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Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:45 am   



On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 4:06:31 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 00:17:16 -0800 (PST), bill.sloman_at_ieee.org wrote:


Likewise with the increase in demand for electricity there will be a need for intelligent control of charging to properly utilize the existing electrical infrastructure rather than building a lot of generation and transmission that aren't required.

100% electric cars in the US would require a 30% increase in the total power generated to keep them charged.

If the cars mostly got charged overnight, when the existing transmission network is lightly loaded, this shouldn't require any extra transmission capacity (not that the people who build it and charge for it are likely to admit this).

Limiting charging to nights only means that solar power for charging
could't be used ?


What are you saying? Do you really think that excess power during the day would not be used? Do you not understand the meaning of the word "mostly"?

The point is car charging is not a power use that has a fixed time of day like most uses. Mostly it can be scheduled to optimize the best use of the power grid. But to do this will require the utilities to get on the stick and figure out ways to make this happen effectively. I don't know if they can react in time to keep up with the transition to EVs. It may happen more quickly than any of us realize.

In five years virtually ever car maker will have their own EV models on the road and there will be a network of charging installed to support them. This will not be a significant drain on the grid, but by this time the utilities will be working hard to capitalize on the situation. I can't say what this will entail, but I'd be willing to bet it results in additional costs being passed onto the consumer. So consumers need to get in touch with their governments to get ahead of this and require the utilities to find ways to mitigate the problems of charging EVs while there is time to implement them and avoid giving the utilities an opportunity to gouge consumers.


Rick C.

-- Get 6 months of free supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:45 pm   



On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 8:06:31 PM UTC+11, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 00:17:16 -0800 (PST), bill.sloman_at_ieee.org wrote:


Likewise with the increase in demand for electricity there will be a need for intelligent control of charging to properly utilize the existing electrical infrastructure rather than building a lot of generation and transmission that aren't required.

100% electric cars in the US would require a 30% increase in the total power generated to keep them charged.

If the cars mostly got charged overnight, when the existing transmission network is lightly loaded, this shouldn't require any extra transmission capacity (not that the people who build it and charge for it are likely to admit this).

Limiting charging to nights only means that solar power for charging
couldn't be used ?


Depends where you put the energy storage. Thermal solar stores the energy as heat (as in hot molten salt) and you can turn that into electricity overnight.

The proposition was that if cars got charged overnight, then the existing transmission system wouldn't get overloaded. If your generating system was heavily reliant on solar cells, you might have to build extra transmission lines to cope with the extra load, but since large scale solar farms tend to be well away from the places where people have built generating plants, the grid operators are already claiming this an excuse to build even more poles and wires without bothering to throw in electric vehicles as an extra justification.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:45 pm   



On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:00:44 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
Quote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 8:06:31 PM UTC+11, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 00:17:16 -0800 (PST), bill.sloman_at_ieee.org wrote:


Likewise with the increase in demand for electricity there will be a need for intelligent control of charging to properly utilize the existing electrical infrastructure rather than building a lot of generation and transmission that aren't required.

100% electric cars in the US would require a 30% increase in the total power generated to keep them charged.

If the cars mostly got charged overnight, when the existing transmission network is lightly loaded, this shouldn't require any extra transmission capacity (not that the people who build it and charge for it are likely to admit this).

Limiting charging to nights only means that solar power for charging
couldn't be used ?

Depends where you put the energy storage. Thermal solar stores the energy as heat (as in hot molten salt) and you can turn that into electricity overnight.

The proposition was that if cars got charged overnight, then the existing transmission system wouldn't get overloaded. If your generating system was heavily reliant on solar cells, you might have to build extra transmission lines to cope with the extra load, but since large scale solar farms tend to be well away from the places where people have built generating plants, the grid operators are already claiming this an excuse to build even more poles and wires without bothering to throw in electric vehicles as an extra justification.


Both of you seem to be ignoring the fact that the grid is sized to carry the full generating capacity. As long as EVs are charged without adding to the generating capacity, i.e. charged at other than peak times, no addition to generation or transmission capacity is needed. Much of the 5% of the time when cars are not available for charging is during the peak power consumption times when there is no available power to charge them with. Doesn't that work out well?

Rick C.

-+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:45 pm   



On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 9:21:01 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 3:17:20 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 4:11:02 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 8:54:27 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 2:54:40 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 01:03:36 -0500, bitrex <user_at_example.net> wrote:
On 01/03/2019 10:23 PM, amdx wrote:
On 1/2/2019 10:47 PM, bitrex wrote:


<snip>

Quote:
Charger congestion could become a limiting turn-off for electric car
owners. Gas fillups are faster than recharges, but gas stations are
already crowded in many places; the real estate is more valuable as
apartment buildings.

But everybody has electricity in their homes, and their garages. The average car spends 95% of its time parked, and it makes sense to charge it where it's parked, rather than having to make trip to a charging station.

That's a great idea, often expressed as ABC, "Always Be Charging" and can work all the time except when it doesn't. Your support of it is based on a single data point and as we've discussed before this is not enough information to adequately characterize the situation.

Which "single data point" would that be?

You don't like the whole idea, but that makes you a single data point.

You know exactly what I am talking about,


You may like to think so, but it's revealing that you didn't identify the "single data point" that you are claiming that you have identified.

> but you like to turn to personal attacks when you don't have a valid argument.

There's nothing particularly personal in asking you to identify the "single data point".

> Your 95% number seems to be the be-all factoid that justifies so much of your thinking regarding EVs. Unfortunately there is a *lot* of information that single datum hides.

An average is single data point.

The UK average is 96.5%

The Australian figure seems to be 96% - 80% of the time parked at home, 16% of the time parked away from home.

We did discuss how the proportion of cars parked changes during the day, and I dug up a link that showed that proportion didn't drop much below 88% at any time - it may look as if every car in the area is on the road at peak commuting times, but the figures don't seem to support that point of view.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-drivers-are-on-the-road-at-any-given-time-in-the-US

> > > There are two big issues, the first of which is travel. Tesla built a Supercharger network to support travel.

But few people spend much of their driving time "travelling". You seem to be unusual in this respect.

Quote:
With an EPA range of 300 miles there needs to be chargers along the highways enough that the range can be properly utilized. There is a location in Quartzsite, AZ with only 8 chargers for many miles. It has become a recurring congestion point. I'm sure Tesla will resolve the issue sometime soon, but with the increased sales from the model 3 this will happen in other locations as well.

The other issue is that many locations simply don't have facilities and there is no money to add them. L2 chargers are all that is needed for long term parking (home and work are the most useful). But many home locations simply don't have facilities to support this and it can be very expensive to add them.

For some undefined value of "very expensive". It's just another power point.

One example I know of a person was quoted $8,000 to install a 240 volt outlet by her parking space in the garage of the apartment building in CA. CA has a law that says the apartment owners have to accommodate her needs, but at her expense. They seem to be cooperating with her, but the work involved is not like adding a 20 foot wire and outlet in your garage.


That's exactly the physical work involved. It's easy enough to find ways to charge more on top of this - mechanically robust protection for what otherwise would be an accessible power lead, and an insurance inspection to prove that putting in the wiring is not going to set up any kid of potentially hazardous situation. Lazy apartment owners know how to get out of inconvenient requests.

> There are other issues involved in such situations. One that would concern me is vandalism. Because they are new I would expect some percentage of them to be damaged or the cables stolen for the copper inside. But then I'm not an apartment type of person.

The parking area in our garage is not accessible to the public. There are key-operated gates on every entry point. The cars stored there are a lot more valuable than a length of copper cable.

> $8,000 on top of a $35,000 car is a bit rich for a lot of people.

It isn't going to be the price an average car owner would have to pay.

> So charging at fast chargers is a better option for them just like they don't have their own wells or grow their own food.

Scarcely parallel examples. The average garage has a light circuit. Most have power points adequate for regular power tools. Plugging a car charger into such a power point isn't comparable with digging a well.

Quote:
Even though they are just 240 volt circuits someone has to pay for the electricity so they need to be connected to the appropriate meter and then run to an appropriate parking space.

The current drawn has to be metered - which isn't a big deal - and even parking meters can now recognise regular cash cards.

Yep, some day they will happen. I recall paying $2 an hour to park in Bethesda, MD (a restaurant Mecca). It would be nice to get something for that money. But those meters don't have power.


The local parking meters have enough power to run a cash-card reader. In Canada a parking meter has a low-powered power socket for your car's radiator warmer - and your parking charge pays for that current.

> Someone would need to pay for installing chargers at each meter. That's a *lot* of money to cough up even if it makes money in the end. It won't happen overnight and in the mean time there aren't good places to charge in general, other than at the fast chargers or at home if possible.

Parking meters already cost $500-$600 each. Smart meters already need a mains electricity supply and the information link to report and verify credit card transactions, and beefing that up to support domestic charging currents isn't going to make much difference to the price - which is mostly digging the holes and filling them in afterwards.

https://www.concordma.gov/DocumentCenter/View/1495/Concord-Technology-Memo-PDF

Quote:
For the vast majority of people charging at home will deal with 90% of their needs. This is the charging method that is getting little attention, especially from people like Larkin.

John Larkin gets his thinking from denialist web sites, which are set up by people who want to keeping making money out of selling gasoline.

I know. He seems to have a particular bug up his ass about EVs. Even if there were no environmental advantage to them at all (which some people will claim) they are pretty awesome vehicles in their own right. One of their greatest advantages is the acceleration. Merging into traffic is a breeze. While on the entrance ramp at 30 I can literally punch the accelerator as a car is going by and my speed is matched in two seconds as I merge in behind. In fact, I have to be very careful to not overdo it and end up beside the other car. lol

The quiet is amazing too. No roar of the engine. I can actually listen to music and enjoy it almost like being in my living room! Better actually as my stereo is rather old and not as good as the sound system in the car.


It will be interesting to see if electric car sales grow over time, or
peak and dwindle off, the PT Cruiser curve.

Electricity is cheaper than gasoline, and hybrid cars make more efficient use of gasoline than pure gas-guzzlers. The economics do favour electric cars.

At the moment. It won't take a huge adoption of EVs for the price of gas to plummet with the lowered demand.

This does assume that oil is only used to fuel cars in first world countries.

Not sure what this is saying. The grammar seems to have been mucked by a typo.

Whenever the price of oil declines, the oil-producing countries negotiate reduced production to get it back up again.

Doesn't matter. The reduction will be an ongoing thing and while negotiating as prices are rising is easy, negotiating as prices are falling is not so easy. Mostly this will be driven by pain of lower net profits and hard to make up. Essentially it will keep the oil producing nations in a constant pain for some time.


Oil is a diminishing asset. Oil field run dry. Oil producing nations are "in constant pain" about this - with the possible exception of Norway which dumps the royalties into its sovereign wealth fund.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

Quote:
Likewise with the increase in demand for electricity there will be a need for intelligent control of charging to properly utilize the existing electrical infrastructure rather than building a lot of generation and transmission that aren't required.

100% electric cars in the US would require a 30% increase in the total power generated to keep them charged.

In isolation not a terribly relevant fact.


It's a well known fact - and there was a slightly alarmist article in the Proceedings of the IEEE on the subject a couple of decades ago, which I can still remember reading, but can't be bothered to try and dig out.

Quote:
If the cars mostly got charged overnight, when the existing transmission network is lightly loaded, this shouldn't require any extra transmission capacity (not that the people who build it and charge for it are likely to admit this).

Yeah, there will be the FUD of the power companies negotiating for higher rates, but the bottom line for generation and transmission is that they are now competitive and this may finally pay off for the consumer. We don't pay anyone to build generation or transmission infrastructure... or do we? There is presently a bit of a scandal in South Carolina where the power company and several other outfits botched the construction of a nuke plant. The consumers have been paying higher rates for some time to pay for the construction and it has now failed and will produce no power ever. Dominion (a VA based utility) is buying the SC utility if I am reading the articles correctly and seem to want to push all new costs of this failed plant to the consumers as well. It's something over $1,000 per household. I don't follow why the local power companies get to push any costs to the consumers when generation and transmission are supposed to be separate now.


