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Apple have stolen my ipad. Yes, this story now has an ending

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Rod Speed
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 2:15 am   



nospam <nospam_at_nospam.invalid> wrote
Quote:
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa_at_gmail.com> wrote

Red herring, The case in question, there's no 'rando' calling.

apple doesn't know that until they can verify proper ownership.

Wrong in Don's case, the Apple ID had his company name in it.

completely meaningless and easily faked. anyone can create
any apple id they want or claim they own any existing apple id.

Yes, but no thief can know that that was done when the device
was setup initially, when the thief steals the ipad years later, so
it is evidence that it can't have been done by a thief of the ipad.

thieves can find out all sorts of stuff about the original owner.

But finding out Don's company name YEARS after he has used it
in the Apple ID to setup an ipad he bought YEARS ago is completely
useless for a thief who wants to steal Don's ipad and then ring
Apple claiming to be Don and get Apple to reset that ipad so
the thief can use it.

And it is completely trivial for Apple to call Don on one
of his company contact numbers and check if it really is
Don that is calling them now to get the ipad reset.

all he needs to do is reply to the verification email.


All Apple needs to do is to send that to one of the other
Apple IDs that Apple can see Don has used recently, not
to one that was only ever used to setup that particular
ipad all those years ago and was never used again.

> he couldn't, so the next step is an invoice.

He always had that invoice. And an invoice is even easier to
fake than anything else, so proves nothing about ownership.

Unlike sending the verification email to an Apple ID that
Apple can see has been used much more recently on that
ipad than the one that was used to set it up all those year
ago and has never been used since that time.

Quote:
apple is not going to release a device that's activation
locked with just a phone call. that's *way* too easy to fake.


Yes, but an invoice with the serial number on it is even easier
to fake. A response to a verification email sent to one of the
Apple IDs that Apple can see has been used on that ipad
recently isnt.

Keep furiously digging, you'll be out in China any day now.

Say hello to Xi Jinping from us, or Kim Jung Un if you fuck
up your hole digging as spectacularly as you have fucked
up your desperate attempt to bullshit and lie your way out
of your predicament, as always,

David Empson
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 3:42 am   



Don McKenzie <5V_at_2.5A> wrote:

Quote:
At this point, can I ask a serious question, and get a sensible answer?

Is there anyone that has an iPad serial on a receipt, and can prove it by
posting a masked version (for your own security), similar to what I have
done? See: http://www.dontronics.com/apple.htm


My Apple products bought from Apple's online store do NOT have serial
numbers on the invoice/receipt.

Digging through my archives, I found the receipts for two Apple products
bought from authorised resellers. The iPad 2 I bought in March 2011 has
a serial number printed on its receipt (thermal printed, now almost
illegible, but the digits I can read match the record I kept in my
database of serial numbers). The MacBook Pro I bought in April 2010
(from a different reseller) does NOT have a serial number on the
receipt.

Other identifying information such as the invoice number allows tracking
the order in the records of Apple or the reseller. I expect there are
internal records of the serial number of the device which was sold.

For a sale through an authorised Apple reseller, there will be
sufficient documentation that Apple supplied that deice to the reseller,
and the reseller's invoice identifies the purchaser, so a matching
invoice/receipt from the purchaser (with the invoice number) proves the
device hasn't been stolen.

In your case, the purchase was NOT from an authorised Apple reseller, so
Apple has no way to track the sale of that iPad: they would have a
record of where it was originally sold, and possibly who it was sold to,
but that doesn't match up with your purchase from Becextech, because
Apple has no business dealings with that company and no record of
selling your iPad to them. It is likely that the iPad was originally
sold by Apple in a different country, then resold to you by Becextech in
Australia.

As far as Apple was concerned, your iPad was either a second hand
purchase, or potentially stolen then on-sold to you by a grey market
reseller.

Normally, if an iPad is purchased second hand, the original owner would
have gone through the "erase all content and settings" mechanism to
remove their personal data from the device. If the device was linked to
"Find my iPhone", this requires the password of the original owner's
Apple ID, and once that is entered, the device is deregistered from
"Find my iPhone". It then has no attachment to the original owner's
Apple ID, and the new owner can set it up as a new iPad.

If an iPad is stolen with "Find my iPhone" activated, then the thief (or
recipient of stolen goods) can't remove the Find my iPhone link without
guessing the password for the original owner's Apple ID.

The fact that you couldn't remember the password for the Apple ID which
was used to activate the iPad (and didn't have any other way to prove
you owned that account) was presumably a red flag which pushed Apple
support staff down the "stolen iPad" line of reasoning.

> There is so much emphasis on there being a serial number on the receipt.

Only because the purchase was not from an authorised reseller. All you
had was a receipt that said this company Apple didn't know about had
sold you an iPad. Apple had no way to link that sale to your iPad.

Quote:
It must be false, because there is no serial number on it!!! I had to
really push hard to get a serial number on my iPad receipt after 3.5
years, and just wondering what the normal procedure is.


The normal procedure is not to forget your Apple ID password, and if you
do, use other methods such as security questions or email recovery to
reset the password.

If all that fails, you need to be able to provide sufficient evidence
that you own the device, before Apple will release the activation lock.

In this case, you didn't have sufficient evidence of ownership because
the purchase was from an unauthorised reseller.

Once Becextech produced a document saying they sold an iPad to you with
the same serial number as your iPad, Apple probably changed their mind
and decided there was sufficient evidence it was a legitimate purchase,
even if they still had no records indicating how that iPad got to
Becextech. (The fact that the second invoice indicated the company was
based in Hong Kong rather than Australia might have been a factor,
especially if Apple had sold the iPad in Hong Kong.)

That was sufficient for Apple to release the activation lock on the
device (but not unlock the Apple ID, as you still hadn't established
proof that it was yours).

Quote:
I have sold electronic items since 1964, and never put a serial number on
a receipt for hardware. I have in recent years for software, as it often
ties in with a web delivered product, but never for hardware.


Do you at least keep records of serial numbers of hardware products
sold, with sufficient documentation to link it to the purchaser?

--
David Empson
dempson_at_actrix.gen.nz

nospam
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 3:42 am   



In article <dopqqdFr7rrU1_at_mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed
<rod.speed.aaa_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

All Apple needs to do is to send that to one of the other
Apple IDs that Apple can see Don has used recently, not
to one that was only ever used to setup that particular
ipad all those years ago and was never used again.


the other apple ids aren't relevant.

the apple id that locked the ipad is the only one that matters.

he doesn't remember the password to the apple id nor can he verify
email sent to it, so some *other* verification will be required, which
is an invoice.

and that's exactly what happened.

Quote:
he couldn't, so the next step is an invoice.

He always had that invoice. And an invoice is even easier to
fake than anything else, so proves nothing about ownership.


nonsense.

a forged invoice is trivial to detect.

print up whatever you want, but once they cross-reference it with the
seller, it'll be clear it's a forgery and then you'll be in a lot more
trouble than you already are.

as i said before, the only people who find the verification process to
be a problem are those who benefit from stolen devices.

honest people simply provide the necessary information and the problem
is resolved. or they don't forget their passwords in the first place.

nospam
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 3:45 am   



In article <1mmo010.8enzumhjkozkN%dempson_at_actrix.gen.nz>, David Empson
<dempson_at_actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

Quote:

Other identifying information such as the invoice number allows tracking
the order in the records of Apple or the reseller. I expect there are
internal records of the serial number of the device which was sold.


there definitely is.

Quote:
For a sale through an authorised Apple reseller, there will be
sufficient documentation that Apple supplied that deice to the reseller,
and the reseller's invoice identifies the purchaser, so a matching
invoice/receipt from the purchaser (with the invoice number) proves the
device hasn't been stolen.


yep

Quote:
In your case, the purchase was NOT from an authorised Apple reseller, so
Apple has no way to track the sale of that iPad: they would have a
record of where it was originally sold, and possibly who it was sold to,
but that doesn't match up with your purchase from Becextech, because
Apple has no business dealings with that company and no record of
selling your iPad to them. It is likely that the iPad was originally
sold by Apple in a different country, then resold to you by Becextech in
Australia.

As far as Apple was concerned, your iPad was either a second hand
purchase, or potentially stolen then on-sold to you by a grey market
reseller.

Normally, if an iPad is purchased second hand, the original owner would
have gone through the "erase all content and settings" mechanism to
remove their personal data from the device. If the device was linked to
"Find my iPhone", this requires the password of the original owner's
Apple ID, and once that is entered, the device is deregistered from
"Find my iPhone". It then has no attachment to the original owner's
Apple ID, and the new owner can set it up as a new iPad.

If an iPad is stolen with "Find my iPhone" activated, then the thief (or
recipient of stolen goods) can't remove the Find my iPhone link without
guessing the password for the original owner's Apple ID.

