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Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:45 pm   



news18 <news18_at_woa.com.au> wrote:
Quote:
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 12:46:00 +1000, Taupe wrote:


* The offering in 3D printers are one of those periphrals that can only
improve over time.

A while back I read they managed to 3D print a jet engine (all metal),
so it is possible to do quality intricate things.

If you a hundred thousand dolars or so.
Was it just because "we can" as a model or did it fly?
They have been able to orint ICE engines for40 years, but not one that
run like real engine. that was the old powder and resin printers.


There's a lot of work in 3D printing with aircraft. I'm not sure if
anyone is yet printing entire jet engines for production, but they
are making parts for them.

For rockets, there are a number of companies 3D printing their
engines with serious intentions.

Here's one particularly ambitious one:
http://www.3ders.org/articles/20190118-relativity-space-gets-air-force-approval-to-launch-3d-printed-rockets-from-cape-canaveral.html

"95 percent of the rocket through 3D-printed automation"

Quote:
The available consumer printers may not be up to this quality, just
introductory device to tinker with & print chess pieces?

FWI seen, exactly.


They can't print metal, but they can print plastic about well as a
cheaper (possibly the expensive ones too) metal 3D printer can
print metal.

There have been many strength test experiments published online over
the years, though I've leave finding them as an excercise for the
reader.

--
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#_ < |\| |< _#

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:45 pm   



Taupe <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
I have a auto. coffee machine with a busted Gear & was wondering if it was
possible to replace the gear by 3D printing it.

It is a significant piece as it compresses the ground coffee with plunger
before hot water forced through.

with age/ over-use/misalignment? the teeth on the gears have broken off (as
it
is made of plastic )

Is it possible to make a solid gear able to withstand the above forces or is
the method of 3D printing (i.e built up droplets at a time) make it
structurally week, not as strong as "injection moulding"?


Hmm, lots of answers here from people who have obviously never had
anything to do with a 3D printer.

Keeping it short:
3D printers can print gears well. There are two key types for home
use. One sucks up plastic "filament", melts it, then squirts it onto
a build platform in a pattern that, layer-by-layer, builds up a 3D
shape. Another shines light onto a vat of light-curable resin (the
light can be from a laser beam directed by a mirror, a projector, or
most recently an LED display panel (possibly still attached to a
smart phone)). The former is what ALDI are selling, and is also
better suited to printing gears and other strong objects than the
latter. I think OfficeWorks have Makerbot ones, which are also of
that type, but I haven't actually seen them in the branch that I
go to.

Ideally use ABS instead of PLA because it is less brittle. ABS is
slightly more difficult to print with and requires a slightly higher
temperature to print with, so some models, I think including the ALDI
ones, don't support its use.

The issue of layer separation, which I think you're getting at, is
only significant where force is in the opposite plane to that where
the layers were built up. That is to say horizontal with the object
in the same orientation that it was in when it was printed on the
3D printer's build platform. For a gear, this would be as you would
normally print such an object. So it will be as strong as a solid
object, as long as the infill setting is set to "solid" or "100%",
otherwise gaps are left inside the object to save time and plastic.

There are countless examples of gears on thingiverse.com, including
software to automatically generate gears to particular
specifications. Sorry, I don't have time to find links. I don't
actually remember printing gears with mine, I have a whole bunch
from old printers and toner cartridges used for DIY projects. I have
printed pulleys, which worked well. Though last time I decided it was
quicker to just make some small ones out of wood with a round file
and hole saw.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Xeno
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:45 am   



On 29/1/19 8:51 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Quote:
Taupe <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
I have a auto. coffee machine with a busted Gear & was wondering if it was
possible to replace the gear by 3D printing it.

It is a significant piece as it compresses the ground coffee with plunger
before hot water forced through.

with age/ over-use/misalignment? the teeth on the gears have broken off (as
it
is made of plastic )

Is it possible to make a solid gear able to withstand the above forces or is
the method of 3D printing (i.e built up droplets at a time) make it
structurally week, not as strong as "injection moulding"?