Think ENRON. Legislators get bribed to do thinks that make money for influential businessmen, who can pay the bribes, and also the lawyers to makes sure that the bribes stay hidden. Trump clearly didn't pay his lawyer enough.

<snip>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

amdx
Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:45 pm   



On 1/5/2019 11:10 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 8:54:27 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 2:54:40 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 01:03:36 -0500, bitrex <user_at_example.net> wrote:

On 01/03/2019 10:23 PM, amdx wrote:
On 1/2/2019 10:47 PM, bitrex wrote:

As of December 19th 2018 the four year grand total of Massachusetts
state EV purchase/lease rebates is (Dec 2014 - Dec 2018)

Tesla: 4,257
Chevrolet: 2,807
Toyota: 1,300
Ford: 806
Nissan: 767
BMW: 600
Honda: 559
Smart: 229
Chrysler: 201
Volkswagen: 200
Mitsubishi: 174
Kia: 163
Volvo: 106
Hyundai: 64
Audi: 58
Mercedes: 45
British Motor Co. :35 (?? Jaguar i-Pace?)
Zero Motors: 20 (electric motorcycles)
Cadillac: 17
Porsche: 13
Victory Motors: 2 (electric motorcycles)

and...

FIAT: 1
^^^^^^
Hahah one person bought an electric FIAT.

 I'm pleasantly surprised that there are that many companies producing
electric cars. Haven't followed close enough to know that.
 Do you have any country wide stats?
                                            Mikek

Probably have to check out the Wikipedias of the various models to get
exact figures for some of them, and some of the small-time players in
the game may not release regular stats. Nationwide Tesla sales should be
easy to come by,

Nationwide Chevy Volt sales will probably top out just under 300k prior
to the model being discontinued in 2019, I've owned two and they're
quite common here in the Boston area, sometimes I can't get a spot at a
four-bay public charger at the train station on weekdays there are
already four other Volts plugged in by 10 AM.

Charger congestion could become a limiting turn-off for electric car
owners. Gas fillups are faster than recharges, but gas stations are
already crowded in many places; the real estate is more valuable as
apartment buildings.

But everybody has electricity in their homes, and their garages. The average car spends 95% of its time parked, and it makes sense to charge it where it's parked, rather than having to make trip to a charging station.

That's a great idea, often expressed as ABC, "Always Be Charging" and can work all the time except when it doesn't. Your support of it is based on a single data point and as we've discussed before this is not enough information to adequately characterize the situation.

There are two big issues, the first of which is travel. Tesla built a Supercharger network to support travel. With an EPA range of 300 miles there needs to be chargers along the highways enough that the range can be properly utilized. There is a location in Quartzsite, AZ with only 8 chargers for many miles. It has become a recurring congestion point. I'm sure Tesla will resolve the issue sometime soon, but with the increased sales from the model 3 this will happen in other locations as well.

The other issue is that many locations simply don't have facilities and there is no money to add them. L2 chargers are all that is needed for long term parking (home and work are the most useful). But many home locations simply don't have facilities to support this and it can be very expensive to add them. Even though they are just 240 volt circuits someone has to pay for the electricity so they need to be connected to the appropriate meter and then run to an appropriate parking space.

For the vast majority of people charging at home will deal with 90% of their needs. This is the charging method that is getting little attention, especially from people like Larkin.


It will be interesting to see if electric car sales grow over time, or
peak and dwindle off, the PT Cruiser curve.

Electricity is cheaper than gasoline, and hybrid cars make more efficient use of gasoline than pure gas-guzzlers. The economics do favour electric cars.

At the moment. It won't take a huge adoption of EVs for the price of gas to plummet with the lowered demand. Likewise with the increase in demand for electricity there will be a need for intelligent control of charging to properly utilize the existing electrical infrastructure rather than building a lot of generation and transmission that aren't required.


Nissan Leaf about 100k nationwide, Prius Prime plug-in about 70k. The
two (discontinued?) Ford plug-in hybrids about 50k. BMW i3 about 30k.

There's a plug-in hybrid Chrysler Pacifica minivan I'd never even heard
of it until I saw one a couple months ago. it's $40,000 but gets very
good reviews. They probably haven't sold much more than 10k of them
nationwide I expect.

Other than the Teslas that (unfairly in my estimation) scooped up many
$2500 checks from the state as a reward for buying a $70,000 car the
majority of rebates did not go to de-luxe car marques and jet-set buyers
it went to Chevrolet, Ford, Toyota and Nissan-buyers, not exactly luxury
marques.

People love to get stuff for free, and might over-spend on a car in
exchange for a smallish government kickback.

A $2,500 kickback isn't a big deal in the price of a car. At the moment buying a electric car is investing more capital now to get lower spending on getting around later. The kickback lowers the pay-off period, but not a lot.

You couldn't be more wrong about that. The idea of getting something for nothing can be a huge incentive. We will be able to see some live data on this now that Tesla's tax credit has been cut in half.

Rick C.

- Get 6 months of free supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Ya, the getting something for free, but many (Americans) don't save
for a rainy day and need help with the down payment, $2,500 helps that.
Mikek

amdx
Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:45 pm   



On 1/6/2019 7:03 AM, bill.sloman_at_ieee.org wrote:
Quote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 9:21:01 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 3:17:20 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 4:11:02 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 8:54:27 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 2:54:40 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 01:03:36 -0500, bitrex <user_at_example.net> wrote:
On 01/03/2019 10:23 PM, amdx wrote:
On 1/2/2019 10:47 PM, bitrex wrote:

snip

Charger congestion could become a limiting turn-off for electric car
owners. Gas fillups are faster than recharges, but gas stations are
already crowded in many places; the real estate is more valuable as
apartment buildings.

But everybody has electricity in their homes, and their garages. The average car spends 95% of its time parked, and it makes sense to charge it where it's parked, rather than having to make trip to a charging station.

That's a great idea, often expressed as ABC, "Always Be Charging" and can work all the time except when it doesn't. Your support of it is based on a single data point and as we've discussed before this is not enough information to adequately characterize the situation.

Which "single data point" would that be?

You don't like the whole idea, but that makes you a single data point.

