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FMurtz
Guest

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:24 pm   



Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

Dunno.

But one thing is certain, once the number of electric cars starts to
impact on petrol sales, governments will be looking to tax them so as to
recover the lost duty and gst revenue.

Sylvia.


I hesitate to put URLs like this Because if they do not agree with
Trevor's take the articles are bullshit.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/how-many-teslas-does-it-take-to-black-out-an-apartment-block-13934/

Trevor Wilson
Guest

Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:25 pm   



On 13/09/2017 11:17 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Quote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 7:02 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 3:09 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:38 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

**They're already here. Tesla is tight-lipped on sales data, but
sell
approximately 1,000 cars per year. Let's say Tesla have sold 1,000
cars
into Sydney, as Sydney is a significant portion of EV sales.

Then there's the others:

Nissan Leaf - 635 cars sold. Let's say, 200 are in Sydney.
Audi A3 e-tron - 128 cars sold. Let's say, 40 in Sydney.
Mitsubishi PHEV - 1,665 cars sold. Let's say, 550 in Sydney.
There are others, but figures are tiny.

So, there are at least 1,200 pure EVs in Sydney and probably a
similar
number in Melbourne. There are more PHEVs as well. Many are most
likely
operated solely on electricity.

Your point is?

Up to 40 amps for maybe 10 hours a day

**Yes. And your point is? I just showed that there are more than
1,200
pure EVs (and quite a few PHEVs) in Sydney and probably Melbourne
right
now. Every time I drive around Sydney, I see at least one Tesla and
frequently 2 or 3. There are more coming.
we could handle a few

most EVs take a lot less than teslas and if there was a thousand
teslas in sydney itself and similar amounts in other suburbs it would
cost AGL a fortune

**I'll say it again: THERE ALREADY ARE MORE THAN 1,200 EVs IN SYDNEY,
RIGHT NOW!


**I'll say it again: TESLAs



**And I will say again: There are AT LEAST 1,000 Teslas in Sydney right
now.

So of the 1200 pure ev cars that you say are in Sydney, 1000 of them are
TESLAs ?


**That is my best guess, since Tesla don't provide full sales data.

Quote:

When the Model 3 arrives, you can expect that figure to increase
significantly.



On another tack if every car was electric and huge advances were not
made in electric supply would that work, there are already parts of
the UK that recon they will mandate all electric in the not too
distant future, that will be fun.

**Can you suggest another alternative? Unless people in Australia's
large cities switch to public transport in droves, then we are all in
for a great deal of trouble. EVs can mitigate some of the problem.


If all cars were electric they would probably have to figure out how
to tax highly the electricity used to charge them while not the
existing system ( maybe distance based rego?)and what to do with the
collapse of the existing fuel supply system

**You're thinking vertically. Every car will have a system that
communicates with the relevant authority and will be charged by distance
travelled on most roads. The existing fuel supply system won't collapse
overnight.






--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Trevor Wilson
Guest

Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:31 pm   



On 13/09/2017 11:24 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Quote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

Dunno.

But one thing is certain, once the number of electric cars starts to
impact on petrol sales, governments will be looking to tax them so as to
recover the lost duty and gst revenue.

Sylvia.

I hesitate to put URLs like this Because if they do not agree with
Trevor's take the articles are bullshit.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/how-many-teslas-does-it-take-to-black-out-an-apartment-block-13934/


**You stupid lying cunt. I just explained that there are already more
than 1,000 EVs in an Australian city (Sydney). I made no other claims.

Will lots of EVs cause problems in Sydney?

Possibly. If nothing changes.

However, there is another way to view the situation:

Part of the present problem with electricity generation in Australia is
that the electricity generation industry is in a 'death spiral'. People
are using less power, because electricity costs more and appliances are
more efficient. Because less power is being used, power companies have
to raise prices to maintain profitability. A large increase in EVs will
increase electricity demand and require that power companies deliver
more power, thus increasing their profitability.

So, rather than being a bad thing, more EVs may be beneficial for
everyone. Particularly since the uptake is so gradual.

Now, what are the further ramifications?

The petrol/oil industry will likely enter it's 'death spiral' as more
people switch over to EVs and H2 powered vehicles.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

keithr0
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:23 am   



On 9/13/2017 9:03 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Quote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor_at_spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 12/09/2017 7:02 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 3:09 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:38 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

**They're already here. Tesla is tight-lipped on sales data, but sell
approximately 1,000 cars per year. Let's say Tesla have sold 1,000
cars
into Sydney, as Sydney is a significant portion of EV sales.