Hmm, lots of answers here from people who have obviously never had
anything to do with a 3D printer.


For gear subject to any degree of loading, you need to use an ACETAL
plastic of which Delrin is a type. You can also use nylon but the
plastic supplied with the Aldi 3D printer is adequate only for low
loadings. As to a gear made from it, it just won't cut the mustard.

If you want to print *gears*, you would be well advised to seek out the
services of a professional 3D printer equipped with something more than
a *toy* 3D printer - which is all the Aldi printer is. These enterprises
are well established in the commercial space for all types of 3D
printing but the cost will far exceed that of a manufacturer supplied
spare part.

If the resultant 3D gear requires any post production machining, then
you would be better advised to fully machine one from scratch from an
appropriate Delrin material.






--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Taupe
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:45 am   



Xeno wrote:
Quote:
On 29/1/19 8:51 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Taupe <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
I have a auto. coffee machine with a busted Gear & was wondering if
it was possible to replace the gear by 3D printing it.

It is a significant piece as it compresses the ground coffee with
plunger before hot water forced through.

with age/ over-use/misalignment? the teeth on the gears have broken
off (as it
is made of plastic )

Is it possible to make a solid gear able to withstand the above
forces or is the method of 3D printing (i.e built up droplets at a
time) make it structurally week, not as strong as "injection
moulding"?

Hmm, lots of answers here from people who have obviously never had
anything to do with a 3D printer.

For gear subject to any degree of loading, you need to use an ACETAL
plastic of which Delrin is a type. You can also use nylon but the
plastic supplied with the Aldi 3D printer is adequate only for low
loadings. As to a gear made from it, it just won't cut the mustard.

If you want to print *gears*, you would be well advised to seek out
the services of a professional 3D printer equipped with something
more than a *toy* 3D printer - which is all the Aldi printer is.
These enterprises are well established in the commercial space for
all types of 3D printing but the cost will far exceed that of a
manufacturer supplied spare part.

If the resultant 3D gear requires any post production machining, then
you would be better advised to fully machine one from scratch from an
appropriate Delrin material.


I suspected as much. It'd be cheaper finding a spare form manufacturer.

Jasen Betts
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:41 am   



On 2019-01-28, Computer Nerd Kev <not_at_telling.you.invalid> wrote:
Quote:
news18 <news18_at_woa.com.au> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 12:46:00 +1000, Taupe wrote:


* The offering in 3D printers are one of those periphrals that can only
improve over time.

A while back I read they managed to 3D print a jet engine (all metal),
so it is possible to do quality intricate things.

If you a hundred thousand dolars or so.
Was it just because "we can" as a model or did it fly?
They have been able to orint ICE engines for40 years, but not one that
run like real engine. that was the old powder and resin printers.

There's a lot of work in 3D printing with aircraft. I'm not sure if
anyone is yet printing entire jet engines for production, but they
are making parts for them.

For rockets, there are a number of companies 3D printing their
engines with serious intentions.


RocketLab is already using printed engines for commercial satellite launches.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_(rocket_engine)

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

keithr0
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:45 pm   



On 1/29/2019 1:33 PM, Taupe wrote:
Quote:
Xeno wrote:
On 29/1/19 8:51 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Taupe <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
I have a auto. coffee machine with a busted Gear & was wondering if
it was possible to replace the gear by 3D printing it.

It is a significant piece as it compresses the ground coffee with
plunger before hot water forced through.

with age/ over-use/misalignment? the teeth on the gears have broken
off (as it
is made of plastic )

Is it possible to make a solid gear able to withstand the above
forces or is the method of 3D printing (i.e built up droplets at a
time) make it structurally week, not as strong as "injection
moulding"?

Hmm, lots of answers here from people who have obviously never had
anything to do with a 3D printer.

For gear subject to any degree of loading, you need to use an ACETAL
plastic of which Delrin is a type. You can also use nylon but the
plastic supplied with the Aldi 3D printer is adequate only for low
loadings. As to a gear made from it, it just won't cut the mustard.

If you want to print *gears*, you would be well advised to seek out
the services of a professional 3D printer equipped with something
more than a *toy* 3D printer - which is all the Aldi printer is.
These enterprises are well established in the commercial space for
all types of 3D printing but the cost will far exceed that of a
manufacturer supplied spare part.

If the resultant 3D gear requires any post production machining, then
you would be better advised to fully machine one from scratch from an
appropriate Delrin material.

I suspected as much. It'd be cheaper finding a spare form manufacturer.


A good decision, not only wold the product produced by the toy printers
sold by Aldi and others be not very likely to stand the strain, but
you'd have to write a definition file to feed to the printer to make it.
Do you have any idea how to do that.

Xeno
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:45 pm   



On 29/1/19 10:29 pm, keithr0 wrote:
Quote:
On 1/29/2019 1:33 PM, Taupe wrote:
Xeno wrote:
On 29/1/19 8:51 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Taupe <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
I have a auto. coffee machine with a busted Gear & was wondering if
it was possible to replace the gear by 3D printing it.

It is a significant piece as it compresses the ground coffee with
plunger before hot water forced through.

with age/ over-use/misalignment? the teeth on the gears have broken
off (as it
is made of plastic )

Is it possible to make a solid gear able to withstand the above
forces or is the method of 3D printing  (i.e built up droplets at a
time) make it structurally week, not as strong as "injection
moulding"?

Hmm, lots of answers here from people who have obviously never had
anything to do with a 3D printer.

For gear subject to any degree of loading, you need to use an ACETAL
plastic of which Delrin is a type. You can also use nylon but the
plastic supplied with the Aldi 3D printer is adequate only for low
loadings. As to a gear made from it, it just won't cut the mustard.

If you want to print *gears*, you would be well advised to seek out
the services of a professional 3D printer equipped with something
more than a *toy* 3D printer - which is all the Aldi printer is.
These enterprises are well established in the commercial space for
all types of 3D printing but the cost will far exceed that of a
manufacturer supplied spare part.

If the resultant 3D gear requires any post production machining, then
you would be better advised to fully machine one from scratch from an
appropriate Delrin material.

I suspected as much. It'd be cheaper finding a spare form manufacturer.

A good decision, not only wold the product produced by the toy printers
sold by Aldi and others be not very likely to stand the strain, but
you'd have to write a definition file to feed to the printer to make it.
Do you have any idea how to do that.

I daresay the person writing the definition file would need a reasonable
understanding of gear design and that's not a trivial aspect of
engineering. The gear and tooth systems section of my Bosch Automotive
handbook gives me the impression that it isn't a trivial task to design
gear drive systems. Wouldn't be beyond the capabilities of a first class
machinist. Years ago a friend used to make up custom chain sprockets as
a business in his workshop at home - not quite as complex as some gear
systems.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

news18
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:45 pm   



On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 23:03:30 +1100, Xeno wrote:

Quote:
On 29/1/19 10:29 pm, keithr0 wrote:

A good decision, not only wold the product produced by the toy printers
sold by Aldi and others be not very likely to stand the strain, but
you'd have to write a definition file to feed to the printer to make
it.
Do you have any idea how to do that.

I daresay the person writing the definition file would need a reasonable
understanding of gear design and that's not a trivial aspect of
engineering. The gear and tooth systems section of my Bosch Automotive
handbook gives me the impression that it isn't a trivial task to design
gear drive systems. Wouldn't be beyond the capabilities of a first class
machinist. Years ago a friend used to make up custom chain sprockets as
a business in his workshop at home - not quite as complex as some gear
systems.


How hard woud it be to modify an existing design on the thingyverse(?)?