You know exactly what I am talking about,

You may like to think so, but it's revealing that you didn't identify the "single data point" that you are claiming that you have identified.

but you like to turn to personal attacks when you don't have a valid argument.

There's nothing particularly personal in asking you to identify the "single data point".

Your 95% number seems to be the be-all factoid that justifies so much of your thinking regarding EVs. Unfortunately there is a *lot* of information that single datum hides.

An average is single data point.

The UK average is 96.5%

The Australian figure seems to be 96% - 80% of the time parked at home, 16% of the time parked away from home.

We did discuss how the proportion of cars parked changes during the day, and I dug up a link that showed that proportion didn't drop much below 88% at any time - it may look as if every car in the area is on the road at peak commuting times, but the figures don't seem to support that point of view.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-drivers-are-on-the-road-at-any-given-time-in-the-US

There are two big issues, the first of which is travel. Tesla built a Supercharger network to support travel.

But few people spend much of their driving time "travelling". You seem to be unusual in this respect.

With an EPA range of 300 miles there needs to be chargers along the highways enough that the range can be properly utilized. There is a location in Quartzsite, AZ with only 8 chargers for many miles. It has become a recurring congestion point. I'm sure Tesla will resolve the issue sometime soon, but with the increased sales from the model 3 this will happen in other locations as well.

The other issue is that many locations simply don't have facilities and there is no money to add them. L2 chargers are all that is needed for long term parking (home and work are the most useful). But many home locations simply don't have facilities to support this and it can be very expensive to add them.

For some undefined value of "very expensive". It's just another power point.

One example I know of a person was quoted $8,000 to install a 240 volt outlet by her parking space in the garage of the apartment building in CA. CA has a law that says the apartment owners have to accommodate her needs, but at her expense. They seem to be cooperating with her, but the work involved is not like adding a 20 foot wire and outlet in your garage.

That's exactly the physical work involved. It's easy enough to find ways to charge more on top of this - mechanically robust protection for what otherwise would be an accessible power lead, and an insurance inspection to prove that putting in the wiring is not going to set up any kid of potentially hazardous situation. Lazy apartment owners know how to get out of inconvenient requests.

There are other issues involved in such situations. One that would concern me is vandalism. Because they are new I would expect some percentage of them to be damaged or the cables stolen for the copper inside. But then I'm not an apartment type of person.

The parking area in our garage is not accessible to the public. There are key-operated gates on every entry point. The cars stored there are a lot more valuable than a length of copper cable.


Sounds like you have a wall around that, does it keep people from
entering illegally?


Quote:

$8,000 on top of a $35,000 car is a bit rich for a lot of people.

It isn't going to be the price an average car owner would have to pay.

So charging at fast chargers is a better option for them just like they don't have their own wells or grow their own food.

Scarcely parallel examples. The average garage has a light circuit. Most have power points adequate for regular power tools. Plugging a car charger into such a power point isn't comparable with digging a well.

Even though they are just 240 volt circuits someone has to pay for the electricity so they need to be connected to the appropriate meter and then run to an appropriate parking space.

The current drawn has to be metered - which isn't a big deal - and even parking meters can now recognize regular cash cards.

Yep, some day they will happen. I recall paying $2 an hour to park in Bethesda, MD (a restaurant Mecca). It would be nice to get something for that money. But those meters don't have power.

The local parking meters have enough power to run a cash-card reader. In Canada a parking meter has a low-powered power socket for your car's radiator warmer - and your parking charge pays for that current.


Interesting! Also probably why so many Canadians come to Florida for
the winter. :-)

Quote:

Someone would need to pay for installing chargers at each meter. That's a *lot* of money to cough up even if it makes money in the end. It won't happen overnight and in the mean time there aren't good places to charge in general, other than at the fast chargers or at home if possible.

Parking meters already cost $500-$600 each. Smart meters already need a mains electricity supply and the information link to report and verify credit card transactions, and beefing that up to support domestic charging currents isn't going to make much difference to the price - which is mostly digging the holes and filling them in afterwards.

https://www.concordma.gov/DocumentCenter/View/1495/Concord-Technology-Memo-PDF

For the vast majority of people charging at home will deal with 90% of their needs. This is the charging method that is getting little attention, especially from people like Larkin.

John Larkin gets his thinking from denialist web sites, which are set up by people who want to keeping making money out of selling gasoline.

I know. He seems to have a particular bug up his ass about EVs. Even if there were no environmental advantage to them at all (which some people will claim) they are pretty awesome vehicles in their own right. One of their greatest advantages is the acceleration. Merging into traffic is a breeze. While on the entrance ramp at 30 I can literally punch the accelerator as a car is going by and my speed is matched in two seconds as I merge in behind. In fact, I have to be very careful to not overdo it and end up beside the other car. lol

The quiet is amazing too. No roar of the engine. I can actually listen to music and enjoy it almost like being in my living room! Better actually as my stereo is rather old and not as good as the sound system in the car.


It will be interesting to see if electric car sales grow over time, or
peak and dwindle off, the PT Cruiser curve.

Electricity is cheaper than gasoline, and hybrid cars make more efficient use of gasoline than pure gas-guzzlers. The economics do favour electric cars.

At the moment. It won't take a huge adoption of EVs for the price of gas to plummet with the lowered demand.

This does assume that oil is only used to fuel cars in first world countries.

Not sure what this is saying. The grammar seems to have been mucked by a typo.

Whenever the price of oil declines, the oil-producing countries negotiate reduced production to get it back up again.

Doesn't matter. The reduction will be an ongoing thing and while negotiating as prices are rising is easy, negotiating as prices are falling is not so easy. Mostly this will be driven by pain of lower net profits and hard to make up. Essentially it will keep the oil producing nations in a constant pain for some time.

Oil is a diminishing asset.


it will be.

Oil field run dry.

When the price is too low to support the cost of new production, there
will still be oil, just not economic to retrieve.

Oil producing nations are "in constant pain" about this - with the
possible exception of Norway which dumps the royalties into its
sovereign wealth fund.

Yes, at some point it will every country for themselves, cartels fall
apart.

