EDAboard.com | EDAboard.de | EDAboard.co.uk | WTWH Media

180 degrees out of phase

Ask a question - edaboard.com

elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Electronics - 180 degrees out of phase

Goto page Previous  1, 2

Ian Field
Guest

Thu May 15, 2014 11:43 pm   



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfwundzeswtmtb_at_red.lan...
Quote:
On Thu, 15 May 2014 17:17:55 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfvb411eswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Wed, 14 May 2014 22:04:54 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfu31uw7swtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Wed, 14 May 2014 18:22:04 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xftohyxpswtmtb_at_red.lan...




He was telling you to put a series resonant LC across the mains.

That was my idea.

And I told him you were stupid enough to do it.

Then what was the DON'T!?

Assuming all theoretical ideal components, your series resonant circuit
would draw infinite current and produce infinite voltage at the junction
between L & C - you'd vaporise the whole galaxy.

So what about putting in in series with a 240V load?


It would see the load as a loss vector which would change the whole dynamic.

Uncle Peter
Guest

Fri May 16, 2014 3:58 am   



On Thu, 15 May 2014 18:43:09 +0100, Ian Field <gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

Quote:


"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfwundzeswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Thu, 15 May 2014 17:17:55 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfvb411eswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Wed, 14 May 2014 22:04:54 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfu31uw7swtmtb_at_red.lan...






And I told him you were stupid enough to do it.

Then what was the DON'T!?

Assuming all theoretical ideal components, your series resonant circuit
would draw infinite current and produce infinite voltage at the junction
between L & C - you'd vaporise the whole galaxy.

So what about putting in in series with a 240V load?

It would see the load as a loss vector which would change the whole dynamic.


Explain further. The added circuit should be a "negative resistance", which when added to a normal resistance would app to.... zero?!

--
Interesting fact number 476:
80% of millionaires drive used cars.

Ian Field
Guest

Fri May 16, 2014 8:56 pm   



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfw8nxkzswtmtb_at_red.lan...
Quote:
On Thu, 15 May 2014 18:43:09 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfwundzeswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Thu, 15 May 2014 17:17:55 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfvb411eswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Wed, 14 May 2014 22:04:54 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfu31uw7swtmtb_at_red.lan...






And I told him you were stupid enough to do it.

Then what was the DON'T!?

Assuming all theoretical ideal components, your series resonant circuit
would draw infinite current and produce infinite voltage at the
junction
between L & C - you'd vaporise the whole galaxy.

So what about putting in in series with a 240V load?

It would see the load as a loss vector which would change the whole
dynamic.

Explain further. The added circuit should be a "negative resistance",
which when added to a normal resistance would app to.... zero?!


In theoretically ideal components, C has current leading voltage by 90 deg
and L has current lagging by 90.

In real world components, losses alter the vector angles with the end result
that your series resonant circuit doesn't draw infinite current and produce
infinite voltage.

Uncle Peter
Guest

Fri May 16, 2014 11:48 pm   



On Fri, 16 May 2014 15:56:00 +0100, Ian Field <gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

Quote:


"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfw8nxkzswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Thu, 15 May 2014 18:43:09 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfwundzeswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Thu, 15 May 2014 17:17:55 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfvb411eswtmtb_at_red.lan...








Assuming all theoretical ideal components, your series resonant circuit
would draw infinite current and produce infinite voltage at the
junction
between L & C - you'd vaporise the whole galaxy.

So what about putting in in series with a 240V load?

It would see the load as a loss vector which would change the whole
dynamic.

Explain further. The added circuit should be a "negative resistance",
which when added to a normal resistance would app to.... zero?!

In theoretically ideal components, C has current leading voltage by 90 deg
and L has current lagging by 90.

In real world components, losses alter the vector angles with the end result
that your series resonant circuit doesn't draw infinite current and produce
infinite voltage.


But I wonder if it would help reduce the meter reading?

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people
appear bright until you hear them speak.

Ian Field
Guest

Sat May 17, 2014 12:07 am   



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfyrqdb6swtmtb_at_red.lan...
Quote:
On Fri, 16 May 2014 15:56:00 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfw8nxkzswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Thu, 15 May 2014 18:43:09 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfwundzeswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Thu, 15 May 2014 17:17:55 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfvb411eswtmtb_at_red.lan...








Assuming all theoretical ideal components, your series resonant
circuit
would draw infinite current and produce infinite voltage at the
junction
between L & C - you'd vaporise the whole galaxy.

So what about putting in in series with a 240V load?

