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74HC4046 Model Development

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Jim Thompson
Guest

Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:42 pm   



On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:26:13 +0200, Günter Haarmann <none_at_none.de>
wrote:

Quote:
Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:


I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.

...Jim Thompson


No. if you don´t want to give you won´t receive.

You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.

I GAVE you a model. I didn't charge for it. I encrypted it to
conceal my "tricks of the trade".

I know my model works under LTspice...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/74HC4046_VCO_SUB_SIM_LT.pdf

my submission was simply to make sure it also works after encryption.

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

George Herold
Guest

Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:22 pm   



On Oct 22, 10:04 am, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Quote:
On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, Günter Haarmann wrote:

Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:

I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.

...Jim Thompson

No. if you don´t want to give you won´t receive.

You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.

I dunno.  Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
the production parts.  (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favour of
people being able to make a living.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot nethttp://electrooptical.net


Hi Guys, OK I just finished test9ng the difference between the TI and
NXP versions of the VCO in the HC4046. The good news (for me) is
there's hardly any difference between the two. (This is with a VCO
'bias' resistor of 4.02k ohm.) (And four different caps, 2.7nF,
7.4nF, 22 nF, and 66nF +/-5%.)
The supply voltage was 6.36 Volts.

Here's the data for the TI version. First column is the VCO voltage
(in volts)
and the next four are the VCO frequencies in kHz. (Frequencies only
measured on a digital 'scope so don't believe all those decimal
places :^)

George H.



0.9082 127.5 46 13.91 5.056
1.0114 141.87 51.197 15.475 5.621
1.2868 180.11 65.027 19.667 7.147
1.444 202.49 73.105 22.108 8.0316
1.7823 251.05 90.717 27.467 9.978
2.0047 283.96 102.664 31.093 11.295
2.3282 333.68 120.78 36.616 13.299
2.6532 386.36 140.04 42.496 15.448
2.9967 445.53 161.81 49.174 17.887
3.2618 494.67 179.89 54.719 19.9
3.6809 579.032 211.26 64.377 23.43
3.945 637.65 233.1 71.126 25.896
4.1987 698.34 255.92 78.196 28.48
4.5543 791.99 291.198 89.157 32.49
4.8743 888.35 327.83 100.57 36.7
5.063 951.81 352.09 108.17 39.5
5.2847 1036.2 384.52 118.37 43.26
5.508 1143.4 425.94 131.41 48.07
5.714 1370.4 512.235 158.65 58.195

Mike Perkins
Guest

Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:08 pm   



On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:
Quote:

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.

...Jim Thompson


I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.

--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

Jim Thompson
Guest

Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:29 pm   



On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:08:24 +0100, Mike Perkins <spam_at_spam.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.

...Jim Thompson


I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.

I'm just going from reports here, primarily Phil Hobbs' bad
experiences. ALL of the data sheets look wonderful ;-)

I can certainly think of ways to improve it, particularly the current
mirrors, though a complete architecture change could easily eliminate
lots of the non-linearity issues.

Whoever rolled the CMOS copy totally missed an important point, don't
dump the capacitor into a substrate diode.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

amdx
Guest

Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:30 pm   



On 10/22/2012 9:04 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Quote:
On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, Günter Haarmann wrote:
Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:


I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.

...Jim Thompson


No. if you don´t want to give you won´t receive.

You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.

I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favor of
people being able to make a living.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Someone needs to make a living... and pay the taxes for the 47% that

don't! Or someone needs to work to pay the taxes required to fill the
welfare kitty with that 1.032 trillion dollars every year.
The government says we have 46 million people in poverty in 2012.
If you divide 1.032 trillion by 46 million that is $22,434 per person.
Minimum wage is about $15,000. Hmm...
Mikek

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:38 pm   



On 10/22/2012 03:08 PM, Mike Perkins wrote:
Quote:
On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.

...Jim Thompson


I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.

If you read the datasheet carefully, that good performance only exists

over a certain range of parameters, and is only typical, not guaranteed.
See the list of datasheet references I posted in the other HC4046
thread a few days ago.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

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