Mikek

bitrex
Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:45 pm   



On 01/06/2019 09:04 AM, amdx wrote:

Quote:
A $2,500 kickback isn't a big deal in the price of a car. At the
moment buying a electric car is investing more capital now to get
lower spending on getting around later. The kickback lowers the
pay-off period, but not a lot.

You couldn't be more wrong about that.  The idea of getting something
for nothing can be a huge incentive.  We will be able to see some live
data on this now that Tesla's tax credit has been cut in half.

   Rick C.

   - Get 6 months of free supercharging
   - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


 Ya, the getting something for free, but many (Americans) don't save
for a rainy day and need help with the down payment, $2,500 helps that.
                                              Mikek


Or don't have the best credit. Lower priced EVs are IMO one of the few
classes of vehicle it might make financial sense to lease but you want
to avoid plonking money into a lease down payment for a number of reasons.

My credit's quite good I pocketed most of that, I'd never pay anything
near $2500 on a lease down payment on a ~30k car, around 1k would be my
max or I'd go somewhere else. It pays for three years of excise tax
which because it's MA is rather high.


Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:45 pm   



On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 8:03:56 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
Quote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 9:21:01 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 3:17:20 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 4:11:02 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 8:54:27 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 2:54:40 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 01:03:36 -0500, bitrex <user_at_example.net> wrote:
On 01/03/2019 10:23 PM, amdx wrote:
On 1/2/2019 10:47 PM, bitrex wrote:

snip

Charger congestion could become a limiting turn-off for electric car
owners. Gas fillups are faster than recharges, but gas stations are
already crowded in many places; the real estate is more valuable as
apartment buildings.

But everybody has electricity in their homes, and their garages. The average car spends 95% of its time parked, and it makes sense to charge it where it's parked, rather than having to make trip to a charging station.

That's a great idea, often expressed as ABC, "Always Be Charging" and can work all the time except when it doesn't. Your support of it is based on a single data point and as we've discussed before this is not enough information to adequately characterize the situation.

Which "single data point" would that be?

You don't like the whole idea, but that makes you a single data point..

You know exactly what I am talking about,

You may like to think so, but it's revealing that you didn't identify the "single data point" that you are claiming that you have identified.

but you like to turn to personal attacks when you don't have a valid argument.

There's nothing particularly personal in asking you to identify the "single data point".

Your 95% number seems to be the be-all factoid that justifies so much of your thinking regarding EVs. Unfortunately there is a *lot* of information that single datum hides.

An average is single data point.


Ah, so you do know the single data point in question.


Quote:
The UK average is 96.5%

The Australian figure seems to be 96% - 80% of the time parked at home, 16% of the time parked away from home.

We did discuss how the proportion of cars parked changes during the day, and I dug up a link that showed that proportion didn't drop much below 88% at any time - it may look as if every car in the area is on the road at peak commuting times, but the figures don't seem to support that point of view..


And none of that is relevant because the car is not useful at a single point in time. It is only useful when used to store energy to be released at another time. If the car is in transit at the time its energy is needed, it can't be used. Energy needs to be drawn at peak usage times. This is exactly when the availability drops to the minimum for commuting cars.

BTW, what does "not much below 88%" mean? Does that mean 87%? 85%? 80%, 50%?

The devil is in the details.


> https://www.quora.com/How-many-drivers-are-on-the-road-at-any-given-time-in-the-US

You didn't really read this link did you? It doesn't say what you think it says or at least not what you are claiming.


Quote:
There are two big issues, the first of which is travel. Tesla built a Supercharger network to support travel.

But few people spend much of their driving time "travelling". You seem to be unusual in this respect.


Not at all relevant. Nearly everyone takes trips that will require refueling along the way, even if only on the return trip. So they care about recharging on route.


Quote:
With an EPA range of 300 miles there needs to be chargers along the highways enough that the range can be properly utilized. There is a location in Quartzsite, AZ with only 8 chargers for many miles. It has become a recurring congestion point. I'm sure Tesla will resolve the issue sometime soon, but with the increased sales from the model 3 this will happen in other locations as well.

The other issue is that many locations simply don't have facilities and there is no money to add them. L2 chargers are all that is needed for long term parking (home and work are the most useful). But many home locations simply don't have facilities to support this and it can be very expensive to add them.

For some undefined value of "very expensive". It's just another power point.

One example I know of a person was quoted $8,000 to install a 240 volt outlet by her parking space in the garage of the apartment building in CA. CA has a law that says the apartment owners have to accommodate her needs, but at her expense. They seem to be cooperating with her, but the work involved is not like adding a 20 foot wire and outlet in your garage.

That's exactly the physical work involved. It's easy enough to find ways to charge more on top of this - mechanically robust protection for what otherwise would be an accessible power lead, and an insurance inspection to prove that putting in the wiring is not going to set up any kid of potentially hazardous situation. Lazy apartment owners know how to get out of inconvenient requests.


Not sure what your point is.


Quote:
There are other issues involved in such situations. One that would concern me is vandalism. Because they are new I would expect some percentage of them to be damaged or the cables stolen for the copper inside. But then I'm not an apartment type of person.

The parking area in our garage is not accessible to the public. There are key-operated gates on every entry point. The cars stored there are a lot more valuable than a length of copper cable.


Your point? Kids don't see a car as a "new" thing. There is also not much they can steal for money. I know of people stealing copper for the monetary value and I know of chargers that have been vandalized.


Quote:
$8,000 on top of a $35,000 car is a bit rich for a lot of people.

It isn't going to be the price an average car owner would have to pay.


No, exactly, it can't be averaged. It would need to be paid by the individual who lives in the apartment. There are lots of those.


Quote:
So charging at fast chargers is a better option for them just like they don't have their own wells or grow their own food.

Scarcely parallel examples. The average garage has a light circuit. Most have power points adequate for regular power tools. Plugging a car charger into such a power point isn't comparable with digging a well.


You seem to be smoking dope on this one. I've already explained it to you. Go back and read why you are off target here.


Quote:
Even though they are just 240 volt circuits someone has to pay for the electricity so they need to be connected to the appropriate meter and then run to an appropriate parking space.

The current drawn has to be metered - which isn't a big deal - and even parking meters can now recognise regular cash cards.

