4046 PLL model scarcity.

Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:08 pm   

On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:02:36 -0500, Lostgallifreyan
<no-one_at_nowhere.net> wrote:


I would imagine that 4046 usage is even lower than that of the 555

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
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I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:21 pm   

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon_at_On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
news:pu3ja75dcabf9v4ois49k1iflcetpbv3ek_at_4ax.com:


Well if it turns out to be worse I'll have at it with the LM331 as VCO for a
4046. But not till I have tried the best 4046 VCO I can lay hands on.

Or do you mean occurence of use, and not usability? If so, sure, but having
read R. M. Marston's book mentioning the 4046 with lots of enthusiasm, the
idea of turning to a good variant of it as first trial in all kinds of
unusual situations appeals to me (as it did to that synthesiser designer on
the wep page I linked to last night). Most people would be amazed at the
effective uses for an LM317 too. This kind of thinking seems to be the
antidote for the early-obsolescense problem, and the increasing difficulty of
choosing an ideal part for pretty much anything.

Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:26 pm   

On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:21:25 -0500, Lostgallifreyan
<no-one_at_nowhere.net> wrote:


Yes.


? Is it really that useful?


...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:57 pm   

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon_at_On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
news:r05ja71nclq42d4hj387uqlun8b3vnngpo_at_4ax.com:


For interesting uses in making electronic music, yes. And perhaps any time a
fast cheap oscillator is wanted. IF the VCO is linear... Again, I point out
that page I linked to:
http://www.birthofasynth.com/Thomas_Henry/Pages/X-4046.html

I thought about using one that way (until I decided that getting a
pitch-based voltage to put into Dieter Doepfer's R2M 'ribbon control' unit
was more than enough for me), and that page shows at least two people
actually did it. Looks like a mighty useful IC to me... Most of the BIG
innovators of VCO's for music making would blush when confronted with specs
like those guys came up with using a 4046. Only the VCO's on the big famous
modular machines even came close.

Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:06 pm   

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon_at_On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
news:r05ja71nclq42d4hj387uqlun8b3vnngpo_at_4ax.com:


I just thought it worth mentioning that RM Marston in his books, and the
authors of the Art of Electronics, all thought it worth going into so either
they thought it was very useful, or at least interesting. To me it is both.

Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:43 pm   

Lostgallifreyan wrote:

took measurements possibly using a 1:1 probe or, that circuit just is
crappie!

Jamie

Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:50 pm   

On Oct 27, 6:22 pm, Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote:

The NXP 74HC9046 doesn't have the dead-zone problem on the digital
phase-comparator (PC2) and page 8 of the data sheet spells out the
problem with the original 4046, and the solution implelmented on the
74HC9046

http://ics.nxp.com/products/hc/datasheet/74hct9046a.pdf

The voltage-controlled oscillator isn't wildly attractive, but at
least the problems with it are spelled out.

You can buy them in small quantities, but not from Farnell

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=74HCT9046

http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/Technologies/Product.aspx?ProductID=74HCT9046APWNXP7585573

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:08 pm   

Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa__at_charter.net> wrote in
news:JXkqq.3431$yY3.2765_at_newsfe01.iad:


The kind of 'noise' that a 1 pole passive LPF (RC integrator) ought to fix.
Or a simple clipper, given that the amplitide would be cosnatnt with
frequency. Given that a synthesiser normally uses a 4 pole LPF I doubt they
considered that noise important. Analog synth waveforms vary a LOT more than
theirs do, you should see some of the 'sawtooths' out there! What you saw is
well behaved in comparison.

Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:16 pm   

Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa__at_charter.net> wrote in
news:JXkqq.3431$yY3.2765_at_newsfe01.iad:


Just for the proverbial shits and giggles, take a look at the 'analog'
sawtooth emulations in Yamaha's AN1X synthesiser! > If you have one
conveniently placed... I got better than that based on Yamaha's own, the
SY99, using FM synthesis, I got wave shapes that looked and sounded like the
Prophet 5! Even got them scaling correctly over several octaves without
distortion or aliasing, something even Yamaha failed to do with their own
tech, for reasons I can't understand, given that I could do it with front
panel controls. Three of those waveforms in a single voice got me a
well-priced sale of my first SY99, to a guy who owned Minimoogs. He was
totally convinced. That whole experience led me to buy an SY99 again some
years later, and I still have it. BUT, the AN1X sold a lot more machines for
Yamaha, it's extremely popular in the rave scene. Lesson learned: people will
accept some REALLY crappy waveforms if they like the noise they make. Those
PLL-based waves are some of the better ones, by far.

Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:55 pm   

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman_at_ieee.org> wrote in news:bdbc6f2e-3be2-4278-b1a4-
d6f358901227_at_s11g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:


Thanks, that's useful to me. I might try one, if the HEF4046B VCO doesn't
work well enough. One thing I saw, though not for certain as the graph for
linearity at a few hundred KHz covers less than two octaves worth, is that
linearity may be better at a few hundred KHz rather than audio frequencies.
If the same is true for the HEF4046B I might try a scheme I already
considered, using some division in the loop to get HF output from AF input,
as I only need the voltage, and can scale and offset later. If this can speed
response to bass frequency inputs (something I'm also still uncertain of),
then I'd definitely do this.

Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:47 am   

On Oct 27, 6:22 pm, Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote:

Check out the NXP 74HCT9046 which incorporates a solution to the dead
zone problem

http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/74HCT9046A.pdf

which is discussed on page 8 of the data sheet.

--
Bill sloman, Nijmegen

Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:51 pm   

Hello. Did you see my reply last night? More posts from you suggest you may
not have, and that you weren't seeing your own posts getting through either.
In case you see this, here's the reply from last night:

Thanks, that's useful to me. I might try one, if the HEF4046B VCO doesn't
work well enough. One thing I saw, though not for certain as the graph for
linearity at a few hundred KHz covers less than two octaves worth, is that
linearity may be better at a few hundred KHz rather than audio frequencies.
If the same is true for the HEF4046B I might try a scheme I already
considered, using some division in the loop to get HF output from AF input,
as I only need the voltage, and can scale and offset later. If this can speed
response to bass frequency inputs (something I'm also still uncertain of),
then I'd definitely do this.


Bill Sloman <bill.sloman_at_ieee.org> wrote in news:ad5d8b0f-521d-4186-ab5b-
5abd6560e531_at_h24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:

Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:45 pm   

On Oct 27, 6:22 pm, Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote:

For the dead zone problem, see the NXP 74HCT9046 which is claimed not
to have it, and discusses the questtion in some detail on page 8 of
its data sheet.

http://ics.nxp.com/products/hc/datasheet/74hct9046a.pdf

The data sheet does include detail on the VCO frequency to voltage
relationship.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen