advice on selecting new PCB design package

Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:43 am   

Joel Kolstad wrote:


<http://www.numberone.com/index.asp>

Typically, the url doesn't even mention EasyPC.


They really are daft. They used to do a 98UKP version, which was at
least within hobbyist/ microbusiness range. They've dropped that. The
free demo version is utterly unusable, as it can't load or save. It's as
though they really don't want to sell it. Rather typically British I'm
afraid.

Paul Burke

Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:10 am   

My thanks to everyone for giving this subject its best airing for a
long time.

Do people have strong opinions on which of the budget packages produce
the highest quality actual pcb, bugs and bad user interfaces not
withstanding. I need 6 layers in total with good control over split
planes and DRC and I need it to look good! I only need to use it once
as if on the off chance I made any money out of it I would probably buy
ORCAD simply because I have used it a lot over the last ten years or
so.

Colin

Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:44 pm   

Some budget packages are not really useable for anything above the
hobbyist level boards. The problem they have is charge only a hundred
dollars or so for the product and have little or no money for support.
A good example is the AutoTRAX product from a one man operation in the
UK. You wouldn't risk a serious design to such a package.

Despite what the previous guy says, Easy-PC packs a big punch for the
money. Why should he be hung-up on there not being a free version or
that the Easy-PC website says Number One Systems....? If I search for
Windows, Excel, Powerpoint I get directed to a website that says
Microsoft.... If I seach for PADs I get directed to Mentor..... so
what's it got to do with being 'British'....?

OrCAD looks to be on the slippery slope. The schematics is still good
but the OrCAD layout product is from the stone age. It looks DOS to
me......! What little dev that remains is now coming from India - the
US OrCAD dev group is long gone. Cadence don't even sell it
nowadays..... all sales are through Distributors.

Prescott

Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:25 pm   

to photos of his output from gschem / pcb / gEDA
but he has switched servers so often
that none of those links are still valid.
They looked good, apparantly he was making a good living,
and the cost of gEDA is ZERO.

I figure that choosing an ECAD is like selecting a car.
All posts in this thread should conclude with a YMMV.
..
..

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/1656681d9bef69bd/9d104f8f54b69ee7?q=*-*-never-seen-split-grounds-work-well+save-a-plane-*-do-it-right+*-causes-*-as-many-problems-as-it-cures+Splitting-grounds-rarely-makes-sense+c-shaped-*-*+zzz+wrong-reason&fwc=1
The thread is indexed to specifics
(in Courier so you can see Ken Smith's diagram);
Larkin and Joerg give the overview near the beginning of the thread.

Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:16 am   

"Paul Burke" <paul_at_scazon.com> wrote in message
news:47smpvFhc0e3U1_at_individual.net...

Ah, thanks. I was thinking Number One's web site was for a distributor
selling both Pulsonix and EasyPC, but I was clearly mistaken.


Haha...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:49 am   

Look, common sense must tell you that you aren't going to get a product
to handle 6 layers for nothing.
You can buy good quality CAD for a reasonable amount nowadays so why
mess with a free product like gEDA?

In general, such products are created by enthusiasts for the use of
other enthusiasts. It's just like saying "I'm not going to use any
commercial level wordprocessing, spreadsheet, presentation, publishing
tools, only what I can get free on the internet". Yep, you will
undoubtedly find such products but would you find anyone who relies on
software tools for their livelihood wasting time with them........ No,
of course not.

Rule of thumb: if you're a hobbyist, a technofreak, and/or design small
and very simple two sided boards with just a few standard components
then give the freebes a try. If you're doing any kind of commercial
level boards of any size above small and simple then expect to pay at
least $500 and upwards for something decent and reliable.

Prescott

Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:03 pm   

DMBPrescott_at_aol.com wrote:

You can. It's called KiCAD, and it's similar to most low- end CADs. I
don't like its interface, but people who have tried it say it works well.


KiCAD was developed by academic programmers, hardly amateurs. You can
get full commercial grade wordprocessing, spreadsheet etc. totally free-
look up Open Office.

The free products are often as well, or better supported than the
equivalent commercial one. People may well be doing it for geekish fun
in many cases, but is a geek likely to make a worse job than a bored
hourly-paid programmer with a boss desperate to release product and a
support department concerned mainly with saving face?

Paul Burke

Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:09 pm   

DMBPrescott_at_aol.com wrote:

Because products like gEDA aren't just about being free (although
that is nice). They are about giving you _full_ control over your
design. Common sense says that commercial entities are
interested in making money (right?) so they will do as much as
possible to retain control over your designs that you created using
their product (that is, lock you into using their product exclusively)
and make it as hard as possible to use a competitor's product. I
like to control the software I use.

Here's a good list of reasons why somebody would want to use
gEDA (or any free software/OSS for that matter):

http://geda.seul.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=geda:faq#why_what_makes_geda_so_different_from_other_eda_tools
(sorry about the long link)

[snip]

Here's a list of successful projects on the 'net (there are more out
there; I just haven't found them and some are commercial people
obviously do not post their designs ) that use gEDA:

http://geda.seul.org/links.html#projects

I would say that some of them are fairly non-trivial. It becoming
more and more evident that free software/OSS tools are capable
of being used to create complex designs.

-Ales

--
Ales Hvezda
ahvezda AT seul.org
http://geda.seul.org

Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:28 pm   

DMBPrescott_at_aol.com writes:

PCB (part of the gEDA project) handles 8 layers by default, for no
cost. Minimum board size is, as I posted before, about a third of a
mile square in the development version (the latest released version is
"limited" to 32x32 inches, just for you convenience, you can change it
if you want). You can easily rebuild it for more layers if you need
to (I've built it for 50+ layers before). Did I mention it's no cost?

So, your common sense needs adjusting.