It would see the load as a loss vector which would change the whole
dynamic.

Explain further. The added circuit should be a "negative resistance",
which when added to a normal resistance would app to.... zero?!

In theoretically ideal components, C has current leading voltage by 90
deg
and L has current lagging by 90.

In real world components, losses alter the vector angles with the end
result
that your series resonant circuit doesn't draw infinite current and
produce
infinite voltage.

But I wonder if it would help reduce the meter reading?


It incinerates your meter so there isn't much left to read.

You could buy all 110V appliances and use capacitor "wattless droppers".

That would put I out of phase with V and screw up the meter readings.

Each capacitor needs to be dimensioned for its load - Late hybrid TCE CTVs
used a wattless dropper for the 300mA heater chain, the capacitor was
4.3uF - you can scale that for the current draw of your appliances.

Uncle Peter
Guest

Sat May 17, 2014 2:21 am   



On Fri, 16 May 2014 19:07:37 +0100, Ian Field <gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

Quote:


"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfyrqdb6swtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Fri, 16 May 2014 15:56:00 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfw8nxkzswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Thu, 15 May 2014 18:43:09 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfwundzeswtmtb_at_red.lan...










It would see the load as a loss vector which would change the whole
dynamic.

Explain further. The added circuit should be a "negative resistance",
which when added to a normal resistance would app to.... zero?!

In theoretically ideal components, C has current leading voltage by 90
deg
and L has current lagging by 90.

In real world components, losses alter the vector angles with the end
result
that your series resonant circuit doesn't draw infinite current and
produce
infinite voltage.

But I wonder if it would help reduce the meter reading?

It incinerates your meter so there isn't much left to read.

You could buy all 110V appliances and use capacitor "wattless droppers".

That would put I out of phase with V and screw up the meter readings.


Meters (especially electronic ones) don't mind up to 90 degrees out of phase. I was looking for 180 degrees out of phase.

Quote:
Each capacitor needs to be dimensioned for its load - Late hybrid TCE CTVs
used a wattless dropper for the 300mA heater chain, the capacitor was
4.3uF - you can scale that for the current draw of your appliances.


So an extension to the house then.

--
A note left for a pianist from his wife: "Gone Chopin, have Liszt, Bach in a Minuet."

Ian Field
Guest

Sat May 17, 2014 2:33 am   



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfyyt9woswtmtb_at_red.lan...
Quote:
On Fri, 16 May 2014 19:07:37 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfyrqdb6swtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Fri, 16 May 2014 15:56:00 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfw8nxkzswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Thu, 15 May 2014 18:43:09 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xfwundzeswtmtb_at_red.lan...










It would see the load as a loss vector which would change the whole
dynamic.

Explain further. The added circuit should be a "negative resistance",
which when added to a normal resistance would app to.... zero?!

In theoretically ideal components, C has current leading voltage by 90
deg
and L has current lagging by 90.

In real world components, losses alter the vector angles with the end
result
that your series resonant circuit doesn't draw infinite current and
produce
infinite voltage.

But I wonder if it would help reduce the meter reading?

It incinerates your meter so there isn't much left to read.

You could buy all 110V appliances and use capacitor "wattless droppers".

That would put I out of phase with V and screw up the meter readings.

Meters (especially electronic ones) don't mind up to 90 degrees out of
phase. I was looking for 180 degrees out of phase.

Each capacitor needs to be dimensioned for its load - Late hybrid TCE
CTVs
used a wattless dropper for the 300mA heater chain, the capacitor was
4.3uF - you can scale that for the current draw of your appliances.

So an extension to the house then.


Each cap has to be dimensioned for its load - you can't bulk-dropper the
whole house.

Its basically approximating to a constant current supply, filament bulbs can
have accelerated end of life reactive loads like transformers can be pretty
unpredictable.

I have what used to be an IR/UV therapy lamp (till I broke the UV tube). The
2 IR bars add up to 110V and act as ballast for the tube when both on
together, the mans ir half wave rectified for IR only. As the IR bit is 110V
I could run it off a wattless dropper if I had a capacitor big enough.


Guest

Mon May 19, 2014 7:30 am   



On Fri, 16 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Quote:

But I wonder if it would help reduce the meter reading?

No. The coil and the capacitor add up (ideally) to zero impedence, so it's
like you put a wire accoss the mains. It burns and/or the breaker/fuse
opens. For real components the coil & cap still cancel out and leave
basically the resistance of the coil, which for a ``large'' coil is
probably small, so again bad things happen.

