:-)
I have not tried it for this, but at a slightly higher frequency wit> >h dif> >> > >ferent dividers
for in a data separator,
Extremely stable over a wide range.
Just a quick sketch too, not checked for errors.

I am interested since I already have the parts.  What do you think t> >he
lock time would be?

Some remarks to that diagram, I forgot a resistor, and the loop filter > >values are for 500 kHz.

       \                          
------0 \------ R1 10k ----------------- pin9 4046
     4016                  |         > > |
                          === C1   > >   |
                           |       > >   |
                        ------        |> >                  +5V
                       |      |     > >  R3 1M               |
                      ===C2   R2     > > |                   R4 100 Ohm
                       |      |     > >  |                   |
                        -----------------------> >-----------| +2.5V
                                   > >                       |
                                   > >                       R5 100 Ohm
                                   > >                       |
                                   > >                      ///
R1 is 10k
R2 is 2 k
So, looking at the loop filter, for 24 Hz (say 25) versus 500 kHz the v> >alues need to be 20000x bigger,
so that makes
C1 20000 x 10 nF = 200 uF
C2 20000 x 1nF   = 20 uF

When the circuit starts up, without the camera running, or connected, t> >he voltage divider formed by R3 R4
will cause the VCO input of the 4046 to be at 2.5 V, and it should then> > run exactly at 120 Hz.

The circuit that you call 'debounce', is not that.

It is a one shot pulse generator, it generates a small positive pulse t> >hat opens the 4016 switch momentarily:
                             +5V
                              |     > >                                    -- > > +4.3V
                              R6 1k   > >                                 |  |
                              |     > >     | |                           |  | p> >ulse, length set by C3 R7
  ------------------0--------------------| |--------------------   > >  --    --------------- -0.7V
 |                                 > >      | |         |       |
 |                                 > >          C3      |       |
 0                                 > >                  |       |
\                                   > >                ---      R7 10k
 |camera switch                           > >          / \      |
 |                                 > >                 ---      |
 |                                 > >                  |       |
  ------------------0---------                   > >   ///     ///
                              |
                             ///

This 4016 switch connects C1 to the 24 Hz square wave from the divide b> >y 5 counter 7490.
If the oscillator is slow, it will connect mostly during the high part,> > +5V, and C1 will charge fast for a moment.
If the oscillator is too fast, it will connect mostly during the low pa> >rt  (0V) and C1 will discharge fast.
This assures very fast lock time (10k in 200 uF).
This system *also* assures that when pulses are 'missing' the PLL does > >not veer of to all the way to a low frequency,
but stays at the last frequency, slowly moving to its free-running freq> >uency because of R3.

One in lock the phase relationship is like this:

              -----
             |     |
             |     |
-------------       ------- sample pulse to 4016 switch

---------------                            > >                                     > >          --------------
               |                   > >                                     > >                 |
               |                   > >                                     > >                 |
                ---------------------------------------> >---------------------------------- 24 Hz from divide by 5

             -
            |  |
............|  |   ........ 0     charge current in R1 to C1
               |  |
               |  |
                --
It is an exact phase lock.

My design is very similar but I need to re design
the loop filter.  I have a large C and small R, but I have seen
another design that has a a large R and small C.  The lock takes
several seconds tho with the large RC constant.  All the wile precio> >us
film is burning through the camera.  If I use a smaller RC constant
then the jitter becomes unacceptable.

Another big problem is the loop is locking on the wrong frequency on
the camera.  It works fine when I simulate the camera with a
multivibe, but is locking strangely with the camera.  I tried a low
pass to filter bounces, it changed the lock frequency, but still not
correct.

The design requires a lock indication so that the operator will know
when the pilot tone is up to pitch so that the movie can be slated.
My fullcoat deck takes about 6 or 7 seconds for the fly wheel to get
up to speed.  The pitch is fine on this, but there is bad flutter
until the flywheel is at speed.

I dunno. maybe you can use that other phase comparator in the 4046 as l> >ock indicator?

I see that your design incorporates a debounce.  I am interested, bu> >t
I am having a little tough time reading the schematic.

Hope the above helps.
In the diagram the C1 can become negative, maybe use 2 caps in opposite> > direction in series?
None of the components are critical, and I just calculated them using m> >y neural net (brain).
It is a small market, I think, especially these days, with all digital > >cameras and post processing...
else I could make some for 300$ a piece:-)

Also, I might
suggest I higher frequency for the VCO, I found that it was more
stable at a higher frequency, and no big deal to divide down.  Divid> >e
by 80 in the loop, and divide by 32 on the output.