Xeno
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:45 pm   



On 29/1/19 11:07 pm, news18 wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 23:03:30 +1100, Xeno wrote:

On 29/1/19 10:29 pm, keithr0 wrote:

A good decision, not only wold the product produced by the toy printers
sold by Aldi and others be not very likely to stand the strain, but
you'd have to write a definition file to feed to the printer to make
it.
Do you have any idea how to do that.

I daresay the person writing the definition file would need a reasonable
understanding of gear design and that's not a trivial aspect of
engineering. The gear and tooth systems section of my Bosch Automotive
handbook gives me the impression that it isn't a trivial task to design
gear drive systems. Wouldn't be beyond the capabilities of a first class
machinist. Years ago a friend used to make up custom chain sprockets as
a business in his workshop at home - not quite as complex as some gear
systems.

How hard woud it be to modify an existing design on the thingyverse(?)?

That depends on your understanding of gears - and your ability to
accurately measure the gear you have.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:45 pm   



Xeno <xenolith_at_optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Quote:
On 29/1/19 11:07 pm, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 23:03:30 +1100, Xeno wrote:

On 29/1/19 10:29 pm, keithr0 wrote:

A good decision, not only wold the product produced by the toy printers
sold by Aldi and others be not very likely to stand the strain, but
you'd have to write a definition file to feed to the printer to make
it.
Do you have any idea how to do that.

I daresay the person writing the definition file would need a reasonable
understanding of gear design and that's not a trivial aspect of
engineering. The gear and tooth systems section of my Bosch Automotive
handbook gives me the impression that it isn't a trivial task to design
gear drive systems. Wouldn't be beyond the capabilities of a first class
machinist. Years ago a friend used to make up custom chain sprockets as
a business in his workshop at home - not quite as complex as some gear
systems.

How hard woud it be to modify an existing design on the thingyverse(?)?

That depends on your understanding of gears - and your ability to
accurately measure the gear you have.


Gah, you're all following up on a post where I pointed out that on
Thingiverse you can find software that will DESIGN THE GEARS FOR YOU.

You just need to set up the software and tell it the key parameters.
It may even work with the "customiser" thing on the Thingiverse
website, which I haven't tried.

Granted if the OP can't use callipers, then they're going to be
stuck. But then the only option is an original replacement part
anyway.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:45 pm   



news18 <news18_at_woa.com.au> wrote:
Quote:
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 22:02:17 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:


The available consumer printers may not be up to this quality, just
introductory device to tinker with & print chess pieces?

FWI seen, exactly.

They can't print metal, but they can print plastic about well as a
cheaper (possibly the expensive ones too) metal 3D printer can print
metal.

My understanding is that they now can "print metal" and that some of the
motor companies as well as others are doing so. Mainly prototypes I
believe.


My point is that the home ones can't. I have heard of some special
filaments that can be fired like clay to produce a matal-ish object
after being 3D printed.

There are countless commercial metal 3D printers, and a small few
would fit on a desk like the home ones do, but it would be tricky
to find one under $10,000 (and another zero soon gets added for
more advanced models).

Quote:
First we will see them used to produce the "moulds" to shape metal as 3D
printing is a relatively inefficent production method compared to some
other methods.


Lots of people have done that. I'm planing to try it myself soon. The
plastic (ABS at least) can actually be used in place of wax in the
"lost wax" metal casting method, which saves a step.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

news18
Guest

Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:45 am   



On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 08:33:26 +1100, Xeno wrote:

Quote:
On 29/1/19 11:07 pm, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 23:03:30 +1100, Xeno wrote:

On 29/1/19 10:29 pm, keithr0 wrote:

A good decision, not only wold the product produced by the toy
printers sold by Aldi and others be not very likely to stand the
strain, but you'd have to write a definition file to feed to the
printer to make it.
Do you have any idea how to do that.

I daresay the person writing the definition file would need a
reasonable understanding of gear design and that's not a trivial
aspect of engineering. The gear and tooth systems section of my Bosch
Automotive handbook gives me the impression that it isn't a trivial
task to design gear drive systems. Wouldn't be beyond the capabilities
of a first class machinist. Years ago a friend used to make up custom
chain sprockets as a business in his workshop at home - not quite as
complex as some gear systems.