Yep, some day they will happen. I recall paying $2 an hour to park in Bethesda, MD (a restaurant Mecca). It would be nice to get something for that money. But those meters don't have power.

The local parking meters have enough power to run a cash-card reader. In Canada a parking meter has a low-powered power socket for your car's radiator warmer - and your parking charge pays for that current.


So the problem is solved for Canadian cars parked at public parking meters.... after they've increased the power capability ten fold or more.


Quote:
Someone would need to pay for installing chargers at each meter. That's a *lot* of money to cough up even if it makes money in the end. It won't happen overnight and in the mean time there aren't good places to charge in general, other than at the fast chargers or at home if possible.

Parking meters already cost $500-$600 each. Smart meters already need a mains electricity supply and the information link to report and verify credit card transactions, and beefing that up to support domestic charging currents isn't going to make much difference to the price - which is mostly digging the holes and filling them in afterwards.

https://www.concordma.gov/DocumentCenter/View/1495/Concord-Technology-Memo-PDF


I don't know that all parking meters have power lines to them rather than just having batteries. But more importantly is the widespread adoption of multi-space meters where you walk to a kiosk to buy a parking permit. Then you would need an extension cord half a block long. They would be stolen.


Quote:
For the vast majority of people charging at home will deal with 90% of their needs. This is the charging method that is getting little attention, especially from people like Larkin.

John Larkin gets his thinking from denialist web sites, which are set up by people who want to keeping making money out of selling gasoline.

I know. He seems to have a particular bug up his ass about EVs. Even if there were no environmental advantage to them at all (which some people will claim) they are pretty awesome vehicles in their own right. One of their greatest advantages is the acceleration. Merging into traffic is a breeze. While on the entrance ramp at 30 I can literally punch the accelerator as a car is going by and my speed is matched in two seconds as I merge in behind. In fact, I have to be very careful to not overdo it and end up beside the other car. lol

The quiet is amazing too. No roar of the engine. I can actually listen to music and enjoy it almost like being in my living room! Better actually as my stereo is rather old and not as good as the sound system in the car.


It will be interesting to see if electric car sales grow over time, or
peak and dwindle off, the PT Cruiser curve.

Electricity is cheaper than gasoline, and hybrid cars make more efficient use of gasoline than pure gas-guzzlers. The economics do favour electric cars.

At the moment. It won't take a huge adoption of EVs for the price of gas to plummet with the lowered demand.

This does assume that oil is only used to fuel cars in first world countries.

Not sure what this is saying. The grammar seems to have been mucked by a typo.

Whenever the price of oil declines, the oil-producing countries negotiate reduced production to get it back up again.

Doesn't matter. The reduction will be an ongoing thing and while negotiating as prices are rising is easy, negotiating as prices are falling is not so easy. Mostly this will be driven by pain of lower net profits and hard to make up. Essentially it will keep the oil producing nations in a constant pain for some time.

Oil is a diminishing asset. Oil field run dry. Oil producing nations are "in constant pain" about this - with the possible exception of Norway which dumps the royalties into its sovereign wealth fund.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway


Lol, like Liberace, they cry all the way to the bank!


Quote:
Likewise with the increase in demand for electricity there will be a need for intelligent control of charging to properly utilize the existing electrical infrastructure rather than building a lot of generation and transmission that aren't required.

100% electric cars in the US would require a 30% increase in the total power generated to keep them charged.

In isolation not a terribly relevant fact.

It's a well known fact - and there was a slightly alarmist article in the Proceedings of the IEEE on the subject a couple of decades ago, which I can still remember reading, but can't be bothered to try and dig out.


That doesn't address the fact that an increase in demand does not automatically require an increase in capacity when there is so much unused capacity.


Quote:
If the cars mostly got charged overnight, when the existing transmission network is lightly loaded, this shouldn't require any extra transmission capacity (not that the people who build it and charge for it are likely to admit this).

Yeah, there will be the FUD of the power companies negotiating for higher rates, but the bottom line for generation and transmission is that they are now competitive and this may finally pay off for the consumer. We don't pay anyone to build generation or transmission infrastructure... or do we? There is presently a bit of a scandal in South Carolina where the power company and several other outfits botched the construction of a nuke plant. The consumers have been paying higher rates for some time to pay for the construction and it has now failed and will produce no power ever. Dominion (a VA based utility) is buying the SC utility if I am reading the articles correctly and seem to want to push all new costs of this failed plant to the consumers as well. It's something over $1,000 per household. I don't follow why the local power companies get to push any costs to the consumers when generation and transmission are supposed to be separate now.

Think ENRON. Legislators get bribed to do thinks that make money for influential businessmen, who can pay the bribes, and also the lawyers to makes sure that the bribes stay hidden. Trump clearly didn't pay his lawyer enough.


Absolutely. I have no doubt the utilities will cry and moan in a few years as EVs start to take off. That's why is would be useful to contact legislators to act now to require the power companies to mitigate the problem before it becomes a "crisis".

Rick C.

+- Get 6 months of free supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

bitrex
Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:45 pm   



On 01/05/2019 10:54 AM, John Larkin wrote:
Quote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 01:03:36 -0500, bitrex <user_at_example.net> wrote:

On 01/03/2019 10:23 PM, amdx wrote:
On 1/2/2019 10:47 PM, bitrex wrote:

As of December 19th 2018 the four year grand total of Massachusetts
state EV purchase/lease rebates is (Dec 2014 - Dec 2018)

Tesla: 4,257
Chevrolet: 2,807
Toyota: 1,300
Ford: 806
Nissan: 767
BMW: 600
Honda: 559
Smart: 229
Chrysler: 201
Volkswagen: 200
Mitsubishi: 174
Kia: 163
Volvo: 106
Hyundai: 64
Audi: 58
Mercedes: 45
British Motor Co. :35 (?? Jaguar i-Pace?)
Zero Motors: 20 (electric motorcycles)
Cadillac: 17
Porsche: 13
Victory Motors: 2 (electric motorcycles)

and...

FIAT: 1
^^^^^^
Hahah one person bought an electric FIAT.