The fact that you couldn't remember the password for the Apple ID which
was used to activate the iPad (and didn't have any other way to prove
you owned that account) was presumably a red flag which pushed Apple
support staff down the "stolen iPad" line of reasoning.


exactly.

Lewis
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 4:17 am   



In message <dopmn1FqclvU1_at_mid.individual.net>
Don McKenzie <5V_at_2.5A> wrote:
Quote:
At this point, can I ask a serious question, and get a sensible answer?

Is there anyone that has an iPad serial on a receipt, and can prove it
by posting a masked version (for your own security), similar to what I
have done? See: http://www.dontronics.com/apple.htm


Every receipt I have from Apple (going back to 2001 in my email). Here is
one:

<https://www.dropbox.com/s/t74vfqnsv2sp1ru/Screenshot%202016-05-02%2020.19.26.png?dl=0>

Quote:
There is so much emphasis on there being a serial number on the
receipt. It must be false, because there is no serial number on it!!!
I had to really push hard to get a serial number on my iPad receipt
after 3.5 years, and just wondering what the normal procedure is.


Had you bought your iPad from an authorized reseller Apple would have
had a record of the ipad being sent to an authorized seller and a record
of it being sold.

Quote:
I have sold electronic items since 1964, and never put a serial number
on a receipt for hardware.


Ever computer, iPad, iPhone, Hard Drive, router, and other serialized
items has had a receipt with the serial number for... oh, the last
twenty years at least.





--
Everybody hates a tourist, especially one who thinks it's all such
laugh. Yeah, and the chip stains and grease will come out in the bath.
You will never understand how it feels to live your life with no meaning
or control, and with nowhere left to go. You are amazed that the exist,
and they burn so bright whilst you can only wonder why.

Lewis
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 4:27 am   



In message <ng8vjg$c89$1_at_news.albasani.net>
AV3 <arvimide_at_earthlink.net> wrote:
Quote:
I checked my e-mail files for purchases over the last ten years. Most
Apple products were bought directly from Apple at one of the two Apple
stores I live near. They had transaction numbers but no serial numbers.


Here's one from 2008:

<https://www.dropbox.com/s/mbl7ihvnn8i6gnh/Screenshot%202016-05-02%2020.22.44.png?dl=0>

Ever serialized purchase has the serial number on the receipt.

(That is to say, everyone Apple product bought in an Apple Store. The
online receipts don't have the serial number, but since they were
purchased with my Apple ID, there's no need, those devices are in my
profile automatically).

--
The King of Marigold was in the kitchen cooking breakfast for the Queen
The Queen was in the parlor playing piano for the children of the King

Rod Speed
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 4:50 am   



nospam <nospam_at_nospam.invalid> wrote
Quote:
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa_at_gmail.com> wrote

All Apple needs to do is to send that to one of the other
Apple IDs that Apple can see Don has used recently, not
to one that was only ever used to setup that particular
ipad all those years ago and was never used again.

the other apple ids aren't relevant.


Wrong when establishing that Don has always been the owner
of that particular ipad. That is in fact impossible to fake, unlike
a receipt with the serial number on it which is completely
trivial for even someone as stupid as you to fake.

> the apple id that locked the ipad is the only one that matters.

Wrong when establishing that Don has always been the owner
of that particular ipad. That is in fact impossible to fake, unlike
a receipt with the serial number on it which is completely
trivial for even someone as stupid as you to fake.

Quote:
he doesn't remember the password to the apple id nor can he verify
email sent to it, so some *other* verification will be required,


And sending that verification to another Apple ID that Apple
knows has been used recently on that particular ipad is a MUCH
better way to verifying that Don has always owned that particular
ipad and still does because that can not be faked.

> which is an invoice.

Which is completely trivial for any thief to fake and so is completely
useless as verification that Don didn't steal that ipad.

> and that's exactly what happened.

You have no idea why Apple decided that the ipad had not been stolen.

Quote:
he couldn't, so the next step is an invoice.

He always had that invoice. And an invoice is even easier to
fake than anything else, so proves nothing about ownership.

nonsense.


Your sig is sposed to be last with a line with just -- on it in front of it,
stupid.

Quote:
a forged invoice is trivial to detect.

print up whatever you want, but once
they cross-reference it with the seller,


If they do that, there doesn't need to be a serial number on it, fuckwit.

Don always had that receipt that Apple could have done that with.

> it'll be clear it's a forgery

Not necessarily, the seller may not choose to
keep the records for that long or may have gone
bust and be impossible to check with now.

> and then you'll be in a lot more trouble than you already are.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

Mate of mine who does quite a bit of maintenance work on
laptops etc came across one that had clearly been stolen.

