advice on selecting new PCB design package

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:27 am   

Thanks Andy,
Seems like you know exactly what I am talking about if you also did the
change to PCAD. Was that back in early 2000, like I reported about my old
mates? Yes I would imagine the switch was pretty seemless since I had always
considered ACCEL EDA just a junior/limited version of PCAD.

From what you are now saying, maybe Altium was forced to reconsider the
orphaning of the ACCEL users and reversed it's decision but not until after
they had already convinced my former work mates to upgrade to the full PCAD.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Andy Peters" <Bassman59a_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142879026.440394.20600_at_i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:49 am   

Hi Lukas,

See my comments interspersed.


"Lukas Louw" <louw1_at_att.net> wrote in message
news:ZawTf.592420$qk4.495232_at_bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Yes, yes, everything you say is bang on with my memory except for the name.
Don't recall the one copper pour limit, could have been but I would think I
would have remembered that because personally I love copper pours, can't do
without them. Maybe one per layer? Hold it I have a couple of old boards,
let me look. Damn, no external pours but there is at least one internal
layer with at least pours, can't see anything else internally so maybe there
is only one pour and the othewr internals were planes.


Well your last question is very appropriate. Yes I am confused because
my old mates told me that they were forced to update to the full unlimited
PCAD or face being orphaned. That came directly from the fellow that took
over all responsiblities for the software when I left the company. As I
mentioned in the other response to Andy, maybe Altium eventually was forced
to reconsider orphaning the ACCEL product but not until after my old mates
had already dove into the deep end and upgraded?

Except that at the time I had no confusion with all of the licensing
documentation nor technical support who all referenced ACCEL as the package
we were using. When I was using it, it may well have been what you referred
to as Tango but all my contacts and literature from ACCEL Technologies
referred to it as ACCEL EDA. So am I confused or was ACCEL Technologies
confused?

Here is what I might surmise. ACCEL Technologies may have wanted to
change the product name to ACCEL EDA but was fighting a loosing battle with
ole time Tango users that refused to completely give up on the old Tango
moniker? Just one possibility consider all that has been exchanged about it
in this thread. You will note that Dax's screenshot doesn't say Tango
anywhere on it and Andy "seems" to confirm my recollection as well. If Dax's
screenshot is from PCAD, which it could possibly be, all things considered,
then he will have 20 or more layer capability in the package.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:28 pm   

ACCEL Tango PCB vs. ACCEL P-CAD PCB from the old Accel website in 1999:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990202043848/www.acceltech.com/product_info/accel_eda/atpvsappv13.html

Nothing about pour limits. Just licensing, components and layers
limits.

Index page for snooping around the old Accel website using the Internet
Archive Wayback Machine:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.acceltech.com

Some of the PDF brochure links are active into the archive so the old
sales lit can be viewed.

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:13 pm   

"EDA for Dummies" ---> http://www.diptrace.com

For comparison, the lowest of the low end. Seems to be popular among
the kiddies. Has that Fisher-Price look. Does not come with Play Dough
desktop PCB fabrication machine :)

ROFL: "Try DipTrace and you will be surprised! DipTrace is a complete
state-of-the-art PCB Design System."

$145 for 500 pins, 2 layer version
$595 for unlimited version

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:56 pm   

"EDA for Dummies" ---> http://www.diptrace.com

For comparison, the lowest of the low end. Seems to be popular among
the kiddies. Has that Fisher-Price look. Does not come with Play Dough
desktop PCB fabrication machine :)

ROFL: "Try DipTrace and you will be surprised! DipTrace is a complete
state-of-the-art PCB Design System."

$145 for 500 pins, 2 layer version
$595 for unlimited version

Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:17 pm   

I upgraded from Tango DOS to Accel Tech PCAD TANGO ( the limited version)
V12, circa 1996, and only one copper pour was allowed, which was relaxed in
later versions, don't ask me which, it's MUCH too long
ago...............................