But you have a basic fallacy anyway. At resonance the current is /in/
phase with the voltage, the capacitive and inductive reactance cancel out
so the circuit looks purely resistive.

If you like complex impedences (and adding a bit of series R &
using the EE jxj=-1 & w standing in for omega = 2 pi f)

XL=jwL
XC=1/jwC
Z=jwL+1/jwC+R

at resonance w=sqrt(1/LC)
Z=j( sqrt(1/LC)L-1/sqrt(1/LC)C )+R=j( sqrt(L/C)-sqrt(L/C) )+R=R
I=V/R

and

VL=(V/R)jwL = j(V/R)sqrt(L/C)
VC=(V/R)(1/jwC)=-j(V/R)sqrt(L/C)

The voltages on the cap & coil are 90 out of phase with the currrent and
180 out with each other so they add to zero but can be very large
depending on the choice of R, L & C (and clearly they as well as the
current get large as R gets small).

If you did have current 180 out of phase with voltage you would have to be
supplying power and the meter ``should'' run backwards (it may or may not,
depending on design) but the power company doesn't normally buy power at
the rate they sell it so they wouldn't like it.

Ron

aye means yes to a sailor
eye in a needle I can thread
i is the imaginary unit
but EEs use j instead

Uncle Peter
Guest

Mon May 19, 2014 8:53 pm   



On Mon, 19 May 2014 06:25:09 +0100, <colonel_hack_at_yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Fri, 16 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:

But I wonder if it would help reduce the meter reading?

No. The coil and the capacitor add up (ideally) to zero impedence, so it's
like you put a wire accoss the mains. It burns and/or the breaker/fuse
opens. For real components the coil & cap still cancel out and leave
basically the resistance of the coil, which for a ``large'' coil is
probably small, so again bad things happen.

But you have a basic fallacy anyway. At resonance the current is /in/
phase with the voltage, the capacitive and inductive reactance cancel out
so the circuit looks purely resistive.

If you like complex impedences (and adding a bit of series R &
using the EE jxj=-1 & w standing in for omega = 2 pi f)

XL=jwL
XC=1/jwC
Z=jwL+1/jwC+R

at resonance w=sqrt(1/LC)
Z=j( sqrt(1/LC)L-1/sqrt(1/LC)C )+R=j( sqrt(L/C)-sqrt(L/C) )+R=R
I=V/R

and

VL=(V/R)jwL = j(V/R)sqrt(L/C)
VC=(V/R)(1/jwC)=-j(V/R)sqrt(L/C)

The voltages on the cap & coil are 90 out of phase with the currrent and
180 out with each other so they add to zero but can be very large
depending on the choice of R, L & C (and clearly they as well as the
current get large as R gets small).

If you did have current 180 out of phase with voltage you would have to be
supplying power and the meter ``should'' run backwards (it may or may not,
depending on design) but the power company doesn't normally buy power at
the rate they sell it so they wouldn't like it.


I see. I was reading this and thought "hmmmm....": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_resistance

--
Little Tony was staying with his grandmother for a few days.. He'd been playing outside with the other kids for a while when he came into the house and asked her, "Grandma, what's that called when 2 people sleep in the same room and one is on top of the other?"

She was a little taken, but she decided to just tell him the truth. "It's called sexual intercourse, darling".

Little Tony just said, "Oh, OK," and went back outside to play with the other kids.

A few minutes later he came back in and said angrily, "Grandma, it isn't called sexual intercourse. It's called "Bunk Beds". And Jimmy's mom wants to talk to you."

Ian Field
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 1:19 am   



<colonel_hack_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405181650420.37808_at_bunrab...
Quote:
On Fri, 16 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:

But I wonder if it would help reduce the meter reading?

No. The coil and the capacitor add up (ideally) to zero impedence, so it's
like you put a wire accoss the mains. It burns and/or the breaker/fuse
opens. For real components the coil & cap still cancel out and leave
basically the resistance of the coil, which for a ``large'' coil is
probably small, so again bad things happen.

But you have a basic fallacy anyway. At resonance the current is /in/
phase with the voltage, the capacitive and inductive reactance cancel out
so the circuit looks purely resistive.

If you like complex impedences (and adding a bit of series R &
using the EE jxj=-1 & w standing in for omega = 2 pi f)

XL=jwL
XC=1/jwC
Z=jwL+1/jwC+R

at resonance w=sqrt(1/LC)
Z=j( sqrt(1/LC)L-1/sqrt(1/LC)C )+R=j( sqrt(L/C)-sqrt(L/C) )+R=R
I=V/R


Peter did all that fancy math at uni, he can do the phase reversal in his
head - by attaching a pair of electrodes either side and passing the whole
meter current through it.