And if it doesn't happen to do what you want, you have options that
the commercial vendors can't offer you:

* You can change it yourself.

* You can get a friend to change it.

* You can pay a contractor (your choice!) to change it.

* You can pay (or bribe) one of the PCB developers to change it.

* You can ask nicely and someone may change it for you for fun.

* You can complain that it doesn't do what you like (ok, the
commercial vendors offer this one as well

Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:38 pm   

DMBPrescott_at_aol.com wrote:

Have you been hiding under a rock for the last ten years? There are a
number of reasons why free and open source software is popular, only one
of which is the cost. Assuming you are talking about desktop software
(since no one but a fully paid astroturfer would suggest free and open
source software is not suitable for server and infrastructure
applications), a steadily increasing proportion of users rely on more
and more free and open source software. Personally, I have not used
commercial "office" applications in a professional context since a brief
spell with Word 2 around 12 years ago. I specifically choose LaTeX for
documentation, because it is a far more professional and capable system
for technical writing than any commercial word processor. For simpler
documents I actively choose Open Office - leaving an unopened, unwanted
copy of Word lying on a shelf. For my programming work (my main job), I
choose to use free gcc ports rather than commercial toolkits whenever I
can. I do so because I get higher quality software, better control of
the software, and better control of the work produced using the
software. For some types of software I am even more extreme - in my
role as IT manager for our company, I dictate that Internet Explorer, a
popular commercial browser, is not to be used for security reasons,
while open source FireFox and free (but not open source) Opera are suitable.

EDA software is a special case. The market is much smaller than for,
say, a word processor, and writing EDA software is specialist work
requiring a lot of effort to develop. This has meant the rise of free
and open source EDA software has been a lot slower than in many other
areas. Software like KiCAD is fine for small or hobby projects, but
does not have the professional features for bigger projects. gEDA is
capable of large projects, but suffers badly from its appearance and
usability (or lack thereof). Quite frankly, the schematic and pcb
screenshots look like something from an early 1990's DOS program. I'm
sure it works well in use, but it's hardly going to attract new users
without a major facelift (and a native windows port - cross-platform
programming is not *that* hard, as long as you use toolkits like GTK or
wxWidgets rather than XAW). What the open source tools do have, though,
is open file formats - something that is sorely missed in this branch,
and a major source of vendor lock-in.

So if you want to say there are no open source EDA tools that are ready
for mainstream professional use, then I (unfortunately) have to agree.
But that's not because of problems with open source as such - it is lack
of money, time, motivation and direction that currently stops gEDA from
being a match for Protel, OrCAD, etc. In other software branches where
time, money, motivation and direction are available, then open source
software is often superior to any available commercial equivalent.

Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:23 pm   

No........ haven't been under any rocks old friend. Right, so you use
open source all the time do you...Mmmmm. Is this professionally or
personally...? If it's professionally can you divulge the name of your
company? Does it have a website? Can you tell me the number of staff,
revenues, etc...?

You went into a long attack on my logic then say:

"gEDA is capable of large projects, but suffers badly from its
appearance and
usability (or lack thereof). Quite frankly, the schematic and pcb
screenshots look like something from an early 1990's DOS program. I'm
sure it works well in use, but it's hardly going to attract new users
without a major facelift"

Would any sensible commercial enterprise want to save a few hundred
dollars by using something resembling an early 90's DOS product"...????

Prescott

Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:25 pm   

Right......... gimmee the names of some well known companies using gEDA
on serious, mission critcal projects????

Prescott

Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:33 pm   

OK Paul, are you talking from experience or what you think sounds
right....???

You say "but people who have tried it (KiCAD) say it works well"....

what people...??

Tell us about the serious projects KiCAD has been used on..?? Can you
give me the size of boards, number of layers, level of technology,
value of projects...etc.

Prescott

Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:34 pm   

I would like to jump in on this discussion. I have been
frustrated finding an EDA program that is:

* relatively easy to learn/use (I don't do cards very often)
* Can do a EuroCard sized card (4 in. by 6 in. I believe)
* 2 signal 2 power construction, 512 nodes
* Schematic capture and PCB design
* Low cost to free (for moderate use).

My review of various programs has found:

* Kicad -- can't be used on WinME, have not tried Linux (and
won't for now)

* FreePCB -- no schematic capture, but seems good otherwise.

* gEDA -- This group of well meaning people just don't have
a clue! Just read the most recent Circuit Cellar. An hour
to install on Linux! I don't think so. gEDA needs a
consistent interface from program to program, an installer
such as an open version of Wise, and a Windows version.
Most desktops are Windows, so why not a Windows version?? A
good user guide is also needed. This is a lot of work I
know (this is what I do for a living, so I fully get what is
involved), but is a requirement for gEDA to soar to the
heights that I believe it is capable of doing. I would
settle for a Knoppix CD with all of the gEDA programs and a
user guide. The user guide can be an updated version of the
articles in CC for a start.

* ExpressPCB -- propriety data format. Not acceptable!!

* Eagle -- Not the most user friendly program I have seen,
especially for a "professional" one. The free version is
very limited as well, but will do. This is what I'm using
until one of the ones above offer a better deal.

Dave,


Ales Hvezda wrote:

Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:58 pm   

Dave Boland wrote:

You use WinME ?!? I didn't think anyone considered WinME a usable
system, even for the simplest home use. I don't normally like it when
people recommend upgrading your OS just to run a particular program, but
in the case of WinME, I'd make an exception. W2K or even XP is a much
better OS all round (assuming you want to remain with windows).

Incidentally, have you tried Kicad with WinME? I know the website says
W2K or XP, but it might run fine nonetheless. Certainly the main tools
and libraries (mingw and wxWidgets) are fine under at least Win98.