Then there's the others:

Nissan Leaf - 635 cars sold. Let's say, 200 are in Sydney.
Audi A3 e-tron - 128 cars sold. Let's say, 40 in Sydney.
Mitsubishi PHEV - 1,665 cars sold. Let's say, 550 in Sydney.
There are others, but figures are tiny.

So, there are at least 1,200 pure EVs in Sydney and probably a
similar
number in Melbourne. There are more PHEVs as well. Many are most
likely
operated solely on electricity.

Your point is?

Up to 40 amps for maybe 10 hours a day

**Yes. And your point is? I just showed that there are more than 1,200
pure EVs (and quite a few PHEVs) in Sydney and probably Melbourne right
now. Every time I drive around Sydney, I see at least one Tesla and
frequently 2 or 3. There are more coming.
we could handle a few

most EVs take a lot less than teslas and if there was a thousand
teslas in sydney itself and similar amounts in other suburbs it would
cost AGL a fortune

**I'll say it again: THERE ALREADY ARE MORE THAN 1,200 EVs IN SYDNEY,
RIGHT NOW!


**I'll say it again: TESLAs

**And I will say again: There are AT LEAST 1,000 Teslas in Sydney right
now. When the Model 3 arrives, you can expect that figure to increase
significantly.

Which will make AGL very happy when they decide to raise their prices
again.

On another tack if every car was electric and huge advances were not
made in electric supply would that work, there are already parts of
the UK that recon they will mandate all electric in the not too
distant future, that will be fun.

**Can you suggest another alternative? Unless people in Australia's
large cities switch to public transport in droves, then we are all in
for a great deal of trouble. EVs can mitigate some of the problem.


If all cars were electric they would probably have to figure out how to
tax highly the electricity used to charge them while not the existing
system ( maybe distance based rego?)and what to do with the collapse of
the existing fuel supply system

**You're thinking vertically. Every car will have a system that
communicates with the relevant authority and will be charged by distance
travelled on most roads.

I hope not, I don't want my car spying on me (though I'm probably one of
the very few who usually don't have another device spying on them at the
same time anyway).

It seems to me that AGL have solved the government's problem for them in
this regard. Their new $1/day rate is charged on a specific electric car
outlet of a special power meter which has to be installed in order to
access the deal. The government just has to bill AGL, and all those who
copy them, for a percentage of what their meters charge and the system
is back to normal again.

The existing fuel supply system won't collapse overnight.

Yep, for as long as our civilisation keeps itself together I doubt that
it will ever become impossible for people like us to buy fuel, but at
some point soon it probably won't make sense to keep using it for
personal everyday transport.

Mazda have a different view of things


http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/mazda-s-inconvenient-truth-65066.html?trackLink=articleResults10

Trevor Wilson
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:48 am   



On 13/09/2017 9:03 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Quote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor_at_spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 12/09/2017 7:02 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 3:09 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:38 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

**They're already here. Tesla is tight-lipped on sales data, but sell
approximately 1,000 cars per year. Let's say Tesla have sold 1,000
cars
into Sydney, as Sydney is a significant portion of EV sales.

Then there's the others:

Nissan Leaf - 635 cars sold. Let's say, 200 are in Sydney.
Audi A3 e-tron - 128 cars sold. Let's say, 40 in Sydney.
Mitsubishi PHEV - 1,665 cars sold. Let's say, 550 in Sydney.
There are others, but figures are tiny.

So, there are at least 1,200 pure EVs in Sydney and probably a
similar
number in Melbourne. There are more PHEVs as well. Many are most
likely
operated solely on electricity.

Your point is?

Up to 40 amps for maybe 10 hours a day

**Yes. And your point is? I just showed that there are more than 1,200
pure EVs (and quite a few PHEVs) in Sydney and probably Melbourne right
now. Every time I drive around Sydney, I see at least one Tesla and
frequently 2 or 3. There are more coming.
we could handle a few

most EVs take a lot less than teslas and if there was a thousand
teslas in sydney itself and similar amounts in other suburbs it would
cost AGL a fortune

**I'll say it again: THERE ALREADY ARE MORE THAN 1,200 EVs IN SYDNEY,
RIGHT NOW!


**I'll say it again: TESLAs

**And I will say again: There are AT LEAST 1,000 Teslas in Sydney right
now. When the Model 3 arrives, you can expect that figure to increase
significantly.

Which will make AGL very happy when they decide to raise their prices
again.


**Perhaps. Perhaps not. Either way, more electricity will need to be
supplied, which may allow power companies to climb out of their death
spiral.

Quote:

On another tack if every car was electric and huge advances were not
made in electric supply would that work, there are already parts of
the UK that recon they will mandate all electric in the not too
distant future, that will be fun.