You can try
The frequency cap is smaller, and probably has less tolerance, also ver> >sus temperature.
But my experienced with the original 4046 and the 74HC4046 are really g> >ood any ways,
I always keep some in stock for projects.
Although these day PICs make big inroads
But it is hard to beat an analog PLL in some applications.

I am friends with a guy that deals with a lot of pros that shoot small
gauge film, and I might be able to incorporate this with some software
and a PCM recorder.  Right now, I am just trying to get my camera to
play with my full coat deck.

Chris

@ Jan

I have the schematic taken from your drawing with the corrections that
you indicate.  I cannot read the ascii drawings my newsgroup reader
does not use a fixed width font, so they are mangled on this end.
Here is a link to my copy of your schematic.  I am missing a couple of
component values.

http://chrismaness.com/backend/spice_simulation/IMG_3009.jpg

Thanks,
Chris Maness

I am not sure how exactly that would work, but just some common
senses.  Take for example, your 2M resistor and 200uF capacitor will
have a time constant of the order 400 seconds.  How would that affect
your 24Hz PLL?

FYI the 200 uF is charged discharged via 10k and the 4016
In my final diagram the bottom ...

read more »

So, time constant of 2 seconds or 4% changes in 24Hz. 200uF is big
physically and electrically. They usually comes in 10% values, not
sure how stable they are.

On a sunny day (Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:03:25 -0800 (PST)) it happened linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in
0c511c40-48e0-4888-83ee-65ccb9941...@u5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>:

So, time constant of 2 seconds or 4% changes in 24Hz.  200uF is big
physically and electrically.  They usually comes in 10% values, not
sure how stable they are.

Will only get faster then

On Mar 10, 12:44 pm, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:03:25 -0800 (PST)) it happened linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in
0c511c40-48e0-4888-83ee-65ccb9941...@u5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>:

So, time constant of 2 seconds or 4% changes in 24Hz.  200uF is big
physically and electrically.  They usually comes in 10% values, not
sure how stable they are.

Will only get faster then :-)

These are small:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=718-1691-ND

But Holy crap $150

Chris

On a sunny day (Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:17:47 -0800 (PST)) it happened Chris
christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote in
35895058-5743-477b-baa1-3f08ec4fe...@f17g2000prh.googlegroups.com>:



On Mar 10, 12:44 pm, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:03:25 -0800 (PST)) it happened linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in
0c511c40-48e0-4888-83ee-65ccb9941...@u5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>:

So, time constant of 2 seconds or 4% changes in 24Hz.  200uF is big
physically and electrically.  They usually comes in 10% values, not
sure how stable they are.

Will only get faster then :-)

These are small:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=718-....

But Holy crap $150

Chris

I do not think they are small, they are 100V, what gave you that idea?

BTW, you were talking about 50 mS one shot?
The pulse must be *much* shorter then a 24 Hz period, I think max 10 mS here.
And it must only happen on the falling or rising egde of the switch
(open or close or whatever), and not on both.
See the wave forms and diagram I posted earlier.

In my view my circuit is not very sensitive to bounce as far as frequency
is concerned, the original circuit without 555 timer would do.
Perhaps add a small 10 Ohm resistor in series with the camera switch,
to limit contact burn in.

On Mar 11, 12:34 pm, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...@yahoo.com> wrote:



On a sunny day (Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:17:47 -0800 (PST)) it happened Chris
christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote in
35895058-5743-477b-baa1-3f08ec4fe...@f17g2000prh.googlegroups.com>:

On Mar 10, 12:44 pm, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:03:25 -0800 (PST)) it happened linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in
0c511c40-48e0-4888-83ee-65ccb9941...@u5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>:

So, time constant of 2 seconds or 4% changes in 24Hz.  200uF is big
physically and electrically.  They usually comes in 10% values, not
sure how stable they are.

Will only get faster then :-)

These are small:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=718-...

But Holy crap $150

Chris

I do not think they are small, they are 100V, what gave you that idea?

BTW, you were talking about 50 mS one shot?
The pulse must be *much* shorter then a 24 Hz period, I think max 10 mS here.
And it must only happen on the falling or rising egde of the switch
(open or close or whatever), and not on both.
See the wave forms and diagram I posted earlier.

In my view my circuit is not very sensitive to bounce as far as frequency
is concerned, the original circuit without 555 timer would do.
Perhaps add a small 10 Ohm resistor in series with the camera switch,
to limit contact burn in.

My debounce design gives a 50% duty cycle.  That would be 20ms long
pulse.  So your design requires a short pulse over the period?  It
comes out of the camera as a 5ms pulse.  Again, I am not sure if there
is bounce present.  All I know is that the multivibrator worked, but
the camera switch did not lock on the right frequency.  The loop was
locking too high.  I was using comparitor II.

Regards,
ChrisManess