Rheilly Phoull
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 4:49 am   



On 20/05/14 03:19, Ian Field wrote:
Quote:


colonel_hack_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405181650420.37808_at_bunrab...
On Fri, 16 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:

But I wonder if it would help reduce the meter reading?

No. The coil and the capacitor add up (ideally) to zero impedence, so
it's like you put a wire accoss the mains. It burns and/or the
breaker/fuse opens. For real components the coil & cap still cancel
out and leave basically the resistance of the coil, which for a
``large'' coil is probably small, so again bad things happen.

But you have a basic fallacy anyway. At resonance the current is /in/
phase with the voltage, the capacitive and inductive reactance cancel
out so the circuit looks purely resistive.

If you like complex impedences (and adding a bit of series R &
using the EE jxj=-1 & w standing in for omega = 2 pi f)

XL=jwL
XC=1/jwC
Z=jwL+1/jwC+R

at resonance w=sqrt(1/LC)
Z=j( sqrt(1/LC)L-1/sqrt(1/LC)C )+R=j( sqrt(L/C)-sqrt(L/C) )+R=R
I=V/R

Peter did all that fancy math at uni, he can do the phase reversal in
his head - by attaching a pair of electrodes either side and passing the
whole meter current through it.


Hopefully he will?


Uncle Peter
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 4:57 am   



On Mon, 19 May 2014 23:49:14 +0100, Rheilly Phoull <rheilly_at_bigslong.com> wrote:

Quote:
On 20/05/14 03:19, Ian Field wrote:


colonel_hack_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405181650420.37808_at_bunrab...
On Fri, 16 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:

But I wonder if it would help reduce the meter reading?

No. The coil and the capacitor add up (ideally) to zero impedence, so
it's like you put a wire accoss the mains. It burns and/or the
breaker/fuse opens. For real components the coil & cap still cancel
out and leave basically the resistance of the coil, which for a
``large'' coil is probably small, so again bad things happen.

But you have a basic fallacy anyway. At resonance the current is /in/
phase with the voltage, the capacitive and inductive reactance cancel
out so the circuit looks purely resistive.

If you like complex impedences (and adding a bit of series R &
using the EE jxj=-1 & w standing in for omega = 2 pi f)

XL=jwL
XC=1/jwC
Z=jwL+1/jwC+R

at resonance w=sqrt(1/LC)
Z=j( sqrt(1/LC)L-1/sqrt(1/LC)C )+R=j( sqrt(L/C)-sqrt(L/C) )+R=R
I=V/R

Peter did all that fancy math at uni, he can do the phase reversal in
his head - by attaching a pair of electrodes either side and passing the
whole meter current through it.


Hopefully he will?


Do they do that for fun at parties in Wales?

--
It hurt the way your tongue hurts after you accidentally staple it to the wall.


Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 7:30 am   



On Mon, 19 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Quote:

I see. I was reading this and thought "hmmmm....":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_resistance


What is called ``Negative resistance'' is not quite the same. It is
different than just letting Z<1. Negative resistance normally refers to a
device where increasing current decreases the voltage, but the sign of the
voltage and current remain the same. i.e. 1mA through the device produces
1V across the device, but 1.1mA produces .9V. Basically, they are equating
R=dV/dI in a non-linear case while I was refering to letting R go complex
but staying linear.

A battery or a generator has current opposite the voltage but an increase
in the magnitude of current also produces a decrease in magnitude
of the voltage. i.e. -100mA @ 3V goes to -150mA @ 2.8V

A resistance which is negative in the strict sense of Ohm's law should
give a current in the opposite direction as the applied voltage that is
proportional to the voltage. The article does show how to make such a
device with an op amp which provide the power. Since capacitors can be
made that are closer to idea than inductors, this idea is used to make a
capacitor look like a close to ideal inductor.

Ron

Goto page Previous  1, 2

elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Electronics - 180 degrees out of phase

Ask a question - edaboard.com

Arabic version Bulgarian version Catalan version Czech version Danish version German version Greek version English version Spanish version Finnish version French version Hindi version Croatian version Indonesian version Italian version Hebrew version Japanese version Korean version Lithuanian version Latvian version Dutch version Norwegian version Polish version Portuguese version Romanian version Russian version Slovak version Slovenian version Serbian version Swedish version Tagalog version Ukrainian version Vietnamese version Chinese version Turkish version
EDAboard.com map