**Can you suggest another alternative? Unless people in Australia's
large cities switch to public transport in droves, then we are all in
for a great deal of trouble. EVs can mitigate some of the problem.


If all cars were electric they would probably have to figure out how to
tax highly the electricity used to charge them while not the existing
system ( maybe distance based rego?)and what to do with the collapse of
the existing fuel supply system

**You're thinking vertically. Every car will have a system that
communicates with the relevant authority and will be charged by distance
travelled on most roads.

I hope not, I don't want my car spying on me (though I'm probably one of
the very few who usually don't have another device spying on them at the
same time anyway).


**Then you would be one of the very few motorists that doesn't use a
toll tag. That would make driving around any of Australia's major cities
extremely inconvenient.

Quote:

It seems to me that AGL have solved the government's problem for them in
this regard. Their new $1/day rate is charged on a specific electric car
outlet of a special power meter which has to be installed in order to
access the deal. The government just has to bill AGL, and all those who
copy them, for a percentage of what their meters charge and the system
is back to normal again.

The existing fuel supply system won't collapse overnight.

Yep, for as long as our civilisation keeps itself together I doubt that
it will ever become impossible for people like us to buy fuel, but at
some point soon it probably won't make sense to keep using it for
personal everyday transport.


**Keep imagining that. The fact is that oil is going to become a lot
more expensive and H2 and electricity will be cheaper. The oil companies
will be caught in their own death spiral in a few years. Eventually,
petrol/oil will be so expensive that buying an electric or H2 powered
car will be the preferred way for the vast majority.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

~misfit~
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:40 am   



Once upon a time on usenet Trevor Wilson wrote:
Quote:
On 13/09/2017 9:03 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor_at_spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 12/09/2017 7:02 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 3:09 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:38 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

**They're already here. Tesla is tight-lipped on sales data,
but sell approximately 1,000 cars per year. Let's say Tesla
have sold 1,000 cars
into Sydney, as Sydney is a significant portion of EV sales.

Then there's the others:

Nissan Leaf - 635 cars sold. Let's say, 200 are in Sydney.
Audi A3 e-tron - 128 cars sold. Let's say, 40 in Sydney.
Mitsubishi PHEV - 1,665 cars sold. Let's say, 550 in Sydney.
There are others, but figures are tiny.

So, there are at least 1,200 pure EVs in Sydney and probably a
similar
number in Melbourne. There are more PHEVs as well. Many are
most likely
operated solely on electricity.

Your point is?

Up to 40 amps for maybe 10 hours a day

**Yes. And your point is? I just showed that there are more
than 1,200 pure EVs (and quite a few PHEVs) in Sydney and
probably Melbourne right now. Every time I drive around Sydney,
I see at least one Tesla and frequently 2 or 3. There are more
coming.
we could handle a few

most EVs take a lot less than teslas and if there was a thousand
teslas in sydney itself and similar amounts in other suburbs it
would cost AGL a fortune

**I'll say it again: THERE ALREADY ARE MORE THAN 1,200 EVs IN
SYDNEY, RIGHT NOW!


**I'll say it again: TESLAs

**And I will say again: There are AT LEAST 1,000 Teslas in Sydney
right now. When the Model 3 arrives, you can expect that figure to
increase significantly.

Which will make AGL very happy when they decide to raise their prices
again.

**Perhaps. Perhaps not. Either way, more electricity will need to be
supplied, which may allow power companies to climb out of their death
spiral.


On another tack if every car was electric and huge advances were
not made in electric supply would that work, there are already
parts of the UK that recon they will mandate all electric in the
not too distant future, that will be fun.

**Can you suggest another alternative? Unless people in
Australia's large cities switch to public transport in droves,
then we are all in for a great deal of trouble. EVs can mitigate
some of the problem.
If all cars were electric they would probably have to figure out
how to tax highly the electricity used to charge them while not
the existing system ( maybe distance based rego?)and what to do
with the collapse of the existing fuel supply system

**You're thinking vertically. Every car will have a system that
communicates with the relevant authority and will be charged by
distance travelled on most roads.

I hope not, I don't want my car spying on me (though I'm probably
one of the very few who usually don't have another device spying on
them at the same time anyway).

**Then you would be one of the very few motorists that doesn't use a
toll tag. That would make driving around any of Australia's major
cities extremely inconvenient.


It seems to me that AGL have solved the government's problem for
them in this regard. Their new $1/day rate is charged on a specific
electric car outlet of a special power meter which has to be
installed in order to access the deal. The government just has to
bill AGL, and all those who copy them, for a percentage of what
their meters charge and the system is back to normal again.

The existing fuel supply system won't collapse overnight.