Lukas

Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:32 pm   

"EDA for Dummies" ---> http://www.diptrace.com

For comparison, the lowest of the low end. Seems to be popular among
the kiddies. Has that Fisher-Price look. Does not come with Play Dough
desktop PCB fabrication machine :)

ROFL: "Try DipTrace and you will be surprised! DipTrace is a complete
state-of-the-art PCB Design System."

$145 for 500 pins, 2 layer version
$595 for unlimited version

Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:36 pm   

On 21 Mar 2006 11:32:13 -0800 in sci.electronics.cad, "Dax"
<email_demonoid_at_yahoo.com> wrote,

Silly, Play-Doh is no good for PCBs.
Play-Doh is for making prototype cases.
(And it's Hasbro, not FP. http://www.hasbro.com/playdoh/ )

Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:06 pm   

"DJ Delorie" <dj_at_delorie.com> wrote in message
news:xnodzzh2n4.fsf_at_delorie.com...

I suspect it probably would have done OK, since the costs seem comparable to
using an LPKF machine (not at all cheap), and they've been in business for
quite some time now. I'd guess the hard part is initially getting the product
to market and gaining market share.

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:08 am   

David Harmon <source_at_netcom.com> writes:

Actually, there's one company that came up with a way to make PCBs
using a play-doh like conductive goo. Mill/drill recesses in blank
(i.e. no copper) FR4 where you want "traces", squeegie the goo into
the recesses, bake so it hardens. Presto! Solderable traces, "plated
through" vias, etc, without etching.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find anyone who commercialized the process.
It probably would have cost too much for the equipment anyway

Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:59 am   

Well great job Dax,
I hadn't thought of trying the internet "wayback machine". Most
everytime I have tried it, they didn't have anything for the sites I was
looking for. After any number of unsuccessful tries I sort of gave up ever
looking.

So I guess most everything is answered, It was called "...Tango PCB", 6
routing/signal layer limit, 400 components confirmed, more than one pour (I
was quite sure I saw two inside the one board I looked at. Although I
thought it could have been a split plane or a pour/fill combination).

The real name configuration is closest to what Lukas had suggested with
The PCAD and Tango tools both being subproducts of the ACCEL EDA tool
family.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Dax" <email_demonoid_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142951307.950271.80080_at_j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:13 pm   

DMBPrescott_at_aol.com wrote:
: Right......... gimmee the names of some well known companies using gEDA
: on serious, mission critcal projects????

Don,

While browsing for something else, I happened to find this company
which lists gEDA alongside PADS as one of their preferred tools:

http://www.distantfocus.com/main/services_index.html

Page down to the "tools" section.

Looks like gEDA is gaining traction in the commercial world.

Stuart

Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:19 am   

I said "well known companies".................

And gEDA ain't gaining "traction" in the commercial world. OK, tell me
some points about gEDA that would attract me to use it instead of one
of the standard paid-for products..... And don't tell me it's free.
The fact that it's free is paradoxically a deterent to a serious user.

Prescott

Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:50 am   

I've looked at gEDA as well, and compared to PCAD, which I use, it is near
unusable. I'd love to get rid of annual maintenance fees like everyone else,
but switching to GEDA will definitely be a step backwards in productivity
for me.

OTOH anyone who uses one of these packages for commercial work should not
really be concerned about up front cost and maintenance fees and such, IMHO.
It's a business expense like anything else, and you amortize the initial
purchase cost over a few contracts, and maintenance should really be covered
by one medium sized job.

Even a low cost EDA package like Cadsoft's Eagle pretty much blows gEDA out
of the water. Their professional package at US$1200 seems to be a vary fair
deal. One design job takes care of that....... They don't seem to list
maintenance fees, so I can't comment on that, but even at say US$300/year,
that cost can easily be covered by one small design job per year.....

That does not mean that I'll never consider switching, but gEDA has a loong
ways to go before it'll be mature enough to be considered as a serious
contender.

I DO like the concept of course, and wish the developers all the best in
their endeavors.

Lukas

Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:34 pm   

"Lukas Louw" <louw1_at_att.net> writes:

Why?