The cops couldn't have cared less and didn't want to know.

Quote:
as i said before, the only people who find the verification process
to be a problem are those who benefit from stolen devices.


Even sillier than you usually manage. There are a great raft of
others who do too, most obviously with those who no longer
have the receipt for what they perfectly legally purchased, or
never had any for what they bought used, etc etc etc.

I have never ever got a single receipt for any of a great raft
of stuff that I have bought used, mostly from garage/yard sales.

The only thing I have ever had any paperwork for was a trailer for
which I had the usual transfer of registration for and I wouldn't have
even had that if it had not been registered at the time I bought it.

> honest people simply provide the necessary information

So did Don, fuckwit.

> and the problem is resolved.

It wasn't when Don did that.

Lewis
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 6:29 am   



In message <020520162245499384%nospam_at_nospam.invalid>
nospam <nospam_at_nospam.invalid> wrote:
Quote:
In article <slrnnig2nk.21ra.g.kreme_at_amelia.local>, Lewis
g.kreme_at_gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

I have sold electronic items since 1964, and never put a serial number
on a receipt for hardware.

Ever computer, iPad, iPhone, Hard Drive, router, and other serialized
items has had a receipt with the serial number for... oh, the last
twenty years at least.

longer than that.

any seller that doesn't keep track of who bought which serial numbers,
whether it's on the receipt or in their own database, is begging for
problems, not just asking for them.


I no longer have the receipt for my Bondi Blue iMac, or any of my
preformas, G3s, the IIci, Mac Classic, Mac SE FDHD, Apple //gs, Apple
//e, //c+, or ][+.

I know for a fact my receipt for the apple //e had the receipt since
that was required to get the new ROMs to upgrade to the //e Enhanced
with the 65C02 and some new ROMS (most notably, a new character set for
creating a sort of on screen GUI out of 'text').


--
Nihil est--in vita priore ego imperator Romanus fui.

AV3
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 7:30 am   



On 5/2/16, 15:04, Don McKenzie wrote:
Quote:
At this point, can I ask a serious question, and get a sensible answer?

Is there anyone that has an iPad serial on a receipt, and can prove it
by posting a masked version (for your own security), similar to what I
have done? See: http://www.dontronics.com/apple.htm

There is so much emphasis on there being a serial number on the receipt.
It must be false, because there is no serial number on it!!!
I had to really push hard to get a serial number on my iPad receipt
after 3.5 years, and just wondering what the normal procedure is.

I have sold electronic items since 1964, and never put a serial number
on a receipt for hardware. I have in recent years for software, as it
often ties in with a web delivered product, but never for hardware.



I checked my e-mail files for purchases over the last ten years. Most
Apple products were bought directly from Apple at one of the two Apple
stores I live near. They had transaction numbers but no serial numbers.
Peripheral products, mostly printers, were cheap and bought from third
party dealers, who didn't confirm the transactions by e-mail, and the
only record I had is credit card receipts, which I discarded long ago. I
bought a few items (including my very first Apple computer) from a now
much reduced dealer J & R, which as best I remember supplied only paper
receipts/credit card receipts, long ago discarded.


I presume the Apple transaction numbers could be cross-referenced to
serial numbers, but I have no experience of that. Of course, this is
only relevant to iPods, iPads, iPhones, and my Apple Watch, which are
subject to syncing. I presume that syncing can only work with the
relevant item, whose serial number is known to and detectable by Apple.
Apple sends me notices to initiate updating and upgrading my computer
hard- and software, and the App Store app also contains such notices.


I update my Apple password from time to time, and all updates and
upgrades have required only the current password, not the original.


--
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
||Arnold VICTOR, New York City, i. e., <arvimideQ_at_Wearthlink.net> ||
||Arnoldo VIKTORO, Nov-jorkurbo, t. e., <arvimideQ_at_Wearthlink.net> ||
||Remove capital letters from e-mail address for correct address/ ||
|| Forigu majusklajn literojn el e-poŝta adreso por ĝusta adreso ||
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++

nospam
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 7:30 am   



In article <ng8vjg$c89$1_at_news.albasani.net>, AV3
<arvimide_at_earthlink.net> wrote:

Quote:

I presume the Apple transaction numbers could be cross-referenced to
serial numbers, but I have no experience of that.


they absolutely can, as can other companies.

Quote:
Of course, this is
only relevant to iPods, iPads, iPhones, and my Apple Watch, which are
subject to syncing.


it's relevant to all products, apple or not.