Yep, for as long as our civilisation keeps itself together I doubt
that it will ever become impossible for people like us to buy fuel,
but at some point soon it probably won't make sense to keep using it
for personal everyday transport.

**Keep imagining that. The fact is that oil is going to become a lot
more expensive and H2 and electricity will be cheaper. The oil
companies will be caught in their own death spiral in a few years.
Eventually, petrol/oil will be so expensive that buying an electric
or H2 powered car will be the preferred way for the vast majority.


What about agricultural and earthmoving machinery? Ocean-going ships and
airliners? Will they all go electric too? If not what will happen to the
petrol fraction of the oil that is left over when oil is refined for thier
use? (After all Carl Benz chose petrol to power his original ICE because it
was so very cheap as there was little use for it back then.)

https://youtu.be/jntsT0BdxDw?t=8m08s

The whole video is well worth a watch - and the channel a subscribe.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

FMurtz
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:53 am   



Trevor Wilson wrote:
Quote:
On 13/09/2017 11:17 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 7:02 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 3:09 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:38 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

**They're already here. Tesla is tight-lipped on sales data, but
sell
approximately 1,000 cars per year. Let's say Tesla have sold 1,000
cars
into Sydney, as Sydney is a significant portion of EV sales.

Then there's the others:

Nissan Leaf - 635 cars sold. Let's say, 200 are in Sydney.
Audi A3 e-tron - 128 cars sold. Let's say, 40 in Sydney.
Mitsubishi PHEV - 1,665 cars sold. Let's say, 550 in Sydney.
There are others, but figures are tiny.

So, there are at least 1,200 pure EVs in Sydney and probably a
similar
number in Melbourne. There are more PHEVs as well. Many are most
likely
operated solely on electricity.

Your point is?

Up to 40 amps for maybe 10 hours a day

**Yes. And your point is? I just showed that there are more than
1,200
pure EVs (and quite a few PHEVs) in Sydney and probably Melbourne
right
now. Every time I drive around Sydney, I see at least one Tesla and
frequently 2 or 3. There are more coming.
we could handle a few

most EVs take a lot less than teslas and if there was a thousand
teslas in sydney itself and similar amounts in other suburbs it would
cost AGL a fortune

**I'll say it again: THERE ALREADY ARE MORE THAN 1,200 EVs IN SYDNEY,
RIGHT NOW!


**I'll say it again: TESLAs



**And I will say again: There are AT LEAST 1,000 Teslas in Sydney right
now.

So of the 1200 pure ev cars that you say are in Sydney, 1000 of them
are TESLAs ?

**That is my best guess, since Tesla don't provide full sales data.


Someone elses best guess in 2016 and as sales are dropping I doubt many
more,
There are at least 583 Model S Teslas on Australian roads, a car that
starts at around $123,000 (the base model was about $95,000 at launch,
but the price is based on the US dollar and thus changes regularly as
the Australian dollar drops against the USD). The majority are found in
New South Wales (262), closely followed by Victoria with 169.


Quote:


When the Model 3 arrives, you can expect that figure to increase
significantly.



On another tack if every car was electric and huge advances were not
made in electric supply would that work, there are already parts of
the UK that recon they will mandate all electric in the not too
distant future, that will be fun.

**Can you suggest another alternative? Unless people in Australia's
large cities switch to public transport in droves, then we are all in
for a great deal of trouble. EVs can mitigate some of the problem.


If all cars were electric they would probably have to figure out how
to tax highly the electricity used to charge them while not the
existing system ( maybe distance based rego?)and what to do with the
collapse of the existing fuel supply system

**You're thinking vertically. Every car will have a system that
communicates with the relevant authority and will be charged by distance
travelled on most roads. The existing fuel supply system won't collapse
overnight.







FMurtz
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:57 am   



Trevor Wilson wrote:
Quote:
On 13/09/2017 11:24 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

Dunno.

But one thing is certain, once the number of electric cars starts to
impact on petrol sales, governments will be looking to tax them so as to
recover the lost duty and gst revenue.

Sylvia.

I hesitate to put URLs like this Because if they do not agree with
Trevor's take the articles are bullshit.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/how-many-teslas-does-it-take-to-black-out-an-apartment-block-13934/


**You stupid lying cunt. I just explained that there are already more
than 1,000 EVs in an Australian city (Sydney). I made no other claims.


You keep changing the goalposts, my original post specified TESLAS for a
reason, Not interested in any others in this discussion.


Quote:

Will lots of EVs cause problems in Sydney?

Possibly. If nothing changes.