 I'm pleasantly surprised that there are that many companies producing
electric cars. Haven't followed close enough to know that.
 Do you have any country wide stats?
                                            Mikek

Probably have to check out the Wikipedias of the various models to get
exact figures for some of them, and some of the small-time players in
the game may not release regular stats. Nationwide Tesla sales should be
easy to come by,

Nationwide Chevy Volt sales will probably top out just under 300k prior
to the model being discontinued in 2019, I've owned two and they're
quite common here in the Boston area, sometimes I can't get a spot at a
four-bay public charger at the train station on weekdays there are
already four other Volts plugged in by 10 AM.

Charger congestion could become a limiting turn-off for electric car
owners. Gas fillups are faster than recharges, but gas stations are
already crowded in many places; the real estate is more valuable as
apartment buildings.

It will be interesting to see if electric car sales grow over time, or
peak and dwindle off, the PT Cruiser curve.


The PT Crusier didn't offer anything novel other than its styling. Under
its retro-dress it was a Dodge Neon. A Dodge Neon in a dress.

Quote:
Nissan Leaf about 100k nationwide, Prius Prime plug-in about 70k. The
two (discontinued?) Ford plug-in hybrids about 50k. BMW i3 about 30k.

There's a plug-in hybrid Chrysler Pacifica minivan I'd never even heard
of it until I saw one a couple months ago. it's $40,000 but gets very
good reviews. They probably haven't sold much more than 10k of them
nationwide I expect.

Other than the Teslas that (unfairly in my estimation) scooped up many
$2500 checks from the state as a reward for buying a $70,000 car the
majority of rebates did not go to de-luxe car marques and jet-set buyers
it went to Chevrolet, Ford, Toyota and Nissan-buyers, not exactly luxury
marques.



People love to get stuff for free, and might over-spend on a car in
exchange for a smallish government kickback.


Americans tend to over-spend on their vehicles, period. A base trim
regular cab/long box 2WD F-150 is just shy of 30 grand, new, a fine work
truck. Almost nobody buys those they get the F-150 with 4x4 and the crew
cab and the bling options that quickly push the price tag out to 45k and
beyond.

They end up on the used market in a few years at very attractive prices
compared to what they sold for new


Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:45 pm   



On Sunday, 6 January 2019 17:30:58 UTC, bitrex wrote:

> Americans tend to over-spend on their vehicles, period.

Hugely. The resulting value for money is lousy.


NT

John Larkin
Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:45 pm   



On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 12:30:52 -0500, bitrex <user_at_example.net> wrote:

Quote:
On 01/05/2019 10:54 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 01:03:36 -0500, bitrex <user_at_example.net> wrote:

On 01/03/2019 10:23 PM, amdx wrote:
On 1/2/2019 10:47 PM, bitrex wrote:

As of December 19th 2018 the four year grand total of Massachusetts
state EV purchase/lease rebates is (Dec 2014 - Dec 2018)

Tesla: 4,257
Chevrolet: 2,807
Toyota: 1,300
Ford: 806
Nissan: 767
BMW: 600
Honda: 559
Smart: 229
Chrysler: 201
Volkswagen: 200
Mitsubishi: 174
Kia: 163
Volvo: 106
Hyundai: 64
Audi: 58
Mercedes: 45
British Motor Co. :35 (?? Jaguar i-Pace?)
Zero Motors: 20 (electric motorcycles)
Cadillac: 17
Porsche: 13
Victory Motors: 2 (electric motorcycles)

and...

FIAT: 1
^^^^^^
Hahah one person bought an electric FIAT.

I'm pleasantly surprised that there are that many companies producing
electric cars. Haven't followed close enough to know that.
Do you have any country wide stats?
Mikek

Probably have to check out the Wikipedias of the various models to get
exact figures for some of them, and some of the small-time players in
the game may not release regular stats. Nationwide Tesla sales should be
easy to come by,

Nationwide Chevy Volt sales will probably top out just under 300k prior
to the model being discontinued in 2019, I've owned two and they're
quite common here in the Boston area, sometimes I can't get a spot at a
four-bay public charger at the train station on weekdays there are
already four other Volts plugged in by 10 AM.

Charger congestion could become a limiting turn-off for electric car
owners. Gas fillups are faster than recharges, but gas stations are
already crowded in many places; the real estate is more valuable as
apartment buildings.

It will be interesting to see if electric car sales grow over time, or
peak and dwindle off, the PT Cruiser curve.


The PT Crusier didn't offer anything novel other than its styling. Under
its retro-dress it was a Dodge Neon. A Dodge Neon in a dress.


Like most agressively ugly vehicles, it had a cult audience. But cult
audiences are eventually saturated. Eventually everybody who wants one
has one.

It will be interesting to see if electrics are fads among enthusiasts,
or have genuine broad appeal. Currently, the electric buyers are
mostly virtue-signalling greenies or enthusiasts who enjoy calculating
ranges and charge times and such.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

bitrex
Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:45 pm   



On 01/06/2019 01:43 PM, tabbypurr_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Sunday, 6 January 2019 17:30:58 UTC, bitrex wrote:

Americans tend to over-spend on their vehicles, period.

Hugely. The resulting value for money is lousy.


NT


Not in small part because of duplicitous/high-pressure sales tactics,
the unprepared car buyer tends to leave with more car than they planned
on shelling out for.

Cars are one of the few consumer goods that it's still customary to
haggle over, even at a reputable major dealer with numerous good reviews.

I didn't get a good offer on my first or second try at closing a deal on
my Volt. It took the better part of three hours of back and forth in a
sales office, pulling out my calculator and pen and paper and running
numbers on the spot to "frighten" them ("I'm rather good with
figures..."), making phone calls ("Excuse me a sec...") and generalized
arm-twisting to Donald Trump them into submission on a price I wanted to
pay.

I kinda enjoy doing that every once in a while, the sales rep and I
shake hands after it's over and no hard feelings it's just business.
Their usual tactics don't intimidate me at all. Not everyone is that
way, though.