How hard woud it be to modify an existing design on the thingyverse(?)?

That depends on your understanding of gears - and your ability to
accurately measure the gear you have.


So you are suggesting using a micrometer rather than vernier calipers?

Xeno
Guest

Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:45 am   



On 30/1/19 11:33 am, news18 wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 08:33:26 +1100, Xeno wrote:

On 29/1/19 11:07 pm, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 23:03:30 +1100, Xeno wrote:

On 29/1/19 10:29 pm, keithr0 wrote:

A good decision, not only wold the product produced by the toy
printers sold by Aldi and others be not very likely to stand the
strain, but you'd have to write a definition file to feed to the
printer to make it.
Do you have any idea how to do that.

I daresay the person writing the definition file would need a
reasonable understanding of gear design and that's not a trivial
aspect of engineering. The gear and tooth systems section of my Bosch
Automotive handbook gives me the impression that it isn't a trivial
task to design gear drive systems. Wouldn't be beyond the capabilities
of a first class machinist. Years ago a friend used to make up custom
chain sprockets as a business in his workshop at home - not quite as
complex as some gear systems.

How hard woud it be to modify an existing design on the thingyverse(?)?

That depends on your understanding of gears - and your ability to
accurately measure the gear you have.

So you are suggesting using a micrometer rather than vernier calipers?

No, I'm suggesting that you need more dimensions than *diameter* and
calipers (or micrometers) will be of little use there. Also, you need to
identify the gear form and it will likely be helical cut if heavily
loaded. There's a lot more to gears than you think.

Anyway, the point is moot since the Aldi 3D printer will not print
sufficiently robust gears because, for a start, the base material is
wrong for the task and it goes downhill from there.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Computer Nerd Kev
Guest

Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:45 pm   



I tried to post this yesterday, but my internet died.

Xeno <xenolith_at_optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Quote:
On 29/1/19 8:51 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Taupe <jonahreal_at_yopmail.com> wrote:
I have a auto. coffee machine with a busted Gear & was wondering if it was
possible to replace the gear by 3D printing it.

It is a significant piece as it compresses the ground coffee with plunger
before hot water forced through.

with age/ over-use/misalignment? the teeth on the gears have broken off (as
it
is made of plastic )

Is it possible to make a solid gear able to withstand the above forces or is
the method of 3D printing (i.e built up droplets at a time) make it
structurally week, not as strong as "injection moulding"?

Hmm, lots of answers here from people who have obviously never had
anything to do with a 3D printer.

For gear subject to any degree of loading, you need to use an ACETAL
plastic of which Delrin is a type. You can also use nylon but the
plastic supplied with the Aldi 3D printer is adequate only for low
loadings. As to a gear made from it, it just won't cut the mustard.


Well I've never had anything to do with coffee machines. Where
loading sticks on the significance scale is something to be
determined for the application. To my definition, ABS can take
a degree of loading, I wouldn't know whether it's up to this
application. I said that there are studies of strength available
online.

If the 3D printer can get up to 245degC at the print head, you can
print with Nylon, though it might take some experimentation:
https://reprap.org/wiki/Polyamide

Quote:
If you want to print *gears*, you would be well advised to seek out the
services of a professional 3D printer equipped with something more than
a *toy* 3D printer - which is all the Aldi printer is. These enterprises
are well established in the commercial space for all types of 3D
printing but the cost will far exceed that of a manufacturer supplied
spare part.


So would a "toy" 3D printer anyway, so one has to assume that the OP
isn't able to find a replacement from the manufacturer (or has been
given an unreasonable price for one).

Quote:
If the resultant 3D gear requires any post production machining, then
you would be better advised to fully machine one from scratch from an
appropriate Delrin material.


Yes, buying a capable CNC machine would probably be the best bet. It
will cost more though (probably quite a lot more).

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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