However, there is another way to view the situation:

Part of the present problem with electricity generation in Australia is
that the electricity generation industry is in a 'death spiral'. People
are using less power, because electricity costs more and appliances are
more efficient. Because less power is being used, power companies have
to raise prices to maintain profitability. A large increase in EVs will
increase electricity demand and require that power companies deliver
more power, thus increasing their profitability.

So, rather than being a bad thing, more EVs may be beneficial for
everyone. Particularly since the uptake is so gradual.

Now, what are the further ramifications?

The petrol/oil industry will likely enter it's 'death spiral' as more
people switch over to EVs and H2 powered vehicles.


Trevor Wilson
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:46 am   



On 14/09/2017 10:40 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Quote:
Once upon a time on usenet Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 13/09/2017 9:03 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor_at_spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 12/09/2017 7:02 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 3:09 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:38 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

**They're already here. Tesla is tight-lipped on sales data,
but sell approximately 1,000 cars per year. Let's say Tesla
have sold 1,000 cars
into Sydney, as Sydney is a significant portion of EV sales.

Then there's the others:

Nissan Leaf - 635 cars sold. Let's say, 200 are in Sydney.
Audi A3 e-tron - 128 cars sold. Let's say, 40 in Sydney.
Mitsubishi PHEV - 1,665 cars sold. Let's say, 550 in Sydney.
There are others, but figures are tiny.

So, there are at least 1,200 pure EVs in Sydney and probably a
similar
number in Melbourne. There are more PHEVs as well. Many are
most likely
operated solely on electricity.

Your point is?

Up to 40 amps for maybe 10 hours a day

**Yes. And your point is? I just showed that there are more
than 1,200 pure EVs (and quite a few PHEVs) in Sydney and
probably Melbourne right now. Every time I drive around Sydney,
I see at least one Tesla and frequently 2 or 3. There are more
coming.
we could handle a few

most EVs take a lot less than teslas and if there was a thousand
teslas in sydney itself and similar amounts in other suburbs it
would cost AGL a fortune

**I'll say it again: THERE ALREADY ARE MORE THAN 1,200 EVs IN
SYDNEY, RIGHT NOW!


**I'll say it again: TESLAs

**And I will say again: There are AT LEAST 1,000 Teslas in Sydney
right now. When the Model 3 arrives, you can expect that figure to
increase significantly.

Which will make AGL very happy when they decide to raise their prices
again.

**Perhaps. Perhaps not. Either way, more electricity will need to be
supplied, which may allow power companies to climb out of their death
spiral.


On another tack if every car was electric and huge advances were
not made in electric supply would that work, there are already
parts of the UK that recon they will mandate all electric in the
not too distant future, that will be fun.

**Can you suggest another alternative? Unless people in
Australia's large cities switch to public transport in droves,
then we are all in for a great deal of trouble. EVs can mitigate
some of the problem.
If all cars were electric they would probably have to figure out
how to tax highly the electricity used to charge them while not
the existing system ( maybe distance based rego?)and what to do
with the collapse of the existing fuel supply system

**You're thinking vertically. Every car will have a system that
communicates with the relevant authority and will be charged by
distance travelled on most roads.

I hope not, I don't want my car spying on me (though I'm probably
one of the very few who usually don't have another device spying on
them at the same time anyway).

**Then you would be one of the very few motorists that doesn't use a
toll tag. That would make driving around any of Australia's major
cities extremely inconvenient.


It seems to me that AGL have solved the government's problem for
them in this regard. Their new $1/day rate is charged on a specific
electric car outlet of a special power meter which has to be
installed in order to access the deal. The government just has to
bill AGL, and all those who copy them, for a percentage of what
their meters charge and the system is back to normal again.

The existing fuel supply system won't collapse overnight.

Yep, for as long as our civilisation keeps itself together I doubt
that it will ever become impossible for people like us to buy fuel,
but at some point soon it probably won't make sense to keep using it
for personal everyday transport.

**Keep imagining that. The fact is that oil is going to become a lot
more expensive and H2 and electricity will be cheaper. The oil
companies will be caught in their own death spiral in a few years.
Eventually, petrol/oil will be so expensive that buying an electric
or H2 powered car will be the preferred way for the vast majority.

What about agricultural and earthmoving machinery?


**H2.

Ocean-going ships and
> airliners?

**H2 or synthesised fuel. Make no mistake: the era of cheap airline
travel will soon be over. Ships are easier. They can run on almost
anything. Nuclear energy would be ideal.

Will they all go electric too?

**Ships are already Diesel/electric. So, they're half way there.


If not what will happen to the
Quote:
petrol fraction of the oil that is left over when oil is refined for thier
use?