Guest

Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:45 am   



On Sunday, 6 January 2019 22:58:59 UTC, bitrex wrote:
Quote:
On 01/06/2019 05:50 PM, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 6 January 2019 22:39:24 UTC, bitrex wrote:
On 01/06/2019 01:43 PM, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 6 January 2019 17:30:58 UTC, bitrex wrote:

Americans tend to over-spend on their vehicles, period.

Hugely. The resulting value for money is lousy.


NT


Not in small part because of duplicitous/high-pressure sales tactics,
the unprepared car buyer tends to leave with more car than they planned
on shelling out for.

Cars are one of the few consumer goods that it's still customary to
haggle over, even at a reputable major dealer with numerous good reviews.

I didn't get a good offer on my first or second try at closing a deal on
my Volt. It took the better part of three hours of back and forth in a
sales office, pulling out my calculator and pen and paper and running
numbers on the spot to "frighten" them ("I'm rather good with
figures..."), making phone calls ("Excuse me a sec...") and generalized
arm-twisting to Donald Trump them into submission on a price I wanted to
pay.

I kinda enjoy doing that every once in a while, the sales rep and I
shake hands after it's over and no hard feelings it's just business.
Their usual tactics don't intimidate me at all. Not everyone is that
way, though.

That applies here too. US cars are just stupidly overpowered, overweight & overpriced.

Well... with one exception Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6YCP5aqk9g


NT


It sounds like it has a lawnmower engine.


2 cylinder 18 horses. Wasted spark, not even a distributor.

Quote:
My first car was a used 1989
Chevrolet Celebrity with the base-trim engine, a single-point injection
"Iron Duke" four

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Duke_engine

It's the same engine used in the Grumman LLV mail trucks still in common
use here in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV

It probably made about 100 hp on a good day. Best I can say for that
car's performance is "unremarkable."


Who needs remarkable?


NT


Guest

Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:45 am   



On Sunday, 6 January 2019 22:39:24 UTC, bitrex wrote:
Quote:
On 01/06/2019 01:43 PM, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 6 January 2019 17:30:58 UTC, bitrex wrote:

Americans tend to over-spend on their vehicles, period.

Hugely. The resulting value for money is lousy.


NT


Not in small part because of duplicitous/high-pressure sales tactics,
the unprepared car buyer tends to leave with more car than they planned
on shelling out for.

Cars are one of the few consumer goods that it's still customary to
haggle over, even at a reputable major dealer with numerous good reviews.

I didn't get a good offer on my first or second try at closing a deal on
my Volt. It took the better part of three hours of back and forth in a
sales office, pulling out my calculator and pen and paper and running
numbers on the spot to "frighten" them ("I'm rather good with
figures..."), making phone calls ("Excuse me a sec...") and generalized
arm-twisting to Donald Trump them into submission on a price I wanted to
pay.

I kinda enjoy doing that every once in a while, the sales rep and I
shake hands after it's over and no hard feelings it's just business.
Their usual tactics don't intimidate me at all. Not everyone is that
way, though.


That applies here too. US cars are just stupidly overpowered, overweight & overpriced.

Well... with one exception Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6YCP5aqk9g


NT

bitrex
Guest

Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:45 am   



On 01/06/2019 02:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 12:30:52 -0500, bitrex <user_at_example.net> wrote:

On 01/05/2019 10:54 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 01:03:36 -0500, bitrex <user_at_example.net> wrote:

On 01/03/2019 10:23 PM, amdx wrote:
On 1/2/2019 10:47 PM, bitrex wrote:

As of December 19th 2018 the four year grand total of Massachusetts
state EV purchase/lease rebates is (Dec 2014 - Dec 2018)

Tesla: 4,257
Chevrolet: 2,807
Toyota: 1,300
Ford: 806
Nissan: 767
BMW: 600
Honda: 559
Smart: 229
Chrysler: 201
Volkswagen: 200
Mitsubishi: 174
Kia: 163
Volvo: 106
Hyundai: 64
Audi: 58
Mercedes: 45
British Motor Co. :35 (?? Jaguar i-Pace?)
Zero Motors: 20 (electric motorcycles)
Cadillac: 17
Porsche: 13
Victory Motors: 2 (electric motorcycles)

and...

FIAT: 1
^^^^^^
Hahah one person bought an electric FIAT.

 I'm pleasantly surprised that there are that many companies producing
electric cars. Haven't followed close enough to know that.
 Do you have any country wide stats?
                                            Mikek

Probably have to check out the Wikipedias of the various models to get
exact figures for some of them, and some of the small-time players in
the game may not release regular stats. Nationwide Tesla sales should be
easy to come by,

Nationwide Chevy Volt sales will probably top out just under 300k prior
to the model being discontinued in 2019, I've owned two and they're
quite common here in the Boston area, sometimes I can't get a spot at a
four-bay public charger at the train station on weekdays there are
already four other Volts plugged in by 10 AM.

Charger congestion could become a limiting turn-off for electric car
owners. Gas fillups are faster than recharges, but gas stations are
already crowded in many places; the real estate is more valuable as
apartment buildings.

It will be interesting to see if electric car sales grow over time, or
peak and dwindle off, the PT Cruiser curve.


The PT Crusier didn't offer anything novel other than its styling. Under
its retro-dress it was a Dodge Neon. A Dodge Neon in a dress.

Like most agressively ugly vehicles, it had a cult audience. But cult
audiences are eventually saturated. Eventually everybody who wants one
has one.


<https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/03/jeep-wranglers-just-set-an-all-time-sales-record.html>

Wonder if Americans will ever get tired of the Wrangler, speaking of
aggressively ugly, unreliable vehicles! Sucks as a car, and there are
much more capable off-road vehicles. 95% won't ever see dirt. Sold on
emotion.

Quote:
It will be interesting to see if electrics are fads among enthusiasts,
or have genuine broad appeal. Currently, the electric buyers are
mostly virtue-signalling greenies or enthusiasts who enjoy calculating
ranges and charge times and such.


GM could've sold twice as many Volts if they'd given it the marketing
push it deserved. I think part of the problem was they'd been selling
cars on emotion/style for so long the marketing department forgot how to
sell to consumers on facts and raw data, say 1950-style. "Here's a car.
Here's why it's different, here's what it does, here's how owning it
could save you money." I don't think they know how anymore

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