Quote:
I presume that syncing can only work with the
relevant item, whose serial number is known to and detectable by Apple.


syncing relies on the device id, not the serial number.

Quote:
Apple sends me notices to initiate updating and upgrading my computer
hard- and software, and the App Store app also contains such notices.


that's based on what version the app store app sees.

Quote:
I update my Apple password from time to time, and all updates and
upgrades have required only the current password, not the original.


don't forget your password, or you'll be in the same situation don was.

nospam
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 7:30 am   



In article <slrnnig2nk.21ra.g.kreme_at_amelia.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme_at_gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

Quote:
I have sold electronic items since 1964, and never put a serial number
on a receipt for hardware.

Ever computer, iPad, iPhone, Hard Drive, router, and other serialized
items has had a receipt with the serial number for... oh, the last
twenty years at least.


longer than that.

any seller that doesn't keep track of who bought which serial numbers,
whether it's on the receipt or in their own database, is begging for
problems, not just asking for them.

Don McKenzie
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 3:00 pm   



Thank you to those people that got back to me regarding iPad receipts, and for displaying them. Yes it looks more common
for Apple themselves to put a serial number on a receipt, but the resellers and non-authorized dealers don't seem to go
to this trouble.

Cheers Don...



--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics will be launching a new Shopping Cart. We are hoping to migrate
across to this site on Sunday May 15th (all things going to plan!)
It will be located at the following link: https://www.shop-dontronics.com/

Existing site - http://www.dontronics-shop.com

Jasen Betts
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 5:11 pm   



On 2016-05-02, Don McKenzie <5V_at_2.5A> wrote:
Quote:
At this point, can I ask a serious question, and get a sensible answer?

Is there anyone that has an iPad serial on a receipt, and can prove it by posting a masked version (for your own
security), similar to what I have done? See: http://www.dontronics.com/apple.htm

There is so much emphasis on there being a serial number on the receipt.
It must be false, because there is no serial number on it!!!
I had to really push hard to get a serial number on my iPad receipt after 3.5 years, and just wondering what the normal
procedure is.

I have sold electronic items since 1964, and never put a serial number on a receipt for hardware. I have in recent years
for software, as it often ties in with a web delivered product, but never for hardware.


when I buy hard-disks from wholesalers the invoice has the serial
number, this makes things simple when considering warranty claims.

--
\_(ツ)_

Lewis
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 8:07 pm   



In message <nga108$lc9$1_at_gonzo.alcatraz>
Jasen Betts <jasen_at_xnet.co.nz> wrote:
Quote:
On 2016-05-02, Don McKenzie <5V_at_2.5A> wrote:
At this point, can I ask a serious question, and get a sensible answer?

Is there anyone that has an iPad serial on a receipt, and can prove it by posting a masked version (for your own
security), similar to what I have done? See: http://www.dontronics.com/apple.htm

There is so much emphasis on there being a serial number on the receipt.
It must be false, because there is no serial number on it!!!
I had to really push hard to get a serial number on my iPad receipt after 3.5 years, and just wondering what the normal
procedure is.

I have sold electronic items since 1964, and never put a serial number on a receipt for hardware. I have in recent years
for software, as it often ties in with a web delivered product, but never for hardware.

when I buy hard-disks from wholesalers the invoice has the serial
number, this makes things simple when considering warranty claims.


When buying hard Drivers or mother boards or video cards or any sort of
product with a serial number, the stores scan the UPC code, and then the
bar code for the serial number. For a mother board, they will also scan
the barcodes for the MAC addresses of the network interfaces on the
motherboard.

And while the online Apple Store doesn't show you the serial number on
the default receipt, it does have it when you print an invoice.

The hard drives I bought from Amazon most recently don't have a SN on
the receipt, but that may be because they were sold by another company.

--
Can't seem to face up to the facts
Tense and nervous and I can't relax
Can't sleep, bed's on fire
Don't touch me I'm a real live wire

nospam
Guest

Tue May 03, 2016 8:47 pm   



In article <dor7mfF4vq3U1_at_mid.individual.net>, Don McKenzie <5V_at_2.5A>
wrote:

Quote:
Thank you to those people that got back to me regarding iPad receipts, and
for displaying them. Yes it looks more common
for Apple themselves to put a serial number on a receipt, but the resellers
and non-authorized dealers don't seem to go
to this trouble.


yes they do.

you're in denial.

not only do you refuse to accept responsibility for forgetting multiple
passwords, but you're going well out of your way to rationalize it.

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