**Oil will still be in use for a long time. It's just going to get a lot
more expensive.


(After all Carl Benz chose petrol to power his original ICE because it
Quote:
was so very cheap as there was little use for it back then.)

https://youtu.be/jntsT0BdxDw?t=8m08s

The whole video is well worth a watch - and the channel a subscribe.


**I'll have a look a bit later.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Sylvia Else
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:03 pm   



On 14/09/2017 7:31 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
Quote:
On 13/09/2017 11:24 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

Dunno.

But one thing is certain, once the number of electric cars starts to
impact on petrol sales, governments will be looking to tax them so as to
recover the lost duty and gst revenue.

Sylvia.

I hesitate to put URLs like this Because if they do not agree with
Trevor's take the articles are bullshit.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/how-many-teslas-does-it-take-to-black-out-an-apartment-block-13934/


**You stupid lying cunt. I just explained that there are already more
than 1,000 EVs in an Australian city (Sydney). I made no other claims.

Will lots of EVs cause problems in Sydney?

Possibly. If nothing changes.

However, there is another way to view the situation:

Part of the present problem with electricity generation in Australia is
that the electricity generation industry is in a 'death spiral'. People
are using less power, because electricity costs more and appliances are
more efficient. Because less power is being used, power companies have
to raise prices to maintain profitability. A large increase in EVs will
increase electricity demand and require that power companies deliver
more power, thus increasing their profitability.


There's nothing to stop a person recharging their EV from a suitably
large array of PV cells, and using the grid only when the sun didn't
shine. Essentially then, they'll just be part of the death spiral.

Sylvia.

Trevor Wilson
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:16 pm   



On 14/09/2017 8:03 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
On 14/09/2017 7:31 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 13/09/2017 11:24 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

Dunno.

But one thing is certain, once the number of electric cars starts to
impact on petrol sales, governments will be looking to tax them so
as to
recover the lost duty and gst revenue.

Sylvia.

I hesitate to put URLs like this Because if they do not agree with
Trevor's take the articles are bullshit.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/how-many-teslas-does-it-take-to-black-out-an-apartment-block-13934/


**You stupid lying cunt. I just explained that there are already more
than 1,000 EVs in an Australian city (Sydney). I made no other claims.

Will lots of EVs cause problems in Sydney?

Possibly. If nothing changes.

However, there is another way to view the situation:

Part of the present problem with electricity generation in Australia
is that the electricity generation industry is in a 'death spiral'.
People are using less power, because electricity costs more and
appliances are more efficient. Because less power is being used, power
companies have to raise prices to maintain profitability. A large
increase in EVs will increase electricity demand and require that
power companies deliver more power, thus increasing their profitability.

There's nothing to stop a person recharging their EV from a suitably
large array of PV cells, and using the grid only when the sun didn't
shine. Essentially then, they'll just be part of the death spiral.

Sylvia.


**Bang-on Sylvia. My next car (after the one to be delivered in January)
will likely be 100% electric, probably mostly self-driving. I can fit
around 4kW of Solar PV on my garage roof (North oriented). By the time I
buy my electric car, Solar PV will be almost free. 4kW of Solar PV would
allow me to drive an EV for 90% of the time free of cost (electricity).
Surplus power will be directed to a battery bank and then back into the
grid, for any unused electrons. Maybe I'll just share with my next door
neighbour. That said, it is also likely I will be in the minority, given
the proliferation of home units in Sydney nowadays. All those people
will have to plug-in.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

FMurtz
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:09 pm   



Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
On 14/09/2017 7:31 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 13/09/2017 11:24 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

Dunno.

But one thing is certain, once the number of electric cars starts to
impact on petrol sales, governments will be looking to tax them so
as to
recover the lost duty and gst revenue.

Sylvia.

I hesitate to put URLs like this Because if they do not agree with
Trevor's take the articles are bullshit.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/how-many-teslas-does-it-take-to-black-out-an-apartment-block-13934/


**You stupid lying cunt. I just explained that there are already more
than 1,000 EVs in an Australian city (Sydney). I made no other claims.

Will lots of EVs cause problems in Sydney?

Possibly. If nothing changes.

However, there is another way to view the situation:

Part of the present problem with electricity generation in Australia
is that the electricity generation industry is in a 'death spiral'.
People are using less power, because electricity costs more and
appliances are more efficient. Because less power is being used, power
companies have to raise prices to maintain profitability. A large
increase in EVs will increase electricity demand and require that
power companies deliver more power, thus increasing their profitability.

There's nothing to stop a person recharging their EV from a suitably
large array of PV cells, and using the grid only when the sun didn't
shine. Essentially then, they'll just be part of the death spiral.

Sylvia.

Except that in the case of a tesla you may not have a yard big enough
for the array. Smile and if you only drove during the day you would
probably need a spare changeable set of batteries without the grid, or
if using the grid it would be most of the time

keithr0
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:42 pm   



On 9/14/2017 2:46 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
Quote:
On 14/09/2017 10:40 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 13/09/2017 9:03 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor_at_spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 12/09/2017 7:02 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 3:09 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:38 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

**They're already here. Tesla is tight-lipped on sales data,
but sell approximately 1,000 cars per year. Let's say Tesla
have sold 1,000 cars
into Sydney, as Sydney is a significant portion of EV sales.

Then there's the others:

Nissan Leaf - 635 cars sold. Let's say, 200 are in Sydney.
Audi A3 e-tron - 128 cars sold. Let's say, 40 in Sydney.
Mitsubishi PHEV - 1,665 cars sold. Let's say, 550 in Sydney.
There are others, but figures are tiny.


So, if there are 1200 EVs in Sydney and 790 aren't Teslas, then there
can't be more than 410 Teslas in Sydney by your figures. I'd think that
would be on the high side too, here in SEQ, I've seen 2.

Quote:
So, there are at least 1,200 pure EVs in Sydney and probably a
similar
number in Melbourne. There are more PHEVs as well. Many are
most likely
operated solely on electricity.

Your point is?

Up to 40 amps for maybe 10 hours a day

**Yes. And your point is? I just showed that there are more
than 1,200 pure EVs (and quite a few PHEVs) in Sydney and
probably Melbourne right now. Every time I drive around Sydney,
I see at least one Tesla and frequently 2 or 3. There are more
coming.
we could handle a few

most EVs take a lot less than teslas and if there was a thousand
teslas in sydney itself and similar amounts in other suburbs it
would cost AGL a fortune

**I'll say it again: THERE ALREADY ARE MORE THAN 1,200 EVs IN
SYDNEY, RIGHT NOW!


**I'll say it again: TESLAs

**And I will say again: There are AT LEAST 1,000 Teslas in Sydney
right now. When the Model 3 arrives, you can expect that figure to
increase significantly.

Which will make AGL very happy when they decide to raise their prices
again.

**Perhaps. Perhaps not. Either way, more electricity will need to be
supplied, which may allow power companies to climb out of their death
spiral.


On another tack if every car was electric and huge advances were
not made in electric supply would that work, there are already
parts of the UK that recon they will mandate all electric in the
not too distant future, that will be fun.

**Can you suggest another alternative? Unless people in
Australia's large cities switch to public transport in droves,
then we are all in for a great deal of trouble. EVs can mitigate
some of the problem.
If all cars were electric they would probably have to figure out
how to tax highly the electricity used to charge them while not
the existing system ( maybe distance based rego?)and what to do
with the collapse of the existing fuel supply system

**You're thinking vertically. Every car will have a system that
communicates with the relevant authority and will be charged by
distance travelled on most roads.

I hope not, I don't want my car spying on me (though I'm probably
one of the very few who usually don't have another device spying on
them at the same time anyway).

**Then you would be one of the very few motorists that doesn't use a
toll tag. That would make driving around any of Australia's major
cities extremely inconvenient.


It seems to me that AGL have solved the government's problem for
them in this regard. Their new $1/day rate is charged on a specific
electric car outlet of a special power meter which has to be
installed in order to access the deal. The government just has to
bill AGL, and all those who copy them, for a percentage of what
their meters charge and the system is back to normal again.

The existing fuel supply system won't collapse overnight.

Yep, for as long as our civilisation keeps itself together I doubt
that it will ever become impossible for people like us to buy fuel,
but at some point soon it probably won't make sense to keep using it
for personal everyday transport.

**Keep imagining that. The fact is that oil is going to become a lot
more expensive and H2 and electricity will be cheaper. The oil
companies will be caught in their own death spiral in a few years.
Eventually, petrol/oil will be so expensive that buying an electric
or H2 powered car will be the preferred way for the vast majority.

What about agricultural and earthmoving machinery?

**H2.

Ocean-going ships and
airliners?

**H2 or synthesised fuel. Make no mistake: the era of cheap airline
travel will soon be over.


The energy density (in Wh/L) of H2 even compressed to 700bar is less
than 1/6 of jet fuel which means that airlines would need fuel tanks 6
times the size of current ones not to mention strong enough to contain
700bar. That would present aircraft designers with some problems.

Quote:
Ships are easier. They can run on almost
anything. Nuclear energy would be ideal.


Are you happy to have the nuclear waste end up near you?

Quote:
Will they all go electric too?

**Ships are already Diesel/electric. So, they're half way there.


The electric part is only the transmission, the energy still comes from oil.

Quote:
If not what will happen to the
petrol fraction of the oil that is left over when oil is refined for
thier
use?

**Oil will still be in use for a long time. It's just going to get a lot
more expensive.


(After all Carl Benz chose petrol to power his original ICE because it
was so very cheap as there was little use for it back then.)

https://youtu.be/jntsT0BdxDw?t=8m08s

The whole video is well worth a watch - and the channel a subscribe.


**I'll have a look a bit later.



Sylvia Else
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:47 pm   



On 14/09/2017 10:09 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Quote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 14/09/2017 7:31 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 13/09/2017 11:24 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

Dunno.

But one thing is certain, once the number of electric cars starts to
impact on petrol sales, governments will be looking to tax them so
as to
recover the lost duty and gst revenue.

Sylvia.

I hesitate to put URLs like this Because if they do not agree with
Trevor's take the articles are bullshit.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/how-many-teslas-does-it-take-to-black-out-an-apartment-block-13934/



**You stupid lying cunt. I just explained that there are already more
than 1,000 EVs in an Australian city (Sydney). I made no other claims.

Will lots of EVs cause problems in Sydney?

Possibly. If nothing changes.

However, there is another way to view the situation:

Part of the present problem with electricity generation in Australia
is that the electricity generation industry is in a 'death spiral'.
People are using less power, because electricity costs more and
appliances are more efficient. Because less power is being used, power
companies have to raise prices to maintain profitability. A large
increase in EVs will increase electricity demand and require that
power companies deliver more power, thus increasing their profitability.

There's nothing to stop a person recharging their EV from a suitably
large array of PV cells, and using the grid only when the sun didn't
shine. Essentially then, they'll just be part of the death spiral.

Sylvia.

Except that in the case of a tesla you may not have a yard big enough
for the array. Smile and if you only drove during the day you would
probably need a spare changeable set of batteries without the grid, or
if using the grid it would be most of the time


According to the specs on Wikipedia, the Tesla will give you about
5km/kWh. A domestic solar array should have no difficulty providing it
with a useful range (say 50km per day), except that people would likely
want to be using it during the day, not charging it.

Charging batteries (being not swapable) during the day, and then
charging the Tesla from them during the night should work OK, albeit
with some inefficiency.

Sylvia.

FMurtz
Guest

Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:44 pm   



Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
On 14/09/2017 10:09 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 14/09/2017 7:31 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 13/09/2017 11:24 PM, FMurtz wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 12/09/2017 1:05 AM, FMurtz wrote:
What would they do with a thousand Teslas in one city?

Dunno.

But one thing is certain, once the number of electric cars starts to
impact on petrol sales, governments will be looking to tax them so
as to
recover the lost duty and gst revenue.

Sylvia.

I hesitate to put URLs like this Because if they do not agree with
Trevor's take the articles are bullshit.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/how-many-teslas-does-it-take-to-black-out-an-apartment-block-13934/



**You stupid lying cunt. I just explained that there are already more
than 1,000 EVs in an Australian city (Sydney). I made no other claims.

Will lots of EVs cause problems in Sydney?

Possibly. If nothing changes.

However, there is another way to view the situation:

Part of the present problem with electricity generation in Australia
is that the electricity generation industry is in a 'death spiral'.
People are using less power, because electricity costs more and
appliances are more efficient. Because less power is being used, power
companies have to raise prices to maintain profitability. A large
increase in EVs will increase electricity demand and require that
power companies deliver more power, thus increasing their
profitability.

There's nothing to stop a person recharging their EV from a suitably
large array of PV cells, and using the grid only when the sun didn't
shine. Essentially then, they'll just be part of the death spiral.

Sylvia.

Except that in the case of a tesla you may not have a yard big enough
for the array. Smile and if you only drove during the day you would
probably need a spare changeable set of batteries without the grid, or
if using the grid it would be most of the time

According to the specs on Wikipedia, the Tesla will give you about
5km/kWh. A domestic solar array should have no difficulty providing it
with a useful range (say 50km per day), except that people would likely
want to be using it during the day, not charging it.


If you only drove such a small distance maybe but if you drive it 300
and with air con and a bit leadfooted it would be different.
If I go near the city I do 200 to 300 in a day may be twice a week Just
to day I went to Supercheap Auto 30 KM each way for a pot of paint.
I would love to have a Tesla but if I could afford it I would probably
have the preferred three phase in my mansion.
The tesla uses maybe three times the charge rate to fully charge than
most of the other fiddly EVs

Quote:

Charging batteries (being not swapable) during the day, and then
charging the Tesla from them during the night should work OK, albeit
with some inefficiency.

Sylvia.



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